Alternative uses for Augmentations

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

It seems to me that RQG’s augmentation rules could open up new possibilities in gameplay that may have been covered in previous editions by spot rules or simple penalties to the attack roll.

I was thinking initially about a way to augment an attack to gain an SR advantage - by attacking with Passion or Rune augmentation, and using the success level (critical, special, standard, failure, fumble) to assign an SR advantage or disadvantage.

I came up with this, and as per a suggestion in another post

it should only apply to the first attack of an augmented attack, not the entire combat - but open to suggestions! 

Critical - Attack first on SR1

Special - Minus 5 SR

Standard - Minus 3 SR

failure - unchanged 

fumble - Attack last on SR12

 

Moving on to other augments it got me thinking (yes I like RQ combat), that a skill augment to an attack role could be used similarly to improvise a Feint action. 
 

For example the Dance skill could be used as an augment to effect a deliberate feint. With a level of success giving a surprise SR penalty to the attack.

Thoughts?  Good improvisational tool, or better to leave augments RAW as the simple modifier to existing skills? 

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Maybe this kind of improvisation is better served by a straight forward skill roll, keep augmentations as they are in RQG? The idea of using an augmentation was to combine it with an attack action. But I guess you can just combine skills in RQG. 
 

I guess the issue with this sort of special move is that players will spam it and use it again and again.  Perhaps in improvising these kind of an actions failure needs a significant consequence to avoid spamming? 
 

Edit: I should rename this thread to Improvising new actions in RQG 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Ludo Bagman]

Another option would be to keep augmenting etc. as is in the rules but give bonuses for skills at certain thresholds, for example at 100%, 150%, 200%, and so on, or just at 100%. This could be -1 weapon strike rank, or +1 hit point for a parrying weapon, etc.

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Maybe this kind of improvisation is better served by a straight forward skill roll, keep augmentations as they are in RQG?

For combat between groups of combatants I would use a Battle roll of the leaders to decide who has an advantage in the initial phase of combat.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Critical - Attack first on SR1

Special - Minus 5 SR

Standard - Minus 3 SR

failure - unchanged 

fumble - Attack last on SR12

My take would be:

Critical: Attack on SR1 (but not first, because you can have 2 critical augment by 2 different characters, potentially in opposed parties). In decreasing DEX or increasing normal SR if several characters are acting in SR1.

Special: Minus 5SR

Standard success: Unchanged

Failure +3SR

Fumble: Attack on SR12 after all normal SR12 actions. If 2 or more different characters are in this category, decreasing DEX or increasing normal SR between them.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

For example the Dance skill could be used as an augment to effect a deliberate feint.

Yes, of course.

7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

With a level of success giving a surprise SR penalty to the attack.

Why not. It can be a SR bonus, but as a feint, I would give a malus to the parry (or dodge).

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Ludo Bagman said:

For combat between groups of combatants I would use a Battle roll of the leaders to decide who has an advantage in the initial phase of combat.

I think this is another good use for Battle skill.

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I guess the issue with this sort of special move is that players will spam it and use it again and again.

in my opinion the issue is if the gm does not play their npc like the players play their chartacters 🙂

 

From my perspective I would play differently -just example, i don't play it  -  :

a) there would be good to have more special actions (for combat, as you said, feint, bonus hit point etc...). Character may know some of them or not. Some may be secret of cult / society, some not. All would be teached by weapon masters(90+), maybe some "easy" technics would be teached by good teacher (75 + ?).

b) These special actions would "cost" some % in the attack roll (for example -20% = +1 Hit point)

c) passions and skills may provide different things :

- as raw, the skill bonus; so same result than your proposal : you = passion gives +x hit point, me passion bonus + technic malus = 0% gives +x hit point)

- the temporal access to a special action the character doesn't know (a true inspiration ^^) Maybe a critical would provide the same action, but now the character knows the technic for ever

 

etc..

 

why this difference with you : a master should know a technic without any passion and be able to apply it. Of course if a master is able to do that without passion, that means the access of the technic is not based on passion. But passion may inspire too, so two ways for the technic, one by study, for ever, one by passion for this specific passionate fight

[Rodney Dangerduck]

14 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

For example the Dance skill could be used as an augment to effect a deliberate feint.

