Underwater Projectile Weapons

[Erol of Backford]

Are there under water projectile weapons in Glorantha? Are there archaic spearguns?

I assume fire spear or sword does work but any damage bonus would be halved?

Disruption would be fine right?

What about lightening would it become an area effect weapon?

What would happen with a thunderbolt and could sunspear work and if some until how far underwater or to what level of reduced translucency?

Thoughts and thank you all.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[EricW]

The god which burns water could probably provide an underwater fire spell, but summoning the god was a feat the God Learners performed at the height of their power, so you're probably talking serious hero quest to get access to such magic.

I've no idea whether standard speed dart or true spear or whatever works underwater. I'd suggest probably not - you probably need a water magic version of those spells (true harpoon?) to work properly underwater. Though the watery version should probably be penalised if the projectile enters the air, the water gods and air gods have fought several battles. 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there under water projectile weapons in Glorantha? Are there archaic spearguns?

The Malasp have access to crossbows in the RQ3 Gloranthan Bestiary.  It could be fired above and below the water's surface.  Above, it was a normal light crossbow while below it had a range of 20m.  It seems to me that these weapons were crafted from sunken Jrusteli ruins.

[Joerg]

Living weapons might be a thing - imagine something like the larvae of the great diving beetle (IMO the inspiration for the xenomorphs in Alien) or chalk needles projected by sea urchins or nettles ejected by sea anemones or jellyfish.

Projectiles might be a lot slower, and possibly more like torpedoes.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there under water projectile weapons in Glorantha? Are there archaic spearguns?

The Aqua Iron dwarf terminators in my dwarf romp carry trident guns and black powder bang sticks.

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I assume fire spear or sword does work but any damage bonus would be halved?

I'd say not at all.

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Disruption would be fine right?

yes

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What about lightening would it become an area effect weapon?

Wouldn't work

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What would happen with a thunderbolt and could sunspear work and if some until how far underwater or to what level of reduced translucency?

I'd say no.

Generally everything works if on the surface, anything below a metre doesn't

 

[Gallowglass]

On the subject of ranged weapons, you could use something like a Hawaiian sling or a pole spear- 

[Gallowglass]

Also, for general inspiration on underwater fantasy settings (magic, equipment, etc) you could check out Cerulean Seas for the Pathfinder rpg. There’s also a new underwater setting coming out for old school essentials.

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Hawaiian sling or a pole spear

I was thinking if you are fully submerged when you shoot/throw/launch a weapon, unless its got some sort of Dwarfish energy or miniature undine it's be hindered by water?

[Gallowglass]

Just now, Erol of Backford said:

I was thinking if you are fully submerged when you shoot/throw/launch a weapon, unless its got some sort of Dwarfish energy or miniature undine it's be hindered by water?

The Hawaiian sling is designed to shoot underwater, although not very far. I think it has a range of around 30 feet? There's videos of people hunting fish with one. I think the real-life Hawaiian sling is a fairly modern invention which uses a rubber string. But maybe it's possible to make one using a sinew bow string or something. 

You could also use buoyancy to attack from range by dropping stuff from above, or using some kind of float to attack from below. I'm thinking nets, but in theory you could also do this with harpoons or maybe knives.  

The main issues underwater are drag and buoyancy, which tend to slow everything down. Magic would be the best way to attack from a distance. 

[Darius West]

On 10/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Are there under water projectile weapons in Glorantha? Are there archaic spearguns?

Crossbows can work underwater, as can bows, but not if their strings get soaked to slackness.

On 10/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I assume fire spear or sword does work but any damage bonus would be halved?

Popular wisdom suggests that fire generally goes out in water.  You can argue that a fireblade spell is supernaturally hot, and it will bubble away in the water, potentially doing reduced damage.  idk, it would be a house rule.

On 10/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Disruption would be fine right?

Yes.

On 10/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Erol of Backford said:

What about lightening would it become an area effect weapon?

What would happen with a thunderbolt

Yes, they work and become enhanced by an AoE.  Electrical discharge in water is (shocking) potentially capable of killing a lot of people.  They go off like grenades, losing 1d6 per meter from the initial target.  The Storm Gods regularly ravaged the Sea Pantheon, and this is part of why that happened.  I actually knew someone who was struck by lightning and died while swimming.  The people around him were badly shocked and burned, as well as somewhat deafened.

On 10/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Erol of Backford said:

could sunspear work and if some until how far underwater or to what level of reduced translucency?

