Subcults, Hero cults and Associate cults.....

[Akhôrahil]

53 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

So, for clarity, in the case of a given Sartarite follower of Barntar or Heler, would the follower of the subservient cult be classified as an initiate of Barntar/Heler who worships as a part of the Orlanth Thunderous cult (as there is no independent cult), or are they instead an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous in a subordinate aspect like Orlanth Adventurous’s Four Magic Weapons?

Barntar is a separate subcult, I believe - of Orlanth, not a sub-cult of OT (which would make it a sub-sub-cult of Orlanth).

Heler likely has little separate worship from OT in most places, and is just the source of Rain for OT, although I’m sure he gets represented in ceremonies.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Yes; my point is the fact that they both worship same deity that is significant here, not their status as subcults in the sense of .p282 of RQ:G.

I think they are. I mean, they are the only subcults described in the book (well, Elmal, but that’s really a variant cult and not a subcult) - it would be super weird if the only subcults in the book didn’t follow the rules for subcults.

You join one at character creation, and can learn spells from it and the overarching Orlanth cult. You can join the other for 1 RP, and then you can learn spells from it. The Rune Pool is shared. I can’t see what p. 282 rules wouldn’t apply.

There are cases where separate cults worship the same entity, but that’s not the case with OA/OT - they are both part of the Orlanth cult, as subcults. They are unusual in how big and important they are compared to most small subcults, but that’s it.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[radmonger]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean, they are the only subcults described in the book (well, Elmal, but that’s really a variant cult and not a subcult)

p295: Eurmal has countless subcults

p300; Odayla is often worshipped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult.

26 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

it would be super weird of the only subcults in the book didn’t follow the rules for subcults.

p289; A subcult is a smaller and often local version of a cult, which worships a local variant of the deity, a minor god subservient to the deity, an ancient hero, family ancestors, or an obscure spirit surviving from the godtime.

None of which apply to any of the Orlanth 'subcults', with the arguable exception of Vinga (but don't let her hear you call her 'subservient').

It may well be that the rules are not using fully consistent terminology...

35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You can join the other for 1 RP, and then you can learn spells from it.

 Not quite how I understand it. You can, if permitted, learn a subcult spell by sacrificing 1 pow, which increases your cult rune pool by 1.  This is not 'join' and then 'learn' ; you don't pay twice. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

28 minutes ago, radmonger said:

p295: Eurmal has countless subcults

Good point about this - it technically doesn’t matter one bit as Eurmal also only has shrines anyway, though.

Odayla looks like an editing slip, as there are then no rules for it. If it provided all spells as a subcult, then there would be no need (from a player’s perspective) for the Odayla cult, really.

You pay one POW to join, earn your first Rune Point, and learn your first spell in a subcult. Just as in any stand-alone cult. Following this, you can learn the rest of the subcult’s spells the usual ways, again the same way as in stand-alone cults (often but not necessarily through further POW sacrifices).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[hipsterinspace]

35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Barntar is a separate subcult, I believe - of Orlanth, not a sub-cult of OT (which would make it a sub-sub-cult of Orlanth).

Heler likely has little separate worship from OT in most places, and is just the source of Rain for OT, although I’m sure he gets represented in ceremonies.

In some of the posts on Well of Daliath Jeff has said things to the effect of Barntar being specifically an aspect of Orlanth Thunderous, that he is unambiguously Orlanth. There are fewer mechanical questions with that because all of Orlanth’s subcults share a rune pool anyway. I saw a post by David somewhere on the forum that laid out the most straightforward way to represent Barntar as Thunderous with Tame Bull (already available as an associate), Plow, and Command Cattle.

As for Heler, I suppose the big question is whether someone who is a self-styled Heler follower in Dragon Pass is a full Heler initiate who is part of the rites of Orlanth Thunderous (or whatever river god in the other case) as an associate out of necessity due to lack of an independent cult infrastructure, a (sub-)subcult that is integrated into the secret rites of the main cult, or whether it truly is just the Rain associate spell and there are no initiates.

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

In some of the posts on Well of Daliath Jeff has said things to the effect of Barntar being specifically an aspect of Orlanth Thunderous, that he is unambiguously Orlanth. There are fewer mechanical questions with that because all of Orlanth’s subcults share a rune pool anyway.

