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Subcults, Hero cults and Associate cults.....


Agentorange

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So, I have been reading about these and remain somewhat confused. the  rules tell us that subcults have no existence out side of the main deity they are subordinate to. hero cults and associate cults don't have this  restriction ?

In the following example which of the above am I dealing with.

Imagine an earth deity, lets call him Ditch Digging Boy. ( DDB) he is an ancient hero of the earth pantheon

In Esrolia DDB is widely worshipped, there are independent shrines to him  all over the place, and he is worshipped by all sorts of people - not just  earth worshippers.

However by the time you get to Sartar his worship is very confined. His shrines are only to be found inside Ernalda temples and nowhere else. Indeed only Ernaldan cultists bother to worship him and his worship only take place within the Ernaldan temples.

is he a subcult, an associate cult, a hero cult....some of the above, all of the above ?

Edited by Agentorange
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An associated cult is one that has a separate existence but is also worshiped by another cult. Nearly every cult is an associate of another, usually several.

A subcult has no existence outside of its parent cult. Orlanth Adventurous and Yelm the Archer are subcults.

A hero cult is a mortal who's ascended to godhood. They can either be subcults or full cults. The groups that form around mortal heroes might also classify, but their magic (if any) doesn't come from the hero.

Your example would be a cult who is also an associate of Ernalda. He has his own magic and cult, but also provides some to Ernalda worshipers who sacrifice to him.

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It's entirely dependent on the local/regional factors

Note that subservient cults are part of the main cult, so no need to join. Subcults and hero cults are separate and cost a point of POW to join.

eg:

  • In the Lunar provinces where Orlanth is suppressed, Bartar is an autonomous cult with temples in Ernalda temples. 
  • In Orlanthi lands, Bartar is a subservient cult or subcult of Orlanth Thunderous, or subcult of Orlanth
  • In Esrolia, Barntar is a subcult of Orlanth and Ernalda
  • Barntar is only an associate of Orlanth & Ernalda where not obvious above (and no others)

 

  • Heler is normally a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous (shrines in Great and many major temples)
  • or where Orlanth is less important, a subservient cult of the river god
  • Heler is an independent cult usually only at headwaters
  • Heler is only an associate of Orlanth and River gods where not obvious above. But is an associate of Triolina (lover/brother).

 

 

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If the above responses haven't helped (enough) to clarify, then perhaps consider it from the following perspective:

Remove the word 'cult', and replace it with 'entity'. (the word 'cult' merely means 'a group of people have decided to worship an entity'.... and some people will worship anything!)

Now, is the entity very big and powerful, perhaps even to the extent of being the personification of an elemental force? If so, then it's a deity (aka, 'god' (leaving aside genders here)).

Such deities have stories from the Godtime, and for various reasons, people worship them. Those deities had relationships with other deities... friends, lovers, children, etc. Some of those deities are also worshipped. Some of those friends have their own cults (eg, Yinkin to Orlanth, the various Earth deities, Orlanth and Ernalda). Sometimes a deity will have a story where they are not being typically themselves, and sort of playing (eg, one interpretation of Vinga, or the various aspects of Yelmalio/Elmal/etc).

IF they're big enough to have their own direct worship, then they're associated. If they only get worshipped as a friend of the main deity, or when the deity is 'in disguise', then it's a sub-cult - because it makes absolutely no sense to have them worshipped otherwise... well, usually. There's always exceptions, especially when the other stories are completely unknown in a region).

 

Some mortals are heroes. Some heroes apotheosize,. and become gods. Most heroes do so by emulating the deeds of their god, and thus would be a sub-cult . Other heroes do heroic deeds outside of the boundaries of the cult (if they even belonged to one). And so, they'd get worshipped as a deity all on their own (eg, Arkat).

 

Unfortunately, the ambiguity (fickleness?) of the deities means that some of their deeds get lost, or confused with others, or... whatever. And so trying to fit one deity's deeds to fit another's doesn't always nice straight lines... Which, in a world like Glorantha, I find a bit confusing.... surely a simple Divination to ask the question "Hey my god, did you actually do this yourself, or was it someone else?" should sort it out... but, apparently not!)

 

 

TL;DR (or don't like mansplaining) - ignore the cult aspect, focus on the entity and its place in the universe)

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On 1/30/2023 at 10:20 AM, Agentorange said:

However by the time you get to Sartar his worship is very confied. His shrines are only to be found inside Ernalda temples and nowhere else. Indeed only Ernaldan cultists bother to worship him and his worship only take place within the Ernaldan temples.

is he a subcult, an associate cult, a hero cult....some of the above, all of the above ?

