Second Sight Question Regarding "Living Being" (RQiG)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

The RQiG Second Sight description (page 264)  (emphasis mine)

"This spell allows a person to view the POW aura of a living being and to gauge its relative strength. This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World."

Note that the Shaman section (p 358) talks about a living entity.  And their fetch lets them see the spirit world.

What's a living being?

For example, our Shaman has

1. spirits bound into inanimate objects
2. spirits bound by his fetch
3. his fetch
4. he was overcome by a disease spirit
5. he was covertly processed by an insane spirit from a Thanatar head.

If you forced me to rule this moment, I believe that 2 & 3 are probably "living beings".  Not sure about 4.  And the others aren't.

Thoughts?

Edited February 10, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What's a living being?

You, me, trees, the shadowcat lurking amdist the trees, the group of elves sitting in the trees, the naiad in the river (when embodied only - if not embodied, they are in the Spirit World), the fish in the river, the birds flying in the air.

The zombie shambling along the road, is not, and shows no POW aura (therefore you can reasonably assume it is undead!)

As the spell notes: "The POW auras of enchanted items are also visible to users of this spell".  If you've bound a spirit into an object, it's embodied and in this world, not the Spirit World. 

What you cannot see is anything in the Spirit World which in your list includes: 2, 3.

So in your list, you can see: 1 (the spirit exists in the object and makes it "living" even if inanimate); 4 & 5 assuming they are possessing your body.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@jajagappa  I love that we came to exactly opposite conclusions.  🙂

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

What you cannot see is anything in the Spirit World which in your list includes: 2, 3.

Just to complicate things, I presume you only mean 3 when it's not guarding the body of the shaman as they discorporate.... 😁

[French Desperate WindChild]

In my opinion living means what can die so from my understanding of the rules :

1) an object cannot die so no

2) spirit bound by the fetch is in the spirit world so no

3) fetch is part of the living shaman so yes (remember that for a lot of things POW is added so that would confirm imo)

4) the shaman is living so yes

5) the shaman is living so yes

 

that is what I conclude from  the rules

however I do it differently 

house rules : what is in the mundane world is seen, then :

1) yes

2) no

3) yes

4) yes (you see both shaman and disease )

5) yes

the only no is when the spirit is in the spirit world with no manifestation in the mundane world 

so like jaja a nymph spirit is not seen if she is not physically present with her beautiful body 

in the same way a spirit, an elemental or what ever manifesting its presence in the world (spirit fight for example ) can be targeted

 

and if you are shaman then there is no no at all

[Scotty]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The RQiG Second Sight description (page 264)  (emphasis mine)

"This spell allows a person to view the POW aura of a living being and to gauge its relative strength. This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World."

Note that the Shaman section (p 358) talks about a living entity.  And their fetch lets them see the spirit world.

What's a living being?

• Those that have POW and a physical form are living beings
• Those without POW that have a physical form are undead
• Those without physical form that have POW are spirits

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For example, our Shaman has

1. spirits bound into inanimate objects

No.

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. spirits bound by his fetch

No.

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. his fetch

No

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. he was overcome by a disease spirit

He is a living being possessed by a spirit

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. he was covertly processed by an insane spirit from a Thanatar head.

He is a living being possessed by a spirit

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I presume you only mean 3 when it's not guarding the body of the shaman as they discorporate....

Yes, when the shaman is discorporate (and no longer appearing alive), the fetch is visibly manifest in the mortal world at that point. Interestingly, if I recall correctly, the fetch doesn't occupy the shaman's body but hovers over and guards it.  Might be a border case as to whether Second Sight reveals it, but I'd probably go with a Yes.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

That’s something I don’t understand about fetch then..

in my understanding :

the fetch is part of the shaman soul

the shaman is both in the mundane world (as a living being) and the spirit world (thanks to the fetch)

 

so what do you see with the spell ?

only the pow of the shaman without fetch ?  I believed the fetch is always with the shaman just in the spirit world but « near » the mundane world

Why not the full pow of the shaman (fetch included)

of course if the shaman is running deep in the spirit world I would think that the spell shows only the fetch pow as the shaman is far from the mundane place

 

 where am I wrong in my logic ?

 

 

 

[Joerg]

The Shaman doesn't usually have to use the spell, as Second Sight is a form of perception gained by acquiring a fetch AFAIK. The effects still apply.

In the mundane world, the person with Second Sight (spell or ability) will see the aura (POW emanations) of everything with POW. This includes disembodied spirits with a presence in the physical plane, whether by use of Visibility or possession or being summoned/released from a matrix or crystal. An occupied matrix or crystal ought to leak aura, too.

A visible disembodied spirit can seep into solid matter, which may make perception of the aura difficult or impossible.

Beyond the veil, right on the border there will be echoes or shadows of the spirits of objects on the mundane plane. I don't think that Soul Sight makes any difference to observers on the spirit plane, unless it is possible to cross over with nothing but a sense of "spirit touch" (which would be quite a nightmare).

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Shaman doesn't usually have to use the spell, as Second Sight is a form of perception gained by acquiring a fetch AFAIK. The effects still apply.

In the mundane world, the person with Second Sight (spell or ability) will see the aura (POW emanations) of everything with POW. This includes disembodied spirits with a presence in the physical plane, whether by use of Visibility or possession or being summoned/released from a matrix or crystal. An occupied matrix or crystal ought to leak aura, too.

no that is not the "canon" (aka Scotty's answer) However  that is my houserule too 😛

the point for the spell (I don't speak about the shaman's ability) is "living" not "with pow"

[PhilHibbs]

Whether or not it is correct by the book, I run it as "POW in the middle world". So if a spirit has Visibility active, it can be seen with Second Sight. Also a fetch guarding the shaman whilst discorporate.

So it doesn't let you see anything that you couldn't already see, but it does reveal the POW that resides in it. It would reveal a manifest spirit that is hiding, in darkness, or has a stealth ability. I imagine that, like germs, disease spirits are not normally visible.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

So it doesn't let you see anything that you couldn't already see, but it does reveal the POW that resides in it. It would reveal a manifest spirit that is hiding, in darkness, or has a stealth ability. I imagine that, like germs, disease spirits are not normally visible.

I would play it that Second Sight gives you the senses to perceive covert possession, but that the ability to recognize it may require training, or Insight (human), etc.

[PhilHibbs]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would play it that Second Sight gives you the senses to perceive covert possession, but that the ability to recognize it may require training, or Insight (human), etc.

Yes, covert possession would come under "a manifest spirit that is hiding" in my books.