It will make the difference between Subcult Barntar only being available if you’re already part of OT, or to any Orlanth initiate, potentially as their only subcult (although since subcults are essentially free anyway, this restriction would be minimal in practice).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

So, for clarity, in the case of a given Sartarite follower of Barntar or Heler, would the follower of the subservient cult be classified as an initiate of Barntar/Heler who worships as a part of the Orlanth Thunderous cult (as there is no independent cult), or are they instead an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous in a subordinate aspect like Orlanth Adventurous’s Four Magic Weapons?

They are an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous. They use their Orlanth Rune pool to cast the magic.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

They are an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous. They use their Orlanth Rune pool to cast the magic.

Was the ”oh no, we worship Barntar here, not Orlanth!” thing during the occupation actually worshiping Barntar in the stand-alone cult, or just joining the Barntar subsubcult and pushing the Barntar parts forwards (especially where the Lunars could see it) while still maintaining Orlanth worship under this cover?

The former is what’s done in Lunar Tarsh by my understanding, but was it also the Sartarite practice? Or possibly both in different places, depending on your inclinations?

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Was the ”oh no, we worship Barntar here, not Orlanth!” thing during the occupation actually worshiping Barntar in the stand-alone cult, or just joining the Barntar subsubcult and pushing the Barntar parts forwards (especially where the Lunars could see it) while still maintaining Orlanth worship under this cover?

The former is what’s done in Lunar Tarsh by my understanding, but was it also the Sartarite practice? Or possibly both in different places, depending on your inclinations?

They were Orlanth worshippers to start with. So they outwardly just worshipped Barntar. I see no reason to fiddle with the rules. I'd suggest reading the post on Suppression of Orlanth Under the Lunar Empire. There was much less actual hostility than you (possibly) imagine. Lunar soldiers and officials were likely familiar with Barntar in the Empire, and the accoutrements of worship were likely similar in Sartar. The mobile shrines of Orlanth Adventurous were I suggest always one step ahead of any patrols, and what happened on various hilltops were likely not seen either. Fixed temples were much more likely the focus of an examples that were made.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

They are an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous. They use their Orlanth Rune pool to cast the magic.

 

And what about Odayla as a subcult of Orlanth ? Do they use the Orlanth Rune pool ? Do they have access to the common spells of both Thunderous and Adventurous/Vinga ?

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And what about Odayla as a subcult of Orlanth ? Do they use the Orlanth Rune pool ?

Ruleswise, yes.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do they have access to the common spells of both Thunderous and Adventurous/Vinga ?

Only to the common. To get access to Thunderous restricted spells, you need to spend 1 POW to become member. Same for Adventurous/Vinga.

[radmonger]

7 minutes ago, Kloster said:

To get access to Thunderous restricted spells, you need to spend 1 POW to become member.

 

Which gets you a spell and RP. This is exactly the same procedure as getting a spell that is _not_ from a subcult.

The real restriction is something like you need to be a mature adult and responsible member of the community. one who can be expected to be here in 5 years time. Because when the crops are at risk, you want the guys who you have invested your community magical resources in to be here. And not fighting down in Whitewall, or wherever.

I suspect this is not so much a formal thing with a test as the guy responsible for scheduling rune spell ceremonies choosing to prioritize who they run them for.

Some communities so little value one or more aspects of the god that they never run those ceremonies. This corresponds to a certain minor temple 'not providing' that spell.

A fully-dedicated Barntar temple has lots of priests who value the agriculture aspects of Orlanth. They all spend their time running farming ceremonies, and maintaining shrines to Barntar's agricultural associates. And they maybe have one junior priest whose role is to keep the young men busy, and send the violent young men far away.

A nominally-Barntar temple in occupied Sartar will have a lot of priests who were trained when violence was not so much an option as a necessity. When producing more crops that you could eat was just an invitation for your neighbors to come and take them. And then maybe one true convert who is serious about the potential for magically-improved crop yields. Much of their time and energy goes into working out how best to hide certain shrines, and how to hold certain ceremonies in secret.

The rather clever thing about the lunar plan is that high taxes create a requirement for agricultural surplus, and military occupation creates a disincentive for raiding those producing that surplus. So, over time, the latter type of temple will become the former. And because Barntar _is_ Orlanth, noone needs to leave a cult for this to happen.

Though some will no doubt say the cult left them.

 

 

 

[hipsterinspace]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

They are an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous. They use their Orlanth Rune pool to cast the magic.

Do they gain access to the unique magic of Barntar or Heler this way, or are they restricted to Thunderous’s magic and the associate spells of Tame Bull and Rain respectively unless they find a place where the independent cult exists and initiate fully?

