Parrying in RQ2/BRP

[icebrand]

I've some issues with parrying; i'm actually using RQ2 (the classic one, not MRQ) without weapon damage rules (unless it's on purpose), but i think it's about the same in BRP sans weapon AP.

When i have an opponent whose parry + def is more than the attacker's attack, and both are over 100%, combats seems to last forever, since the defender will parry 95% of the time.

Has any of you have a workaround for this?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Not off the top of my head, but you might want to ask around the Gringle's Pawnshop forum.

[icebrand]

Yeah, did that like 2 months ago

I guess if i don't find a "fix" for that im gonna try D&D 4e! O:)O:)

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Oops. Recognise you now ...

[RosenMcStern]

Use the BRP rules. One blow in five, among weaponmasters, cannot be parried.

[Merak Gren]

I think weapon damage / parry only blocks AP in damage are important.

For example, in Stormbringer 1-4, parrying a critical would result in a broken weapon and would change the dynamic of the combat.

Also, with some variant rules you need a special parry to parry a Special attack (and same for Criticals).

I honestly can't see how a combat will last that long.

[PhilHibbs]

I've some issues with parrying; i'm actually using RQ2 (the classic one, not MRQ) without weapon damage rules (unless it's on purpose), but i think it's about the same in BRP sans weapon AP.

When i have an opponent whose parry + def is more than the attacker's attack, and both are over 100%, combats seems to last forever, since the defender will parry 95% of the time.

You could adopt the "adjust skills over 100%" rule in MRQ2 (subtract the amount that the highest skill is over 100 by) - if one is 110% and the other is 130%, then that gets adjusted down to 80% vs 100%. Then, there is a 49% chance per exchange that one of them gets a better level of success than the other.

Actually, I don't really see the original problem. With 110% vs 130%, there is already a 20.77% or 24.5% chance per exchange that the attacker gets a better level of success than the defender depending on who's attacking. Something interesting happens 1 time in 5 - either an impaled weapon stuck in a parrying shield, or a critical hit that probably does enough damage to get some of it past the shield (average 13 for most decent weapons plus bladesharp plus damage modifier). Hm, actually shields can be pretty tough, a large shield blocks 16, so most crits with a 1h weapon will bounce off. Maybe I do see the problem.

Going back to my original calculation, given that a successful parry will block a crit... that brings even the MRQ2 rule fix down to a 4% chance vs a 19% chance. Well, that's not too bad, but if they are both 120% then it could still drag on (4.75% chance each). Oh, but an Impale vs a Parry robs the attacker of their weapon still. That could be fun, although the "I did better than you but came off worse" thing is a bit of a kicker.

I think that RQ2 shields block too much damage. Maybe knock them down from 8, 12, 16 to 6, 9, 12.

Edited November 30, 2010 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

On RQ2, parrying weapon only gets damaged if attacked by a sword or similar. I just dropped damage to parrying weapons (so i dont have to track weapon HP most of the time), basically making swords work like every other weapon; but let's stick to RAW for the example.

Two mace-wielding uz face each other.

Pikathulhu the Death Lord has 130% mace attack and 110% mace parry, with 10% defense.

Nyartholepy the Karrg's Son has 110% mace attack and 130% mace parry, with 15% defense.

So, Pikathulhu has an effective chance to hit of 115%, bringing Nyartholepy's parry down to 115%.

Nyartholepy has an effective chance to hit of 100%, leaving Pikathulhu's parry unmodified at 110%.

Both know a lot of dismiss magic, so either we won't count spells.

Basically (you may add as much magic as you want) this is scenario is the result of (defender parry + def) - (attacker's attack -100) = > 100.

The Uz will bash at each other, round after round, untill someone 96-00's their parry or 00's their attack. Even then, it may result in minor damage after armor, and/or beeing quickly healed by them or their allied spirit with magic.

This makes combat preety dull, and it's not a "weird case", it seems it comes up quite a lot with skills over 100%. Workarounds are using magic, spirits, 2-on-1 combat, etc, but it does not fix the base problem.

Using the BRP rules may prove interesting, since a parried crit becomes a slash/impale/crush, a special parry brings the crit to a normal hit, etc. It misses on those "max dmg ignoring armor that kills your character" results, but i don't think that's actually a bad thing. Also, a natural critical parried to a special may opt to ignore armor instead of slashing/impaling/crushing.

The only problem i see is that i lose the "% over 100 lowers opponent parry" of RQ2, and i really like that.

maybe i should

a) keep it as is, and calculate special / critical success based on unmodified % (140% attack vs 120% parry is 100% with 28 special, 7 crit vs 80% with 24 special, 6 crit)

go the MRQ2 way and just leave the highest skill at 100% and diminishing the other by the margin, using normal special / crit chance.

What do you guys think?

Edited November 30, 2010 by icebrand

[PhilHibbs]

I should probably delete this, as it didn't add anything to the discussion, but I can't find a Delete option.

Edited December 1, 2010 by PhilHibbs

[RosenMcStern]

a)

I have never used THAT rule even in MRQ2, and it always worked fine for me.

[Mugen]

What about stealing some bits from MRQ2 ?

For instance, state that if success level is the same and Attack roll is greater than Parry roll, only half damage is parried (maybe more with a shield).

