Telmori, Wildday, timings

[TrvShane]

Hey folks,

I had a thought about Telmori that I can't find an answer to. If the day starts at sunset not sunrise in Dragon Pass, then the night of Wildday is from sunset on Fireday and ends when the sun rises on Wildday. However, if that is only in Dragon Pass:

• Do they change in the night before Wildday (Dragon Pass alignment to time)?
• Change in the night of Godday (Dragon Pass time) at the end of Wildday as the curse did not originate in Dragon Pass?
• Change based on thier locality, 'cause Chaos?

Is there a lore answer? If not, what do folk think, please?

Thanks,

Shane

[Squaredeal Sten]

Since Glorantha is flat and has no time zones, instead having a single world wide sunset and sunrise, I would say Wildday is Wildday over the whole world.

[Nick Brooke]

The change seems to be tied to the phase of the Red Moon rather than the day of the week. Almost everywhere we’ve played games, SE of Glamour, the Full Moon is on Wildday: there’s a map with a useful Moon Bezel in “A Rough Guide to Glamour” if you want an idea of how the cycle works elsewhere.

I’d advise you to have Lunar phases change in sync with days of the week (i.e: always at sunset), but “YGWV” and “Nobody can make you do anything (sensible)” are our twin watchwords.

[Brian Duguid]

According to The Coming Storm, they take wolf form "as soon as the sun goes down on Wildday and remain a wolf until sunrise". That agrees with Dorastor: Land of Doom, which says "every Wildday night".

As Sten says, there are no timezones in Glorantha, so Wildday night will be the same everywhere, from dusk to dawn.

Canonically (from the Dorastor book), it's Wildday that governs, and the full Red Moon in Dragon Pass is just a coincidence. The curse was in place long before the Red Moon rose into the sky.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Brian Duguid

[Akhôrahil]

Bestiary:

"Each Wildday, which happens to be the night of the Full Moon in Dragon Pass, each Telmori must change to their beast form and roam the countryside."

So it's the day, not the moon phase. Days in at least the Sartarite start with the sunset, not the sunrise, so the sun sets, Wildday starts, and Telmori shift (presumably for the next 24 hours).

This means that in some places, Wildday is not Full Moon (Dorastor and Talastar are examples), but this is irrelevant to Telmori shifting. The shapechange isn't tied to the moon, it's tied to the energies of Wildday.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

As Sten says, there are no timezones in Glorantha, so Wildday night will be the same everywhere, from dusk to dawn.

The closest thing we could come to time zones is if Gloranthan light (like the Discworld's) is somehow slow enough that dawn and dusk doesn't hit everywhere at the same time.

[TrvShane]

Thanks, all really useful. The point by @Akhôrahil about it being tied to day not moon phase is key.

In terms of time zones, I'm not talking about that  - I am talking about when the day is determined to start. My confusion is that is says in the Glorantha Calendar PDF that "In Dragon Pass, the day begins at nightfall and not dawn."

2 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

According to The Coming Storm, they take wolf form "as soon as the sun goes down on Wildday and remain a wolf until sunrise". That agrees with Dorastor: Land of Doom, which says "every Wildday night".

As Sten says, there are no timezones in Glorantha, so Wildday night will be the same everywhere, from dusk to dawn.

Canonically (from the Dorastor book), it's Wildday that governs, and the full Red Moon in Dragon Pass is just a coincidence. The curse was in place long before the Red Moon rose into the sky.

So the two itallic statements are in opposition in Dragon Pass. The "sun goes down on Wildday" is the night of Godday in Dragon Pass. Wildday night in Dragon Pass starts at sunset on Fireday and preceeds Wildday daytime.

Is that the day cycle defined the same way in Dorastor, or do the people there class the night of Wildday being after the day of Wilday, and not before it as the Dragon Pass folks do? In which case, in Dragon Pass the change would follow Wildday daytime, and be in Godday night?

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by TrvShane

[metcalph]

The Telmori don't follow the Orlanthi definition of when the day starts because they have been tainted with chaos.  'nuff sid.

[Ormi Phengaria]

Yet Wolf Hide and Wolfrunning cannot be cast on Waterday or Clayday. Those are the Dying and Black Moon phases in Dragon Pass, and seem to be rather arbitrary choices anywhere else. So there's a bit more to the Moon mystery than first appears.

[Nick Brooke]

OK, quick time out. You’re aware that in traditional real-world folklore, werewolves change form on the night of the full moon, yes?

[TrvShane]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

OK, quick time out. You’re aware that in traditional real-world folklore, werewolves change form on the night of the full moon, yes?

Well yes, but the books specifically tell us that association in Dragon Pass is a misunderstanding.

I have gone with the night after wild day for my game last night. I just see this is quite an interesting discussion on interpretation of the lore.

[Nick Brooke]

OK, to me this is one of those things where layers of cruft can build up and lead to silly results.* When the Telmori were first defined, they shape-changed on Wildday, which happens to be the day of the Full Moon in Dragon Pass and Prax. But of course the Telmori were cursed in the late Dawn Age, and the Red Moon didn't rise until the early Third Age. So the text says, "They shapechange on Wildday, which is nowadays the day of the Full Moon."

But did the authors seriously think, "What about places where the Red Moon isn't full on Wildday?"

