Optional Rule: Metagaming Points

[Mankcam]

Yes, I currently have that situation in my Glorantha game in regards to relics/holy items being able to have their PP accessed for purposes of Fate use, just as long as the characters can tie the explanation to their deity. Seems fun so far, like a minor form of divine intervention. I wouldn't allow any 'neutral' sources of PP to be used in this way, such as Power Crystal etc.

I was considering having the re-roll taken out in favour for Fate increasing the success level instead (like HeroQuest's 'bump' rules as previously pointed out, which I quite like). It does have it's merits, but I think as a GM still I enjoy the random whims of the dice roll - a Fumble followed by a rerolled Fumble makes for a great night's entertainment! Not sure players would agree though heh heh

[soltakss]

Also, if you bump a Fumble, all you'll get is a Failure. If you reroll then you could get a critical. Much more incentive to try.

[RosenMcStern]

I think I would agree with Fate not being used for Fumble re-rolls (or make them double usual PP cost at least). Fumbles are such a great part of this combat system, I wouldn't want to see them hitched by the Fate option that's for sure.

You see, this is exactly the kind of comment that makes me extremely skeptical about this approach to Fate Points - which I appreciate in general.

Fate Points are not there as another way of gaining tactical advantages: in order to win battles or to make them more exciting, there is planning and caution. Fate Points are there to prevent unheroic, anti-climactic endings for your Truly Heroic Deeds. They are there to avoid the die roll altogether, if the action really counts for the story.

But if you rule that you cannot apply them to a fumble, then your wonderfully planned action can still end in disaster if you roll 00. Definitely not fun.

This is also a good reason why you should not allow PP from external sources to act as Fate Points. Influencing a die roll should be something that can happen only 2-3 times per session. Players should roll a fumble and think "Ok, I might strain an ankle but it's still ok, let us save those Fate Points for the moment this pesky trollkin rolls a critical."

[Mankcam]

Some interesting arguements raised here. I see the point in regards to the Fumble roll, it would be harsh to prevent player-characters access to Fate in such circumstances. To tell the truth, it has never come up in the last few sessions since I introduced the Fate option to the players. They often forget to call on Fate anyway, after not having in my previous BRP games - I think I can remember only a few instances when my players have used Fate. So I don't have a wide experience with the Fate option during gameplay, just a few isolated instances, during which there appeared to be no problems with the mechanics.

I'm more inclined to let Fate be used for Fumbles if the player-characters really want to, although it would be sad to see every fumble negated like this, as many of our most entertaining gaming moments have come from combat fumbles.

I appreciate the stance regarding Fate using PP from external sources, but it seems to work, using religious relics and such. It wouldn't suit every game, probably not Cthuhlu or something like that, but so far it seems okay for my fantasy setting. I'll have to see how it plays out I guess.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Mankcam

[sdavies2720]

...I'm more inclined to let Fate be used for Fumbles if the player-characters really want to, although it would be sad to see every fumble negated like this, as many of our most entertaining gaming moments have come from combat fumbles...

This is where things ended up in our game: Every fumble was negated. This was an outgrowth of too many Fate points, and rerolls being one of the most powerful uses. We never had more than 2-3 used in a session, but they were inevitably either for re-rolls or to reduce damage effects.

I've rectified by reducing the number of things for which Fate can be used, correspondingly reducing the number of points awarded, but making Fate more powerful in those situations (we're essentially using the MRQII system now) . It was a new change as of two games ago, and so far the results are good.

Steve

[Simlasa]

Yeah, I think I'd be OK, in some styles of campaign, with points used to 'bump' the success/failure level... and only a few points available per session.

Having some battery source of PP to use for re-rolls, no way!

[frogspawner]

How about this... Characters have a few (say 3) personality traits, and Fate only allows them a re-roll while doing something notably in accordance with one of their traits - and/or Heroic, perhaps (if 'Fate' likes that sort of thing...).

[seneschal]

Yeah, I think I'd be OK, in some styles of campaign, with points used to 'bump' the success/failure level... and only a few points available per session.

Having some battery source of PP to use for re-rolls, no way!

That's the way Action! System handles it. PCs have only 1 or 2 Action! Points per session to spend. So they can grunt out that extra effort during the world-saving grandstand play ... but they can't alter the laws of probability on a regular basis.

[RosenMcStern]

How about this... Characters have a few (say 3) personality traits, and Fate only allows them a re-roll while doing something notably in accordance with one of their traits - and/or Heroic, perhaps (if 'Fate' likes that sort of thing...).

Also, it is [almost] exactly how it works in my new system.

[GianniVacca]

This is where things ended up in our game: Every fumble was negated.

Page 176 clearly states:

You can spend five power points to re-roll any percentile dice roll when the results are unfavorable.

Your player characters must have had loads of fate points to be able to negate every fumble!

[frogspawner]

Also, it is [almost] exactly how it works in my new system.

Wow! Really? (Been too insanely busy recently to look - sorry). But with "bumps" instead or rerolls, I guess...

[sdavies2720]

Page 176 clearly states:

You can spend five power points to re-roll any percentile dice roll when the results are unfavorable.

Your player characters must have had loads of fate points to be able to negate every fumble!

I used an alternate system that used fewer points for a reroll and had a bunch of other uses for points. Players usually horded them to make sure they had enough points in case they got hit badly. Fumbles that matter only occurred once every few sessions, so they would often just burn the points to make them go away.

[RosenMcStern]

I used an alternate system that used fewer points for a reroll and had a bunch of other uses for points. Players usually horded them to make sure they had enough points in case they got hit badly. Fumbles that matter only occurred once every few sessions, so they would often just burn the points to make them go away.

IIRC the current system allows rerolls and not bumps (like Savage Worlds), and I have witnessed a re-roll of a fumble resulting in another fumble with my own eyes. But many people prefer "bumps" like you have in MarvelSuperheroes or HeroQuest and personalize the rules. It is a matter of taste, but also of how it works in practice.

I do not see the negation of fumbles as being evil. As SDavies states here, players wil tend to hoard Fate Points once they get how they work, and will manage to always have some ready when they are about to meet Mr Big Hitter. This means that they are likely to accept the consequences of "colour" fumbles (think of Jack Barton in "Big Trouble in Little China") in order to save fate for the climax of the story. Actually, I have come to think that "Big Trouble" is the perfect example of how a Metagame Point mechanics should work. If your system can re-create that story, it works.