I offer this definitional clarification, but it is only my opinion on this sticky problem Agentorange...

Hero cults relate to powerful exponents of a given cult who have achieved a unique power AFTER TIME BEGAN.  They aren't gods, but they are important within the cult.  DDB, given his name doesn't sound like one of these, even if he was once a human hero.  His non-personal name suggests that he is a Pre-time hero to me.

Sub-Cults are totally subordinate to the primary deity.  Their worship rituals are not performed outside the primary deity's temple and form a kind of secret initiation.  While the sub-cult is demonstrably not the same as the cult of the primary deity, it doesn't really exist except in reference to the primary deity any longer.  A classic example is Orlanth's 4 magic weapons.  While Lightning Boy is a separate god to Orlanth and the source of his lightning, he is now just a power within Orlanth's worship system, and nobody else has access.  Back to the DDB example, because of his independent Esrolian temple, DDB is not an Ernaldan subcult, not least of which being because DDB is a boy, and Ernalda is a female cult.

Associated Cults are cults where separate deities share their power within their pantheon, based on the relationships the deities formed Before Time (or post God Learners, but having mentioned it, let's not open that can of worms).  For our purposes Mastakos is a good example.  Mastakos was captured and subjugated from the Water Pantheon by Orlanth.  Mastakos is not a subcult like Lightning Boy however, for despite having to provide not 1 but 2 high powered Rune Spells to Orlanth, and serving as his chariot driver, Mastakos is still independently worshiped, has his own separate temples (water folk, and perhaps Larnstings), and even reserves powers which Orlanthi cannot get via the association (shapechanging).  Following these rules, DDB is therefore an associated cult imo.

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44 minutes ago, Darius West said:

While the sub-cult is demonstrably not the same as the cult of the primary deity, it doesn't really exist except in reference to the primary deity any longer.

This is a bit confusing - especially the first part. (not that the RQG makes it especially clear).

Can you be in Orlanth and not a part of one of the listed sub-cults? Especially if you're female!\

And, if you've initiated into Barntar in one part of the world, as a separate deity in their own right, are you also automatically an initiate of Orlanth in the rest of the world?

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What i think helps it to write out the relationship in full. for example;

In the temple of Ernalda at Earthtown, Ditch Digging Boy is worshiped at a shrine that;

  1. teaches the spell carry load to initiates of Ernalda 
  2. allows initiates of Ditch Digging Boy to regain all their rune magic.

So at this temple, Ditch Digging Boy is an associated cult of Ernalda. The temple over in Dirttown doesn't have that shrine, so there, both points don't apply. However, Ernalda is a unified cult. So an Ernalda initiate from Dirttown can travel to Earthtown and be both magically and politically recognized as such. So they can learn the spell there, under clause 1.

Under clause 2, an initiate from the Ditch Digging Boy temple in Ditchville can visit, learn that spell if they didn't know it, and regain their full spell list. If the cults are politically friendly this is a routine courtesy. If they are hostile, it would have to be more a matter of an enforced demand.

In Dirttown, there is instead a shrine to Water Carrying Girl, who is a subcult of Ernalda. There are currently no temples to Water Carrying Girl anywhere in the world; the last one burnt down at the end of the second age. Consequently, there are no initiates of Dirt Carrying Girl in existence. If one somehow showed up, then politically they would likely not be believed by the cult hierarchy. But if they got as far as a getting to take a magical test (e.g. someone asking via divination), then they would in fact pass.

 

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It's really interesting how subcults are the most "optimized" - it costs you no extra time or money to join them, and you don't need a dedicated Rune Point Pool, but you still get all their spells. Stand-alone cult require time, money and dedicated Rune Points, and Associated Cults merely provide one spell. Subcults is the porridge that's just right. 🙂

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is a bit confusing - especially the first part. (not that the RQG makes it especially clear).

Can you be in Orlanth and not a part of one of the listed sub-cults? Especially if you're female!\

And, if you've initiated into Barntar in one part of the world, as a separate deity in their own right, are you also automatically an initiate of Orlanth in the rest of the world?

Okay, to say it in other words.  Without the primary deity, the subcults couldn't exist.  Lightning boy is on the cusp of this, being an entity in his own right, but the sandals of darkness are just objects, for example.

