Can Spirit Cults be contacted in more than one location ?

[Agentorange]

I've always tended to think of spirit cults as being very localised affairs only contactable in in 1 single location. But does this have to be the case ? obviously if their worship is too widespread they start to drift across the line into minor deity status ( lets face it, it's all a bit blurred down at the small end of things ) But in a couple of locations maybe ?

I could see that being possible.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Agentorange

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I've always tended to think of spirit cults as being very localised affairs only contactable in in 1 single location. But does this have to be the case ?

No.

In my work I've divided spirits upon into a few types including spatial, temporal, and other that interact with the magical ecology.

The spatial spirits can be very localized (the spirit of a specific tree or grove) or fairly broad (a river spirit for instance exists throughout the course of the river).

Temporal spirits are seasonally based and are not explicitly tied to a given location. The burning shadow spirits for instance are Fireseason spirits and might appear wherever sunlight can readily reach the ground and burn away shadows (open plains are preferred).

Other spirits might include Trickster spirits like Raven and Fox. They can appear in any number of locations and at any time. 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I've always tended to think of spirit cults as being very localised affairs only contactable in in 1 single location. But does this have to be the case ?

To repeat, no.

It really depends on the spirit cult being contacted. Obviously the Chalk Man is a giant chalk hill figure, but there could be others. River horse can be be contacted at the headwaters of any river. Evening/Morning Star, anywhere they can be seen, Lightning Boy, any Orlanth shrine, or Hosar Mountain in Prax. Kolat, on any hilltop, especially if an orlanth temple...

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I've … tended to think of spirit cults as … only contactable in [a] single location.

Do you mean the spirit which is the object of the spirit cult or the religious group which is devoted to the spirit?

3 hours ago, Agentorange said:

if their worship is too widespread they start to drift across the line into minor deity status

If the worry is the power level of an entity worshipped in many places, I wouldn’t let my Glorantha be a slave to the fantasy cliché that deities are worship-powered (god/desses fading from lack of worship even makes it into the Tough Guide to Fantasyland) — after all, the greatest of the great gods, Arachne Solara, is ostensibly little worshipped and who wants a theory as to why she is nonetheless immensely powerful, or a book-keeping phase in which deities’ powers are calculated based on last season’s worship? There is a POW economy, doubtless, but possibly best to handwave the divine end of it — the gods’ main earnings and outgoings are beyond our ken and nothing to do with cult.

Your Glorantha may productively vary from my idiot ramblings — do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

[Agentorange]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No.

In my work I've divided spirits upon into a few types including spatial, temporal, and other that interact with the magical ecology.

The spatial spirits can be very localized (the spirit of a specific tree or grove) or fairly broad (a river spirit for instance exists throughout the course of the river).

Temporal spirits are seasonally based and are not explicitly tied to a given location. The burning shadow spirits for instance are Fireseason spirits and might appear wherever sunlight can readily reach the ground and burn away shadows (open plains are preferred).

Other spirits might include Trickster spirits like Raven and Fox. They can appear in any number of locations and at any time. 

Are the Burning shadow spirits in Edge of Empire ?

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

Are the Burning shadow spirits in Edge of Empire ?

To date they only appear in my Heortland material (in Chaosium' queue). I'd expect them in parts of DH as well.

However, I do discuss the topic of spatial and temporal spirits in Edge of Empire. The Black Fly Mother and the Leaping Rat are examples of spirits that can appear in any number of locations.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by jajagappa

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I've always tended to think of spirit cults as being very localised affairs only contactable in in 1 single location. But does this have to be the case ? obviously if their worship is too widespread they start to drift across the line into minor deity status ( lets face it, it's all a bit blurred down at the small end of things ) But in a couple of locations maybe ?

Not really.

They can be contacted in special places, or places important to them. So, the spirit of a stream can be contacted anywhere along that stream, although that could be classed as one place. Some spirits only have one sacred spot, other have many, so it depends on the spirit involved.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Also it might be difficult to tell whether you are actually talking to "the same" cult spirit, or one of a closely related class of spirits that can all be worshipped as one spirit cult.

[mfbrandi]

26 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

it might be difficult to tell whether you are … talking to "the same" cult spirit, or one of a closely related class … that can all be worshipped as one spirit cult.

We all know of the chess-playing “automaton”, the Turk. According to Adam Gopnik on the radio this morning, the showman didn’t tour with a chess player but picked up a different one in each town — at the local chess café. Sitting crouched in the box, the chess player would beat stronger opponents than sat across from them in the normal way. I immediately thought of this thread.

[Qizilbashwoman]

28 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

We all know of the chess-playing “automaton”, the Turk.

Side note: we all know about the Mechanical Turk, but did you know Buddhist stories from its earliest era discuss automata/robots multiple times? The Buddha's tomb was protected by an army of grieving robots according to the earliest Buddhist narratives, and at Harvard, I read a Tocharian translation of an equally ancient story of a court automaton that was so lifelike that a courtier fell in love with it.

