Starter Set non-human pregens

[g33k]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:25 AM, g33k said:

And -- it being 6 months further on, and noting Chaosium's self-declared "production&layout logjam" of the Cults books having been broken -- I reiterate my last post in thread, summarized as:


PING   @Jason D -- any ETA or further word?

<Le sigh>

+7 more months.
+1 ping, @Jason D ...

Is there anything resembling an ETA for us in the fandom?
"Layout has been the bottleneck" for well over a year now.
 

Edited July 30 by g33k

[Jason Farrell]

26 minutes ago, g33k said:

<Le sigh>

+7 more months.
+1 ping, @Jason D ...

Is there anything resembling an ETA for us in the fandom?
"Layout has been the bottleneck" for well over a year now.
 

Chaosium prioritizes their projects and puts them in a queue.  

Despite the fact that those pregens would take, relatively speaking, no time at all to finish, instead of using a day or two to finish them, Chaosium doggedly sticks to where they are in said queue.  So if the queue right now is: Solar, Sartar, Darkness, GM book, Chaos, Pregens (for example), they won't touch those pregens until those five other projects are complete.  Even if Chaos, say, will take 50 days to layout and the pregens will take 1, they'll still do those 50 before that 1. 

I think it's ridiculous, but I think a lot of things they do are ridiculous. 

[g33k]

On 7/30/2024 at 10:12 AM, Jason Farrell said:

Chaosium prioritizes their projects and puts them in a queue.  

Despite the fact that those pregens would take, relatively speaking, no time at all to finish, instead of using a day or two to finish them, Chaosium doggedly sticks to where they are in said queue.  So if the queue right now is: Solar, Sartar, Darkness, GM book, Chaos, Pregens (for example), they won't touch those pregens until those five other projects are complete.  Even if Chaos, say, will take 50 days to layout and the pregens will take 1, they'll still do those 50 before that 1. 

I think it's ridiculous, but I think a lot of things they do are ridiculous. 

To be honest, I think "profit" figures in, too.
Something that will generate cash is more likely to climb the queue; freebies are pretty low-priority.
I cannot say this is wrongthink... they are in business, after all; and it's their business acumen that saved RQ and Chaosium back in 2015-2016...

But my gut says that Chaosium is kinda short of this type of freebie, compared to other product lines (tho my rational brain points out that I haven't really surveyed the market to sanity-check my gut).

Also:  unless they are ready to roll out char-gen rules for all the nonhuman species in this suite, they may be unwilling to release something that will generate lots of questions/discontent...

But really, we're speculating here in a  <nudge,nudge, @Chaosium>  info-void...

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Also:  unless they are ready to roll out char-gen rules for all the nonhuman species in this suite, they may be unwilling to release something that will generate lots of questions/discontent...

Jason has already said that he's not bothered if the pregens don't stick rigidly to published rules, because the published rules basically say "change whatever your group wants to change". My phrasing.

My personal theory is they are waiting on art.

Edited August 1 by PhilHibbs

[g33k]

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Jason has already said that he's not bothered if the pregens don't stick rigidly to published rules, because the published rules basically say "change whatever your group wants to change". My phrasing.

My personal theory is they are waiting on art.

I think they have all the art.
They specifically said waiting on "layout."

But while the pregens might not need to slavishly follow the rules, I'd expect Chaosium might get kinda swamped by inquiries if they published a "playable pre-gen" for a species with literally zero character-creation rules.  "Hey, I  wanna create a PC like that!"

Aldrymi, Mostali, Elurae, Wind-children, Triolini, etc.

[Ian Absentia]

It also requires a significant investment to market and distribute a product.  While many of us might be content if Chaosium just hosted files online with word-of-mouth advertisement and ready download, that's less of a profitable business model and more of a cottage industry -- i.e., the model for the Jonstown Compendium.

Speaking of which, why hasn't anyone jumped the queue and made a similar product for the JC?

!i!

[g33k]

26 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

It also requires a significant investment to market and distribute a product.  While many of us might be content if Chaosium just hosted files online with word-of-mouth advertisement and ready download, that's less of a profitable business model and more of a cottage industry -- i.e., the model for the Jonstown Compendium.

...

They were always going to be a "free download" companion to the Starter Set, though...  not a separate product (separately marketed; nor "distributed" at all); honestly, I might even buy them as a paid supplement, if Chaosium offered them that way (14 playable nonhuman PC's on that lovely "Folio" sheets?  For, I dunno... $9.99?  HELL yeah)... though I'd likely gripe about paying for something they had promised for free.

I expect Chaosium's marketing-dep't already has written a press release announcing these, during one of their slower downtimes, e.g. when a shipping-snafu hit.

 

26 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

...

Speaking of which, why hasn't anyone jumped the queue and made a similar product for the JC?

We know an "Elfpak" is lurking just over the horizon; that one therefore seems unlikely as a JC offering.

But the less-imminent ones?
YES!
Would buy.