As to the second question, the current interpretation is that Vinga is just Orlanth as a female.  Thus it is assumed that all Orlanth Adventurous initiates get subcult initiation too.  On the other hand, given that Ernalda doesn't let men join her cult in any officiating role, why does Vinga get such royal treatment by Orlanth?

While Barntar is a Thunder Brother, he is also a deity in his own right.  If you are a Barntar initiate, you are not automatically an Orlanth initiate, but that being said, if you are a Barntar initiate, you effectively get a "90% off deal" on your Orlanth initiation imo.  We know that many Orlanthi hide their colors from the Lunars by "becoming Barntar worshipers", as Barntar is perceived as a peaceful cult, but they can re-initiate as Orlanthi without any difficulty, possibly as part of a midnight ceremony where the whole clan flips its colors prior to an uprising.

These are good questions Shiningbrow.  The fact is, the Thunder Brothers  and their cults are pretty equivocal.  Are they post-time hero cults that have been retro-engineered into pre-time subcults, possibly via God Learner interference?  I seriously hope that the forthcoming Gods of Glorantha supplement explains these issues to everyone's satisfaction.

Edited by Darius West
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how complex are this question and their answers !  😛

 

from my perspective, I make a big difference between cults and gods. cults are people organizations. Gods are ...individuals with a lot of powers.

Some gods are so complex than when you worship them you may not know all their stories, feats and even names.

What you call Sun and worship it, could be called Hot Star by others, and "another others" would say, or know, that "Sun" is only a part of the great emperor of Light and Heat.

Then I consider that a god has several aspects, dedicated to some activities. Of course (in my opinion) their is no myth, and no "true" action where two aspects of the same god meet themselves.

For example Heler and Vinga are not two aspects of Orlanth, because Heler meet others aspects of Orlanth. Heler is a god by his own.

that means, but some will disagree, that if Adventurous and Vinga are in the same story well.. Vinga is a goddess by her own, and that's fine for me. Even if she is a "fork" of the primal Orlanth, she has the right to be called goddess.

Then we have the gods and the aspects of the gods. That the "reality" of (mine) Godtime citizen.

 

What about Hero, great Spirits, big Dryads,etc  ? well they are citizen of the godtime/hero plan now, so they ares probaly just weaker than a majority of gods, no other difference for me

 

Now the cult

A cult is a community of people with a hierarchy (archi priest, priests, rune lords , etc...) worshipping one god or a "group of gods"

However a cult may not know all the aspects of a god, for many mundane reasons. And this lack of knowledge may create some religious debate, schism, etc.. (Yelmalio, Elmal, for example).

What a cult propose is the knowledge of some aspects of the group of gods.

Sometimes, there are different aspects with so different ways of life, values, etc... And depending of the "distance" between two aspects you may have to sacrify a part of your soul power to join and understand another one. That is called subcults

 

Of course a god (or a Hero, a dryad, etc...) can be found in different cults, under the leadership of different other gods, or independant in some places (and no exclusivity then)

 

For example

the seven mothers cult (rqg core rules at least) is one cult of seven gods. Worshipping the seven mothers means you know some aspects of each of these seven gods. Maybe there are other aspects, maybe somewhere you will find a cult of only one of this god, with more aspects, or not (we will see with the gods book). But based on the 7M core rules, you need to be initiated once then you have access to all the spells proposed by the cult.

 

 

the yelmalio cult is one cult of the god Yelmalio and some of his heroes (Kushile, ...) you need to be initiated once then you have acces to all the rune spells proposed by the cult (and for the spirit magicn you have some restriction with Kushile)

 

the ultra complex orlanth cult... maybe cults, with a s because is it only one ?

Focusing of my understanding of the rqg core rules book and in this forum*, the Orlanth cult in Sartar worships a lot of gods. The cult worships Orlanth with all the aspects sartarites know, but also worships the god Heler, the god Odayla*, Barntar... etc... And because the cult of Orlanth proposes radical way of life, very different secrets and powers, the cult is organized in subcults:

  • the thunderous aspect, proposing the "standard Orlanth" powers and some dedicated powers
  • the adventurous aspect, proposing the "standard Orlanth" powers and some dedicated powers, same for Vinga
  • the Heler, orlanth friend aspect, proposing the "standard Heler" powers but not the "standard Orlanth" powers (i don't know I suppose, after all Heller is not Orlanth)
  • the Odayla, orlanth friend aspect, proposing the "standard Odayla" powers but not the "standard Orlanth" powers (If I understood well, after all Odayla is not Orlanth)
  • etc

There are then two differences between being initiate of the cult of Odayla and being initiate of Orlanth, subcult Odayla :

1) the leader of the cult... As a subcult of  Orlanth, the big boss is an Orlanth priest probably not from the Odayla subcult

2) the resources... You are Orlanthi before everything, you are part of the full community of Orlanth, by right. Now maybe the Odayla cult (without Orlanth) knows some secrets, even some powers...