This is what we call the "Tiffany problem": there should be robots in Glorantha, because Bronze Age stories already knew about robots and told many stories about them, but like the name "Tiffany", if you add them, people think it's a weirdly out-of-place decision. (Tiffany is a perfectly cromulent medieval name but it "sounds"like it was invented in 1980!)

Edited April 3, 2023 by Qizilbashwoman

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

... (Tiffany is a perfectly cromulent medieval name but it "sounds"like it was invented in 1980!)

Tell that to Holly Golightly (or just go shopping for jewelry in Manhattan)!

The 1980's have much to answer for... abusing certain names is but one of the crimes.


(for those who don't already know, "The Tiffany Problem" was coined by Jo Walton to describe how well-researched historical fiction sometimes needs to pull back from the accuracy, to fit the preconceptions of a less-informed audience! )

Edited April 3, 2023 by g33k

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also it might be difficult to tell whether you are actually talking to "the same" cult spirit, or one of a closely related class of spirits that can all be worshipped as one spirit cult.

That's why the shaman needs to develop their Spirit Lore!  Some of these "similar" spirits are ancient rivals and conflating the two is likely to get you in trouble with one or the other. 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

if you add them, people think it's a weirdly out-of-place decision

Because they never read the Argonautika?

Edited April 3, 2023 by mfbrandi
trimmed because off-topic

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

We all know of the chess-playing “automaton”, the Turk. According to Adam Gopnik on the radio this morning, the showman didn’t tour with a chess player but picked up a different one in each town — at the local chess café. Sitting crouched in the box, the chess player would beat stronger opponents than sat across from them in the normal way. I immediately thought of this thread.

I know it led to drift (sorry), but I would protest that this itself is not off topic — it is not about automata. The point was: different spirit, same spirit cult wrapper, and that that might empower the spirits as well as serving the cultists. I thought it obvious enough that it didn’t need unpacking.

[g33k]

If it's a small localized spirit, then it likely only has a small localized spirit-cult.

Oakfed notsomuch small...

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

  

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Because they never read the Argonautika?

nobody reads the argonautika. barely anyone knows the Classics, at least in North America.

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I know it led to drift (sorry), but I would protest that this itself is not off topic — it is not about automata. The point was: different spirit, same spirit cult wrapper, and that that might empower the spirits as well as serving the cultists. I thought it obvious enough that it didn’t need unpacking.

This is essential to the animistic relation. Bodies in themselves are mechanical shells, an ornate but empty vehicle. We are fortunate enough to be spirits with access to a body, like conventional chess players. The spirits most eager for contact tend not to be embodied. They're great at chess or whatever magic they do, but without a body of some sort it's hard for most of them to manipulate the board. On the other hand, no physical extension (no SIZ) means all space is one to them.

Of course many have preferences, allegiances and allergies in terms of locale, climate, "set and setting." They manifest independently in certain places and not others. Some find certain environments too antagonistic to endure . . . contact efforts will be seriously resisted because they simply won't fit easily into the vehicle you have available. You can't summon fire elementals at the bottom of the ocean, for example. The chess player won't squeeze into what's available. But subject to these parameters, if they give you their name, you can travel and still call them. 

And of course what's interesting is the stereotyped or "rote" behaviors that many spirits will exhibit, like rude programming. At least until you really get to know one as an individual and interact with it across a wider range of settings. 

[ὁ δὲ Θαμοῦς Αἰγύπτιος ἦν κυβερνήτης οὐδὲ τῶν ἐμπλεόντων γνώριμος πολλοῖς; ἀπ᾽ ὀνόματος]

Now extend the "body" of possession to the framework of consciousness required to work with a given entity. Call it the "spell." The boundaries of that spell define a class of spirit: you can call "lemures" or "gnomes" or whatever, players at a certain game that can fit into a particular classificatory box of the mind. Some spells contact a particular spirit on behalf of a personal relationship. In this case, you are at least on the brink of having a cult around that spirit. Give it a point of whatever it likes and seal the deal. You've got a personal gnome, a player at the game of earth who travels with you and fits into the doll you've made.

Edited April 3, 2023 by scott-martin
cults as bodies, the great god pan

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

nobody reads the argonautika. barely anyone knows the Classics, at least in North America.

The Graves version in particular is Pure Gloranthan Gold complete with "California stoner surrealism" or whatever they're calling it these days. See how Graves frames cult entities like nymphs and centaurs that other games struggle to cram into a monster manual. Do it like that.

[Qizilbashwoman]

21 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Graves version in particular is Pure Gloranthan Gold complete with "California stoner surrealism" or whatever they're calling it these days. See how Graves frames cult entities like nymphs and centaurs that other games struggle to cram into a monster manual. Do it like that.

have you read WRATH GODDESS SING

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

have you read WRATH GODDESS SING

Not yet but I am always hunting something new and fresh, like some kind of ageless + eternal spirit (or story) constantly circulating from skin to skin. On the other hand, there is always the risk I'll just crap out and watch Alexander Senki again.