Fire and light don't do as well against water.  I'd say sunspear loses 1d6 damage per meter of depth.  It is at best a surface spell imo.

[Erol of Backford]

19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The Storm Gods regularly ravaged the Sea Pantheon, and this is part of why that happened.

AoE will work well against mermen pirates attacking the PC's boat/ship/craft. (sorry to hear about lightening accident)

[Baron Wulfraed]

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

Popular wisdom suggests that fire generally goes out in water.  You can argue that a fireblade spell is supernaturally hot, and it will bubble away in the water, potentially doing reduced damage.  idk, it would be a house rule.

Burning magnesium and thermite.

 

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

magnesium and thermite

Is there a Gloranthian Periodic Table!?

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a Gloranthian Periodic Table!?

So long as it includes the alkali metals, you can have plenty of bathtime fun. Would Mostal have wanted it any other way?

[Baron Wulfraed]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a Gloranthian Periodic Table!?

Well... thermite is a mix of aluminum and iron oxide (rust), and we do have supposed equivalent Gloranthan metals (I presume Gloranthan "iron" is subject to rust).

Igniting the mix may take some effort (or some magic).

[Erol of Backford]

25 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

(I presume Gloranthan "iron" is subject to rust)

But not if it is tempered magically?

[JRE]

I would limit any earth special chemistry as magic, not a guarantee chemical effect. So Tanien is needed to have burning water, rather than just making thermite.

Iron rusts, and IMG it is the only runic metal that does so, by design, as dwarves know how to recover iron from rust, but nobody else does. That way iron is no good for non-dwarves. Until they discovered the magic tempering process. That slows down but does not totally avoid rust, so you must be more careful with iron than other metals.

Water is not oxygen and hydrogen that you can separate and maybeuse to breath and create fire. It is just water, and it cannot become air. But with the right magic you can breathe water.

In the same way, being supprounded in water will dampen all other elemental runes, except Darkness, its parent. and Earth, its child. So I would not allow ball lightning effects except on the water surface, the air-water interface.

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But not if it is tempered magically?

Different kinds of magic: “ordinary” magical tempering adds carbon, but for rust resistance, you need chromium (melting point 1907 °C vs. bronze’s of around 950 °C), so some high-temperature magic/alchemy is called for. How fancy-pants are your Mostali? And how cooperative?

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a Gloranthian Periodic Table!?

Yes, they're called Runes.  Everything is made on them.  The God Learners knew about their abilities to form bonds and specific densities etc.  That knowledge was lost when the Gods destroyed the Rune Quest Sight.

[Baron Wulfraed]

19 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But not if it is tempered magically?

At that point, I'd probably consider it the equivalent of (stainless) steel.

 

[Joerg]

17 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

At that point, I'd probably consider it the equivalent of (stainless) steel.

There are plenty ways to corrode this world's stainless steel, too (although I have witnessed one very tricky alloy that could only be dissolved in hydrochloric acid, but not in any oxydizing acid mixture like the laboratory go-to Aqua Regia, or even hydrogen peroxide added to hydrochloric acid).

I have often wished for hollywood or fantasy-strength acids in the lab, Dissolving solids in acid takes rather long, even if you use boiling acid. Whatever will dissolve bronze armor in a matter of melee rounds won't stop for enchanted metals of any element.

Coated or laquered metal armor will withstad acid or other corrosion for longer. Acid will still make the leather or textile used to fasten the armor brittle to the point of rending or breaking, in the real world in a couple of minutes unless hot and highly concentrated.

Hot concentrated sulphuric or phosphoric acid (above water boiling temperature) will sear away layers of skin and flesh within melee rounds, feeding on the water that can be mixed with the liquid, heating it even more, leaving nasty scars if treated immediately, or crippling the affected location. Metal will have some surface corrosion from the same amount of exposure, little more.

Galvanic elements - i.e. different metals in contact with one another, and some corroding medium - will accelerate corrosion greatly in the real world. E.g. using rivets made from (slightly) different metal.

 

There are metals that work fine under water. Copper and lead don't corrode much. Bronze and real world iron are chemically more active. The brinier the water, the more corrosive it can get - this seems to be true in Glorantha as well, with the Baths of Nelat winning the competition for briniest liquid.

With salt (chloride) added, stainless steel doesn't remain stainless, as my lab sink can attest.

[Darius West]

On 10/28/2022 at 3:19 AM, Baron Wulfraed said:

Burning magnesium and thermite.

Yes, like that only magical.  I wonder if Mostali might know about your terrifying alchemical wonders however?