[deleriad]

go the MRQ2 way and just leave the highest skill at 100% and diminishing the other by the margin, using normal special / crit chance.

already happens in RQ2 effectively. Remember that a parry is reduced by the attacker's percentage over 100. If you were to replace that with the MRQII rule you actually slightly worsen the problem.

E.g. in RQ2 115 attack vs 110 parry ends up as 115 attack vs 95% parry. IN MRQII It becomes 100% attack vs 95% parry.

Bottom line is that if you have two combatants with almost equal skills and both over 95% then you may wait a long time for a missed parry.

Given that you want to stay as close to RQ2 as possible and don't want to track weapon breakage the quickest fix I can see is expanding the results of specials and criticals vs a parry.

Special attack success vs normal parry is the same as normal success vs failed parry

critical attack vs special parry: same as normal success vs failed parry

critical attack vs normal parry: same as special success vs failed parry.

That way you'll get something happening much more quickly.

[PhilHibbs]

What about stealing some bits from MRQ2 ?

For instance, state that if success level is the same and Attack roll is greater than Parry roll, only half damage is parried (maybe more with a shield).

I haven't spotted that rule in MRQ2!

[Mugen]

I haven't spotted that rule in MRQ2!

Yes, but you can easily find the rules in MRQ2 which I used as an inspiration for this one

[PhilHibbs]

Yes, but you can easily find the rules in MRQ2 which I used as an inspiration for this one

Ah I see. Yes, I had considered implementing something to do with comparing relative success vs success with attack/parry. But it seemed quite a big change, giving the equivalent of a "Bypass Parry" manoeuvre on success v success.

Edited December 1, 2010 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

Given that you want to stay as close to RQ2 as possible and don't want to track weapon breakage the quickest fix I can see is expanding the results of specials and criticals vs a parry.

Special attack success vs normal parry is the same as normal success vs failed parry

critical attack vs special parry: same as normal success vs failed parry

critical attack vs normal parry: same as special success vs failed parry.

That way you'll get something happening much more quickly.

I like it a lot!!! Maybe on a crit vs normal the attacker may choose between ignoring armor (crit result) and normal damage OR special damage?

Also, shields still block with AP, so shields give a more reliable defense, but weapons can deflect potentially more damage!!!

The only problem i still see (and its the same on basic RQ2 rules) is that you can effectively parry a giant!

[PhilHibbs]

The only problem i still see (and its the same on basic RQ2 rules) is that you can effectively parry a giant!

The way MRQ2 solves this is with weapon size - Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Enormous. If the attacking weapon is one size larger than the parrying weapon, only half the damage is blocked. If it is two sizes smaller, you have to crit and pick "Enhance Parry" which makes your weapon count as two sizes larger for parrying purposes. So even then, a dagger (S) can't parry a tree, but it could parry a poleaxe (L).

[deleriad]

The only problem i still see (and its the same on basic RQ2 rules) is that you can effectively parry a giant!

That's probably GM fiat time rather than a rule. Alternately I can't remember if RQ2 had incidental knockback rules. If not, then it's standard in RQ to say that for every 5 damage over a person's SIZ they get knocked back 1m. E.g. SIZ 14, damage 21 equals 2m of knockback. Parrying a giant may result in taking more damage from the knockback than the attack.

[icebrand]

That's probably GM fiat time rather than a rule. Alternately I can't remember if RQ2 had incidental knockback rules. If not, then it's standard in RQ to say that for every 5 damage over a person's SIZ they get knocked back 1m. E.g. SIZ 14, damage 21 equals 2m of knockback. Parrying a giant may result in taking more damage from the knockback than the attack.

Nopes, no incidental KB on RQ2.

Weapon sizes are cool, but they kind of shaft (even more) characters that don't use 2H weapons...

Maybe use SIZ ranges? like 10 > 30 > whatever ?

[PhilHibbs]

Nopes, no incidental KB on RQ2.

There are many improvements and fixes that have been made to the RuneQuest system since 1980. I loved Chaosium RQ2, but I could never go back to it because of all the fixes that I would have to pick through and apply to solve all the problems that I could simply avoid by starting with a more modern incarnation of the rule system.

[icebrand]

There are many improvements and fixes that have been made to the RuneQuest system since 1980. I loved Chaosium RQ2, but I could never go back to it because of all the fixes that I would have to pick through and apply to solve all the problems that I could simply avoid by starting with a more modern incarnation of the rule system.

Thing is, i find most of the "fixes" detrimental to gameplay. We really don't care about fatigue, unintentional knockback, sorcery, and all that crap that came later. BRP is another story and i DO like it a lot!

[Trifletraxor]

If both are over 100%, start splitting attacks. That will do it.

SGL.

[Al.]

If both are over 100%, start splitting attacks. That will do it.

SGL.

"Oh no it won't" ('tis panto season after all)

One cannot split attacks against the same target (without a houserule)

[icebrand]

So far im using:

• MRQ2 rules for %'s over 100% (highest skill rolls 100, the opponent rolls with whatever is left as penalty)

• BRP "special hit vs normal parry becomes normal hit" and so on

• Fire & Sword / MRQ2 combat maneuver mix

Need to playtest still, but looks decent on paper! I'll post them when i finish with it (i need to finisish copying / ripping off riding rules and then i'm done with my RQ2 monster)

[Trifletraxor]

"Oh no it won't" ('tis panto season after all)

One cannot split attacks against the same target (without a houserule)

Then it's time for a houserule!