Can spirit cults be contacted in more than one location? The mechanical turk (like one of Aristotle's hunter-killer mecha or the weird mutant forms of the pythagorean cult) travels from place to place but myths spread virally and so the rites propagate across the world. If enough of us work the rite simultaneously and the spirit appears to all of us, clearly the spirit is now something more like a god. The only way to (WOAH, sorry, big peregrine just sailed close to the window) know is to get some friends together, try it and compare notes. Otherwise, a traveling shaman can map the world in terms of how far each known entity can stretch, paint the lozenge in ocher colors like spiritual countries, find the boundaries.

Make the countries "holy."

[mfbrandi]

59 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

something more like a god … WOAH, sorry, big peregrine just sailed close to the window

You summoned one of Horus’s undocumented sisters.

[scott-martin]

9 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

You summoned one of Horus’s undocumented sisters.

Heh. The great Peregrin Dirim, speaking of that time Achilles was a girl. So far this season has been all about the fledgling so momma has mostly kept to the north and left these easier meadows to the little one. We hadn't seen her since last summer. But I think the question of the avenging sister is similar to whether spirit cults are bounded by locality. Some spirits enjoy one "gender" performance or another, just as they have favorite colors or foods or styles of music. For others it's just an accident that doesn't concern them, something for bodies. Space is like that. Death is like that . . . the masculine portion of time, whatever that might signal. Sometimes it matters that Yelorna isn't Yelmalio and sometimes it makes no important difference between Vinga and Orlanth.

We're lucky in that all of these questions about spirits have easy answers. We can poll them and look for patterns. This is part of the story of spirit cults, how they concentrate and spread. Sometimes there's no need for an oasis spirit to travel. They don't socialize. Sometimes what they really wanted was for someone to carry them out of the desert to a place where they can stretch out a little. It gets cramped in the turk. You need a certain kind of chess contortionist to really pull off the trick.

 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The point was: different spirit, same spirit cult wrapper, and that that might empower the spirits as well as serving the cultists.

With spirits and spirit cults I favor differentiation - it's one of the reasons that most spirit cults remain minor.  The spirits tend to be individual and picky about what they like and want IMO. Now, you could say that the Dagger Wind spirit of Imther and the Northern Fanged Wind of Vanch are close enough that a shaman could structure a spirit cult to encompass both. But... shamans are being constantly pestered and bothered by not only the spirits they've bound and those they've allied, but also the relevant foes of those spirits (and their own personal foes). There's no convenient deity there to keep these spirits in line and as a consequence the shamans have to add that to their tasks. And creating a standardized cult seems to rate low on their list of things to do.

[mfbrandi]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

With spirits and spirit cults I favor differentiation - it's one of the reasons that most spirit cults remain minor.

I think I am being misunderstood, but I think what I have in mind wouldn’t suit you, anyway, so it likely doesn’t matter. FWIW, here’s what I had in mind, stolen from Gopnik:

• The showman is the shaman, travelling from town to town.
• The Mechanical Turk is the ‘cultic framework’ — the mask (with name) that any anonymous local chess player/minor ‘nameless’ local spirit can put on.
• When they are being the Turk, the chess player beats stronger players than they normally would/the minor spirit can do Turkish things they otherwise couldn’t — they are by no means grand masters, but their effective performance is upped.
• The shaman or spirit cult gets portability without needing a mobile or omnipresent spirit — just hire the local talent and lend them a costume.

The idea is not to make all spirit cults the same or to fit known named spirits into a Procrustean bed of monocult, but to have a shaman who is a touring Colonel Tom with no Elvis, just a spangly jumpsuit to lend to the local no-hoper. Equally, it could be done with franchises and no touring at all. The Gopnik thing just struck me as one way to have seemingly the same low-powered entity popping up everywhere: “If this thing is everywhere, why isn’t it of minor deity power?” “Because it is an illusion: it is a Mechanical Turk.”

It is just how it struck me. Not for every spirit cult, and probably for most people, not for any. Beats chickens dancing on a hotplate, though.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I think I am being misunderstood, but I think what I have in mind wouldn’t suit you, anyway, so it likely doesn’t matter. FWIW, here’s what I had in mind, stolen from Gopnik:

• The showman is the shaman, travelling from town to town.
• The Mechanical Turk is the ‘cultic framework’ — the mask (with name) that any anonymous local chess player/minor ‘nameless’ local spirit can put on.
• When they are being the Turk, the chess player beats stronger players than they normally would/the minor spirit can do Turkish things they otherwise couldn’t — they are by no means grand masters, but their effective performance is upped.
• The shaman or spirit cult gets portability without needing a mobile or omnipresent spirit — just hire the local talent and lend them a costume.

The idea is not to make all spirit cults the same or to fit known named spirits into a Procrustean bed of monocult, but to have a shaman who is a touring Colonel Tom with no Elvis, just a spangly jumpsuit to lend to the local no-hoper. Equally, it could be done with franchises and no touring at all. The Gopnik thing just struck me as one way to have seemingly the same low-powered entity popping up everywhere: “If this thing is everywhere, why isn’t it of minor deity power?” “Because it is an illusion: it is a Mechanical Turk.”

It is just how it struck me. Not for every spirit cult, and probably for most people, not for any. Beats chickens dancing on a hotplate, though.

This shaman strikes me as being very Eurmali, tbh...