"Playble Species of the Month," a "psotm" akin to @Austin's "motm" series?
Mmmmm.
Gimme!

Edited August 1 by g33k

[Jason Farrell]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

To be honest, I think "profit" figures in, too.
Something that will generate cash is more likely to climb the queue; freebies are pretty low-priority.
I cannot say this is wrongthink... they are in business, after all; and it's their business acumen that saved RQ and Chaosium back in 2015-2016...
 

a - they promised them 3 years ago to people who bought the product; they have an obligation not to ignore promises they made
b - those pregens would increase the value of that product, possibly leading to even more sales (or as you might say, profit)

[Jason Farrell]

4 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

It also requires a significant investment to market and distribute a product.  While many of us might be content if Chaosium just hosted files online with word-of-mouth advertisement and ready download, that's less of a profitable business model and more of a cottage industry -- i.e., the model for the Jonstown Compendium.

Speaking of which, why hasn't anyone jumped the queue and made a similar product for the JC?

!i!

Did you bother to read anything at all about what's being talked about here before deciding to lecture us on economic realities?

Edited August 2 by Jason Farrell

[Susimetsa]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

But while the pregens might not need to slavishly follow the rules, I'd expect Chaosium might get kinda swamped by inquiries if they published a "playable pre-gen" for a species with literally zero character-creation rules.  "Hey, I  wanna create a PC like that!"

Indeed. I, for one, am looking forward to not only seeing the pregen on Telmori but also their character creation rules. But will they make a similar "roll your ancestor history" system for all the species or will it be something simpler? 😕

[g33k]

On 8/2/2024 at 1:27 AM, Susimetsa said:

Indeed. I, for one, am looking forward to not only seeing the pregen on Telmori but also their character creation rules. But will they make a similar "roll your ancestor history" system for all the species or will it be something simpler? 😕

Telmori as a species are explicitly human in character creation; as a tribe in Sartar they would explicitly use that homeland (from the core rulebook) for character creation.  I think this can be reasonably be handled via the core rule + Bestiary (which has Cult-of-Telmor rune-spells, and wolf-form stats).

Other non-humans are less clear, and more in need of further rules.

Edited August 4 by g33k

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/2/2024 at 9:27 AM, Susimetsa said:

Indeed. I, for one, am looking forward to not only seeing the pregen on Telmori but also their character creation rules. But will they make a similar "roll your ancestor history" system for all the species or will it be something simpler? 😕

Are we expecting Telmori character creation in anything upcoming?

[g33k]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Are we expecting Telmori character creation in anything upcoming?

I am expecting them in the "Sartar book" ...  Possibly even in the next-up DP book?

[Brian Duguid]

Personally, I doubt we'll see Telmori character generation from Chaosium until the (longer?) Telmor cult write-up appears in the Horned God / Hykim cults book.

But until then, there is of course this:

http://tiny.cc/TCoH

[Alex]

On 7/30/2024 at 6:12 PM, Jason Farrell said:

Despite the fact that those pregens would take, relatively speaking, no time at all to finish, instead of using a day or two to finish them, Chaosium doggedly sticks to where they are in said queue.  So if the queue right now is: Solar, Sartar, Darkness, GM book, Chaos, Pregens (for example), they won't touch those pregens until those five other projects are complete.  Even if Chaos, say, will take 50 days to layout and the pregens will take 1, they'll still do those 50 before that 1. 

"We're not the Orderium, after all!"  Though this might be case of a literal order, chaotic in origin or otherwise!

I think it makes a degree of sense to the extent that the chosen "queue" itself is "correct".  I don't think you just want a "do the quick stuff first" system, because while that would frontload the flow of output, it's not necessarily the order you want it to be available.  Rather you want it to follow the definition-use dependencies as closely as possible, so that a) they even make sense, and don't need to be revised extensively latter, and b) they follow hot on the heels of other product, where the one might be seen as useful support for the other.

Now I don't know the 'correct' order for these to come out, so I make this point in the abstract, not in dogged defence of this particular case.   Obviously the Bestiary's been out for an age and it's the obvious one, but maybe the thinking here is that many of them also need additional Cults or Homelands books too?  (Darkness, Water, Spirit...)  Or not so much "need" as, those would be the books they'd most directly support.

In all such cases, I try to at least bear in mind all the other ones howling for how urgently needed or even "late" all the others are asserted to be.  The GMS was one recent source of non-pub incredulity, and the Sartar book, and I'm sure other people have been saying the same about the remainder of Cults.  So potentially you're not just picking a "fight" with Jeff and Jason, but all those people's clamouring pick-me competing concerns!

[g33k]

On 8/4/2024 at 1:31 PM, Brian Duguid said:

Personally, I doubt we'll see Telmori character generation from Chaosium until the (longer?) Telmor cult write-up appears in the Horned God / Hykim cults book.

But until then, there is of course this:

http://tiny.cc/TCoH

Because the Telmori are so very notable in the history of Sartar, they seem likely to get bumped up into that Homeland-book, not waiting for the general Hykimi book.
But I expect we'll have to wait 'til closer, to be sure either way.