[radmonger]

10 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Do they gain access to the unique magic of Barntar or Heler this way, or are they restricted to Thunderous’s magic and the associate spells of Tame Bull and Rain respectively unless they find a place where the independent cult exists and initiate fully?

Barntar yes, because Barntar is Orlanth. Heler no, because Heler is not Orlanth.

if the lunar plans had come to fruition, they wouldn't have to find such a place; the place will come to them. As the last old and bitter priests die out, their local temple will becomes increasingly Barntar-led. New priests will emerge, who will add new shrines, acquire new ritual objects, succeed in new minor heroquests. Existing initiations will remain in good standing, because why wouldn't they? So their Rune Pool would carry over, and all spells they knew would remain renewable . 

It would just be increasingly difficult to learn magic that supported the old ways. Maybe you would have to earn the trust of the old man living on his own outside town, Maybe you would have to dig out the ritual regalia from where they were buried, or make new ones. People would tell you 'if you wan to learn to fly, go to the Imperial flight academy'.

Maybe there would be a princess of the old royal line who regarded you as their only hope?

 

 

[hipsterinspace]

33 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Barntar yes, because Barntar is Orlanth. Heler no, because Heler is not Orlanth.

The line with Heler seems to blur with each response, I think it's a relevant question of what degree being cast as an "accessory to Orlanth" along the lines of Lightning Boy integrates the cult, whether they do share a rune pool and secret rites. I suppose we'll find out more about their thinking with the cults book when it eventually comes out. While Heler does have an independent mythology, the degree to which that's integrated into Orlanth as a subservient entity seems relevant. I'm genuinely curious to what extent a line exists and where that line is for the people writing the game.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

Ruleswise, yes.

Only to the common. To get access to Thunderous restricted spells, you need to spend 1 POW to become member. Same for Adventurous/Vinga.

mmm not sure at all . It depends how you interpret the rules (for me the rules then are only rqg core rules book, as we.. or at least I... have not yet the cults books) :

your version : the common spells are for all Orlanthi subcults. If Odayla is a Orlanthi subcult, it must have the common spells

my version : the common spells are for all Orlanthi subcults listed in the chapter, aka Thunderous, Adventurous and Vinga

 

and, in the rules, their is no common spells of Orlanth in the list of spells the cult of Odayla proposes

 

maybe the cults books will clarify it in a way or another, but at the end of the day I would consider weird to have the cult of Odayla with all the bear hunter magic and the subcult of Orlanth-Odayla with all the bear hunter magic AND the Orlanth common spells. 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me the rules then are only rqg core rules book

Agreed. This is currently the only rule book. The Red Book of Magic is borderline.

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

your version : the common spells are for all Orlanthi subcults. If Odayla is a Orlanthi subcult, it must have the common spells

my version : the common spells are for all Orlanthi subcults listed in the chapter, aka Thunderous, Adventurous and Vinga

My version is the rule for all subcults, whatever the main cult.

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and, in the rules, their is no common spells of Orlanth in the list of spells the cult of Odayla proposes

Yes, there is a big advantage of being initiate of odayla as being a subcult of Orlanth compared to Odayla as a standalone cult. In addition, IIRC, you can be a shaman of Odayla, meaning you can be a shaman of Orlanth (through the subcult). I think it normal, as the cult is larger and tge god more powerful.

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And what about Odayla as a subcult of Orlanth ? Do they use the Orlanth Rune pool ?

Yes.

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do they have access to the common spells of both Thunderous and Adventurous/Vinga ?

No. If you join Orlanth subcult of Odayla, you must as with all other subcults, pay a Rune point to join other subcults to access their Rune magic. So a Thunderous member must pay a Rune point to join Adventurous, and vice-versa

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Do they gain access to the unique magic of Barntar or Heler this way, or are they restricted to Thunderous’s magic and the associate spells of Tame Bull and Rain respectively unless they find a place where the independent cult exists and initiate fully?

So in these examples, it's always going to be limited by their temple size (see RQG 284), and what Rune spells the cult offers:

Barntar has three special Rune spells: Command Bull, Plow, and Tame Bull

• In the Lunar provinces where Orlanth is suppressed, Bartar is an autonomous cult with temples in Ernalda temples.
  • A minor temple provides access to all (3) special Rune spells known to the cult.
• In Orlanthi lands, Bartar is a subservient cult or subcult of Orlanth Thunderous, or subcult of Orlanth.
  • If the subcult is present at the (minor+) temple, all (3) subcult Rune spells are available.
• In Esrolia, Barntar is a subcult of Orlanth and Ernalda
  • If the subcult is present at the (minor+) temple, all (3) subcult Rune spells are available.
• Barntar is only an associate of Orlanth & Ernalda where not obvious above (and no others)
  • If the associate cult shrine is present in the (major+) temple. One spell is taught (of two available).