My take, wielding Occam's Razor, is that since the rise of the Red Moon, the Telmori transformation (due to a Chaos taint) happens at the Full Moon, whichever night that is, because of the association between the Red Moon and Chaos. Before that, it happened on Wildday night, wherever in the world you might be, because that was the "most Chaotic night" before the rise of the Red Moon.

(The alternative would be that werewolves in up Fronela shapechange involuntarily at the Dark Moon, which seems silly.)

* Prime example: the Red Moon per Cults of Prax: not visible anywhere outside the Glowline, and always visibly full within it. "Phases, what phases?" 

** Second example: the RQ2-era bollocks about Rune metals blocking magic, so all coinage and jewellery are crafted from debased alloys. Daft. Some enchanted Rune metals block magic.

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, TrvShane said:

Is that the day cycle defined the same way in Dorastor, or do the people there class the night of Wildday being after the day of Wilday, and not before it as the Dragon Pass folks do? In which case, in Dragon Pass the change would follow Wildday daytime, and be in Godday night?

Who the hell knows how it's done in Dorastor (not sure time even always flows properly there), but I would imagine that that Talastarings have the Dragon Pass system, having picked it up from Theyalan missionaries if nothing else.

[Akhôrahil]

But I agree, we often say "Telmori become wolves on Wildday", but both the quotes indicates it's only for the duration of the Wildday night. This certainly matters.

[TrvShane]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

My take, wielding Occam's Razor, is that since the rise of the Red Moon, the Telmori transformation (due to a Chaos taint) happens at the Full Moon, whichever night that is, because of the association between the Red Moon and Chaos. Before that, it happened on Wildday night, wherever in the world you might be, because that was the "most Chaotic night" before the rise of the Red Moon.

This makes perfect sense.

[JRE]

Does that mean that Telmori within the Glowline are always in wolf form? I doubt it, but that would give Argrath an excellent way to spread terror in Tarsh while weakening the Telmori.

I prefer it if in Glorantha werewolves, or other werecreatures are not linked to any Moon, but their own beast rune.

However, out of respect for Nick, I have a suggestion. The Telmori source of power was Nysalor, who is now part of the Moon as Rashorana. So Telmori used to take wolf form in Wildday night. After the Red Moon rose in the sky, they became wolves also during the Full Red Moon. Horrified at becoming mindless twice a week, most of the Cursed ones drifted through Glorantha and settled in one of the few areas where the two days are the same, to turn only once a week.

[Bren]

For some reason, I thought that the day started with sunrise, not sunset. Is there a mythological or other reason for that?

 

Unfortunately, if Wildday starts at sunset and the moon changes at sunset, then during the daytime one cannot (accurately) say, as in classic English horror movies, "Beware! Tonight is the night of the Full Moon" or "It's a Full Moon tonight." Before sunset, the night of the Full Moon is technically tomorrow night. After sunset, it's this night and after sunrise, it's last night.

[Ormi Phengaria]

9 hours ago, JRE said:

Does that mean that Telmori within the Glowline are always in wolf form? I doubt it, but that would give Argrath an excellent way to spread terror in Tarsh while weakening the Telmori.

The moon is considered to be at Half at all times within the Glowline. It's within the Silver Shadow (and Glowspots) where the phase is always considered as Full.

The intersection of magical geography and Time has always carried meaning. I would say the whole bit about Wildday being either the universal or the historical day of transformation is inferring from flawed, if understandable, premises. It has probably also been emphasized to clear the Wolfbrother allies of Sartar of anything more than a distant association to the Red Moon. My suspicion is that the old transformation day for the Nysaloran Telmori was still Freezeday; in Dorastor and Aggar, it would be Godday.

[Joerg]

Just because werewolves are tied to the 28 or so day cycle in our world doesn't have to mean that a Lunar connection was anywhere in the original gift by Nysalor or curse of Talor. While Talor may have had some beef with Croesia, the Blue Moon goddess of the city named after her, there is no link to the wolf people in its description at all.

If the rise of the Red Moon yanked the Wildday date from the transformation, that would have been a momentous and memorable event in Telmori history, with huge mythical repercussions, and probably quite a bit of questing. Occam's Full Moon Razor should provide some stuff for adventuring.

edit: and this was not meant as criticism of any kind, but as a suggestion to investigate the consequences of either possibility. Ideally in whacky gaming.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Joerg

[Nick Brooke]

(1st para) I never suggested there was; (2nd para) I never suggested it wasn't.

[Lordabdul]

In reality, nobody knows -- people living near Telmori lands have a bunch of confused horror stories about giant magical wolves coming out on various given nights of the week, and after a couple generations it's all mixed up. People living elsewhere are hearing second and third hand versions of these tales and probably have completely incorrect knowledge unless they're a scholar who studied this stuff. The Telmori keep everybody on their toes by mixing their Chaotic auto-transformation with deliberate use of their Rune Magic to transform just the same, and confuse everybody as to what day is really the actual "cursed day" of the legends.

(people are probably confused because in reality the Telmori transform from 00:01 AM on Wildday to 23:59PM on the same day... giving them more or less two nights to attack the neighbours, which they happily alternate to keep them guessing... Talor was a Malkioni and those people work on strictly scientific timelines... it's probably based on star positions or some other boring shit)

Edited June 16, 2023 by Lordabdul