One of our PCs constantly asks to use Dance to augment his Dodge.  Reasonable.  Yet I, the current GM, say no.  My two cents:

As described in RAW, Dance is not an Agility based skill.  It is "Communications"; there is nothing particularly physical about it.  For the record, I think that maybe Dance should be an Agility based skill, but the authors decided otherwise.

Nor is Dance a deceitful skill for feints. Maybe use Fasttalk?

Dance already applies as an augment to Magical skills.  Making it useful in physical combat is perhaps overpowered.

[hipsterinspace]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One of our PCs constantly asks to use Dance to augment his Dodge.  Reasonable.  Yet I, the current GM, say no.  My two cents:

As described in RAW, Dance is not an Agility based skill.  It is "Communications"; there is nothing particularly physical about it.  For the record, I think that maybe Dance should be an Agility based skill, but the authors decided otherwise.

Nor is Dance a deceitful skill for feints. Maybe use Fasttalk?

Dance already applies as an augment to Magical skills.  Making it useful in physical combat is perhaps overpowered.

Maybe I’m more lenient, but as a GM I tend to allow it, especially if a player can justify it. If this character is an Orlanthi, the Sword Dance is one of the ceremonial touchstones of their cult and society. Granted, Ernalda’s Flax Dance or Goose Dance might not be helpful in dodging blows, but sword dancing teaches some of the fundamentals of combat in a highly ritualized context and requires incredible athleticism, there are plenty of examples of it in our own world.

Edited February 19, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[soltakss]

14 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Maybe I’m more lenient, but as a GM I tend to allow it, especially if a player can justify it.

That is exactly my attitude. If a Player can justify it then why not?

14 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

If this character is an Orlanthi, the Sword Dance is one of the ceremonial touchstones of their cult and society. Granted, Ernalda’s Flax Dance or Goose Dance might not be helpful in dodging blows, but sword dancing teaches some of the fundamentals of combat in a highly ritualized context and requires incredible athleticism, there are plenty of examples of it in our own world.

Exactly.

In my Glorantha, the Oasis Folk have martial art traditions hidden in dances, with the same rationale.

[hipsterinspace]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, the Oasis Folk have martial art traditions hidden in dances, with the same rationale.

Oasis Folk capoeira is a great idea.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

Maybe I’m more lenient, but as a GM I tend to allow it, especially if a player can justify it. If this character is an Orlanthi, the Sword Dance is one of the ceremonial touchstones of their cult and society. Granted, Ernalda’s Flax Dance or Goose Dance might not be helpful in dodging blows, but sword dancing teaches some of the fundamentals of combat in a highly ritualized context and requires incredible athleticism, there are plenty of examples of it in our own world.

That was certainly the direction my thinking was going. One of those cases where you could argue for sub skills within the Dance skill to describe different forms. 
 

Dance is clearly Agility as well as Communication but I guess the designers had to prioritise its artful aspect. As a Gm I’d allow the use of Dance as an agility skill or Dodge to try a purposeful deceptive feint.
 

For me using the Communication skill (raw)  of Dance to manipulate body language to deceive , is a good use of the skill and justifiable in game . 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

And of course there may be an element of opposed skills to try and see through the deception…hmm

[whitelaughter]

I'm curious about the use of Augments on Augments: thus if my family wants me to be loyal to my clan, and the clan wants me to kill some broos, can I use Love(family) to Augment Loyalty(Clan), with Loyalty(Clan) Augmenting an attack?

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

I'm curious about the use of Augments on Augments: thus if my family wants me to be loyal to my clan, and the clan wants me to kill some broos, can I use Love(family) to Augment Loyalty(Clan), with Loyalty(Clan) Augmenting an attack?

That gets into "chaining" augments, which goes against the basic augment rule on p.144: "Only one augment may be attempted per ability"

I always require the PC's to choose which Passion or Rune is driving their action. Is it their Love (family) or their Loyalty (clan)? 

[radmonger]

i don't think it makes sense to chain augments in that way. Not least because some player will end up arguing for an infinite loop of augments:-)

 

 

[hipsterinspace]

I follow rules as written and don't allow chaining. In circumstances where a player is directly calling upon a passion I will allow them to augment with a skill, for example augmenting a roll of your loyalty to your tribe with orate to secure the support of your tribal ruler in an expedition.