And as I said, I think most GMs can interpolate from the core rulebook's Sartar homeland + the Telmori in the Bestiary, and maybe a few Googles or dives into the Well of Daliath, and come up with entirely-playable char-gen rules right now.

But yes:  the Children of Hykim is invaluable for all "regular" (not Chaos-werewolf) hsunchen purposes!

Edited August 6 by g33k

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

Because the Telmori are so very notable in the history of Sartar, they seem likely to get bumped up into that Homeland-book, not waiting for the general Hykimi book.
But I expect we'll have to wait 'til closer, to be sure either way.

...and the cult of Telmor is in the Bestiary, I added it to my character creation sheet even though they aren't presented there as "playable" with occupations etc.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

...and the cult of Telmor is in the Bestiary, I added it to my character creation sheet even though they aren't presented there as "playable" with occupations etc.

But the Bestiary also specifically calls out the Telmori as a viable PC'able option!  Despite the incomplete rules ...   🤪

[Jason Farrell]

19 hours ago, Alex said:

 I don't think you just want a "do the quick stuff first" system, because while that would frontload the flow of output, it's not necessarily the order you want it to be available. 

Even assuming that their layout person (people?) are engaged with an upcoming book every minute of every workday, which seems unlikely to me giving that there are other aspects to production that the layout person/people may often need to wait for, is there a meaningful difference in waiting for, say, the Sartar book until next July 3rd versus next July 5th?  I don't think there is.  But in one scenario, we have non-human pregens.

[Alex]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

...and the cult of Telmor is in the Bestiary, I added it to my character creation sheet even though they aren't presented there as "playable" with occupations etc.

I'd assume that the Telmori are fairly adequately described by assuming they're a subset of the 'standard' occus.  (Like, Hunter, Warrior, Noble, Priest, and Apprentice Shaman, off the top.)  Conceivable as it is that future pubs nuances that slightly.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Jason Farrell said:

Even assuming that their layout person (people?) are engaged with an upcoming book every minute of every workday, which seems unlikely to me giving that there are other aspects to production that the layout person/people may often need to wait for, is there a meaningful difference in waiting for, say, the Sartar book until next July 3rd versus next July 5th?  I don't think there is.  But in one scenario, we have non-human pregens.

I think you underestimate the time involved (at 2ish days).

But I think your point remains valid, that the 14 small bits of work (that are these 14 pre-gen PCs' layout jobs) seem like they could (and should) have been gotten through layout sooner.

But also:

On 8/1/2024 at 5:57 PM, Jason Farrell said:

a - they promised them 3 years ago to people who bought the product; they have an obligation not to ignore promises they made
...

Correction:  2 years, not 3 (announced 2022).

I think using "obligation" here carries a connotation of a legal/contractual obligation, that I don't believe exists.
Nevertheless, I agree:  an obligation -- at least an ethical obligation -- exists, to fulfill that promise.

And whether you round "2 years and some months" to 2 years or to 3 years... it has been a very, very long wait. 

Edited August 6 by g33k

[Alex]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:02 PM, g33k said:

But I think your point remains valid, that the 14 small bits of work (that are these 14 pre-gen PCs' layout jobs) seem like they could (and should) have been gotten through layout sooner.

Seems smaller than some, at least, sure.  But again, this is to frame it as being The Overall Top Priority -- far from clear to me -- and the only such "small" task that's bumping the longer ones.  I'm not sure that's accurate.  So many squeaky wheels here looking for the grease.

On 8/6/2024 at 11:02 PM, g33k said:

Nevertheless, I agree:  an obligation -- at least an ethical obligation -- exists, to fulfill that promise.

I'm getting flashbacks to Gaiman's infamous comment to a fan asking about a possible implicit contract to finish the Game of Thrones books, and feeling of letdown at their ongoing non-appearance.  (I won't repeat his tagline, as I don't think I have as much "love me, I'm a liberal" social credit to burn as he does.)  Yes, they did give a timeframe for these -- you can imagine they're kicking themselves and telling each other, "you forgot the first rule, don't give timelines until they're on the way to the printers!!" -- and they've now sailed about twenty months past that.  Honestly, that's small change in RPG slippage money.

I understand the frustrations and the urge to vent about them, but perhaps let's not get carried away with the suggestions of moral delict on their part here. 

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

... and they've now sailed about twenty months past that...

31 months... but who's counting?

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

... moral ...

The issue is ethical, not moral.

This is a long, long time to leave their promise unfulfilled (i.e. ethics).

But it's not like there's people going hungry (or medical needs going unfilled, or puppies being kicked, or etc) from what they have('nt) done (i.e. morals).

[svensson]

On 8/4/2024 at 12:04 PM, g33k said:

I am expecting them in the "Sartar book" ...  Possibly even in the next-up DP book?

Dragon Pass book is set to release in October. I asked this in a Q&A post.