 

Not sure my answer is less complex than others, haha

 

* in the core rules book Odayla is not a part of the Orlanth cult but is worshipped by "his own" cult for example

Edited by French Desperate WindChild
typo
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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

but you still get all their spells

By my understanding, you don't get all their spells, you only get the one spell they teach; same as associated cults.

This is because a temple can only contain a shrine, and a shrine can only teach one spell. If you want to learn more, you have to go find a full temple to that deity, and initiate there in order to learn it. Prior membership of a subcult to the same deity may, or may not, get you an 'in' with that other temple. if so, that means you are accepted as a candidate for initiation; you still have to actually initiate. Which means using the rules for either being initiated into multiple cults, or leaving your old one.

Not that if no such temple exists, then you could perhaps try founding one...

 

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41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

By my understanding, you don't get all their spells, you only get the one spell they teach; same as associated cults.

This isn't true - when you join a subcult, you get access to all the subcult's Rune spells. As seen with OA and OT, this can be quite a bit.

Although potentially, a subcult might not have access to all the Rune spells the full cult does - but I'm not sure if I have ever actually seen this? How does this work for full Barntar vs. subcult Barntar in the Cults book, for instance?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This isn't true - when you join a subcult, you get access to all the subcult's Rune spells. As seen with OA and OT, this can be quite a bit.

I don't think Orlanth Adventerous and Orlanth Thunderous are subcults in that sense; which would be a subcult of which?

Instead, they are more like a set of associated cults that happen to worship the same deity, and so allow cross-initiation. Orlanth has so many spells not every minor temple teaches them all, so you may have to travel around. But when you show up at the door of a foreign Orlanth temple, your prior initiation will be accepted.

The same applies to Lhankhor Mhy and Buserian, because apparently it is mythically provable they are the same deity, simply worshipped under different names. To initiate in one cult is to be initiated into the other. it also applies to numerous other pairs of cults that hate each other, or are completely unaware of each others existence.

But it doesn't apply to every pair of cults, even ones that politically get on.  For example, Orlanth is not Ernalda.

Barntar is especially complicated, because they are sometimes worshipped as a subcult, and sometimes as a full deity associated with Orlanth. Except that deity is, or could be, mythically identified to actually be Orlanth (Orlanth Barntamer?)

Hopefully the cult books clear this up somewhat.

 

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3 hours ago, radmonger said:

By my understanding, you don't get all their spells, you only get the one spell they teach; same as associated cults.

This is because a temple can only contain a shrine, and a shrine can only teach one spell. If you want to learn more, you have to go find a full temple to that deity, and initiate there in order to learn it. Prior membership of a subcult to the same deity may, or may not, get you an 'in' with that other temple. if so, that means you are accepted as a candidate for initiation; you still have to actually initiate. Which means using the rules for either being initiated into multiple cults, or leaving your old one.

Not that if no such temple exists, then you could perhaps try founding one...

 

Look at Orlanth Adventuous and Thunderod in RQG: They each provide several rune sells and the two sub cults' lists are not the same.  Are you saying that any Orlsnth temple will only have a shrine by which to approach each of those two aspects of Orlanth, and if you want to learn a second spell from that liat, you have to go to a different temple with a different subcult shrine?

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
Clarifying
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An Orlanth temple can provide a full range of Orlanth Thunderous and/or Adventerous spells not because they are subcults, but because both are Orlanth.

The same would apply to a Buserian initiate visiting a Lhankhor Mhy temple in Sartar; they could learn any spell the temple has access to. Their initiation would be accepted, and magically detected as, a valid initiation into the deity the temple worships.

Note that this is not true for an Irripi Ontor initiate. That is a similar cult, filling a similar social role, but does not worship the same entity.

 

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Just now, radmonger said:

 

Note that this is not true for an Irripi Ontor initiate. That is a similar cult, filling a similar social role, but does not worship the same entity.