 

Heler has three special Rune spells: Flood, Flight, and Rain. 

• Heler is normally a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous (shrines in Great and many major temples)
  • as subservient cult, access to all (3) special Rune spells are available.
• or where Orlanth is less important, a subservient cult of the river god
  • as subservient cult, access to all (3) special Rune spells are available (where there is a shrine)
• Heler is an independent cult usually only at headwaters
  • Special rune magics available per temple size.
• Heler is only an associate of Orlanth and River gods where not obvious above. But is an associate of Triolina (lover/brother).
  • If the associate cult shrine is present in the (major+) temple. One spell is taught.

Edited February 2, 2023 by David Scott

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Heler has three special Rune spells: Flood, Flight, and Rain. 

• Heler is normally a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous (shrines in Great and many major temples)
  • as subservient cult, access to all (3) special Rune spells are available.

Available to whom? Heler cultists obviously, but do they provide all three of these to Orlanth (Thunderous) cultists? Asking because "subservient cult" doesn't have a rules definition in the rulebook AFAIK. Essentially, what's the difference between subcult and subservient cult? I think I'm reading you as the subservient cult providing all its magic to the "boss" cult, but then what's the practical difference to a subcult?

Edited February 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[hipsterinspace]

Additionally, if the subservient cult offers all of its magic and secrets to the main cult, what rationale would there be for anyone to ever seek out and initiate into it as an independent cult?

[radmonger]

With 'subservient cults', i guess the goal is to have a subcult-like thing to which the subcult rules do not apply? Which rather begs the question of why the subcult rules exist in the first place.

I do think it would be much clearer to talk about something like the following;

• deities, and their aspects and associations.
• cults, and their ranks, temples, and shrines.

So if Heler is an aspect of Engizi, then that means an Engizi temple either does or does not support that aspect, with larger ones being more likely to. Wheras given Heler is an associate of Orlanth, then that means a temple may or may not support a Heler shrine. With, again, larger ones being more likely to. 

if you initiate at a temple, you have access to all spells supplied by that temple and attached shrines, except where restricted by rank. if two temples are part of the same cult, they mutually recognize each others initiates.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

No. If you join Orlanth subcult of Odayla, you must as with all other subcults, pay a Rune point to join other subcults to access their Rune magic. So a Thunderous member must pay a Rune point to join Adventurous, and vice-versa

Thanks David, however my question may have been not very clear :

What I call the "common spells of Orlanth" : Dismiss Air Elemental (small or medium only), Increase/Decrease Wind, Summon Air Elemental (small or medium only), Summons of Evil, and Wind Warp available to all subcults.  

Then do the Odayla subcult of Orlanth provides these spells ? (like Thunderous and Adventurous. Of course the specific of each subcult needs a dedicated initiation)

[Akhôrahil]

14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What I call the "common spells of Orlanth" : Dismiss Air Elemental (small or medium only), Increase/Decrease Wind, Summon Air Elemental (small or medium only), Summons of Evil, and Wind Warp available to all subcults.  

Then do the Odayla subcult of Orlanth provides these spells ? (like Thunderous and Adventurous. Of course the specific of each subcult needs a dedicated initiation)

It's probably less confusing if you don't call them "common", as this normally is about the specific list of Common Rune Magic that doesn't include these spells.

But since you get the spells you listed (perhaps we can call them "standard Orlanth Rune Spells"?) from being in Orlanth, regardless of subcult, surely any member of any Orlanth subcult has access to them?

Edited February 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

39 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What I call the "common spells of Orlanth" : Dismiss Air Elemental (small or medium only), Increase/Decrease Wind, Summon Air Elemental (small or medium only), Summons of Evil, and Wind Warp available to all subcults.  

Then do the Odayla subcult of Orlanth provides these spells ? (like Thunderous and Adventurous. Of course the specific of each subcult needs a dedicated initiation)

As they are described in RQG as being available to all subcults (instead of being noted in each subcult description), they should be available to Odayla cultists worshiping trhrough Orlanth.