 

They also shared the same temple in New Pavis.  IMO Irrippi and Buserian Sages can worship at the Lhankor Mhy Temples and get rune points replenished.  They just can't sacrifice for rune magics that are alien to Lhankor Mhy (such as IO's Madness) or for rune magic from LM's associated cults.

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24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They also shared the same temple in New Pavis. 

i was going by:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/

which does say;

Quote

The relationship between the Knowledge Temples and Irrippi Ontor is competitive but basically neutral. They are known to share the same temples in an uneasy condominium.

but also;

Quote

If I interpret your last paragraph correctly, Irripi Ontor is a separate god from LM and Buserian? Yes. Irrippi Ontor was a mortal born in Time. I know people who met him. He obviously is NOT Lhankor Mhy, but he did belong to his cult.

Sharing the same temples, but not sharing the same services seems like too fun an option to pass up, Do the two sets of apprentices get into fights as to who gets to make a ritual procession down the shared main hall?  What do you do when you have been on the waiting list for a year to study a rare scroll, and the governor's favorite clerk just borrows it for the next 6 months?

 

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And to muddy waters a bit more, but in a slightly different direction...

When do the differences between Veneration and Worship come into play in these situations? Could it be that DDB, while worshipped in the Holy Land simply be venerated in DP (known but well outside their area of worship)?

Are Hero's worshipped, or merely venerated?

Are Ancestors venerated, but once they convince a shaman to gather a following and hold worship services, they become greater spirits/gods and thus it becomes a spirit cult?

SDLeary

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3 hours ago, radmonger said:

I don't think Orlanth Adventerous and Orlanth Thunderous are subcults in that sense; which would be a subcult of which?

Both are subcults of Orlanth.

I mean, they're explictly listed as such subcults, along with Vinga and Rex, and we'll get at least Barntar as well. 

Edited by Akhôrahil
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3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Look at Orlanth Adventuous and Thunderod in RQG: They each provide several rune sells and the two sub cults' lists are not the same.  Are you saying that any Orlsnth temple will only have a shrine by which to approach each of those two aspects of Orlanth, and if you want to learn a second spell from that liat, you have to go to a different temple with a different subcult shrine?

I think this is true in some minor temples, yes. In any larger temples, we're very likely to see both. If your temple has only one, you need to both visit the other and join the subcult to pick up the spells, yes. But since you only have "Orlanth" rune points, regain will work cross-subcult.

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On 1/30/2023 at 8:48 AM, David Scott said:

It's entirely dependent on the local/regional factors

Note that subservient cults are part of the main cult, so no need to join. Subcults and hero cults are separate and cost a point of POW to join.

eg:

  • In the Lunar provinces where Orlanth is suppressed, Bartar is an autonomous cult with temples in Ernalda temples. 
  • In Orlanthi lands, Bartar is a subservient cult or subcult of Orlanth Thunderous, or subcult of Orlanth
  • In Esrolia, Barntar is a subcult of Orlanth and Ernalda
  • Barntar is only an associate of Orlanth & Ernalda where not obvious above (and no others)

 

  • Heler is normally a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous (shrines in Great and many major temples)
  • or where Orlanth is less important, a subservient cult of the river god
  • Heler is an independent cult usually only at headwaters
  • Heler is only an associate of Orlanth and River gods where not obvious above. But is an associate of Triolina (lover/brother).

 

So, for clarity, in the case of a given Sartarite follower of Barntar or Heler, would the follower of the subservient cult be classified as an initiate of Barntar/Heler who worships as a part of the Orlanth Thunderous cult (as there is no independent cult), or are they instead an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous in a subordinate aspect like Orlanth Adventurous’s Four Magic Weapons?

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53 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Both are subcults of Orlanth.

Yes; my point is the fact that they both worship same deity that is significant here, not their status as subcults in the sense of .p282 of RQ:G.

If you ask 'how do subcults work', you get my answer above about Ditch Digging Boy. If you ask 'how do different cults to the same deity work' , you get my answer above about Orlanth Thunderous. Neither actually break the subcult rules, but both are different from each other.

The core rules don't have anything about unrelated cults to the same diety (e.g. Yelm and Yu Kargzant). My guess is the same as related ones, but with an adventure seed where you have to prove your status.

They also don't have any examples of what a cult with multiple subcults to different dieties would be like. Likely Caladra and Aurelion would qualify?

 

 

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