Bless Crops, duration and runepoints question!

[Malin]

Yes, it is me, back with weird questions about rule wordings. (I know my glorantha will vary and maximum game fun, but I am always curious about designer intentions and how magic interacts with daily life.)

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Bless Crops 1 Point ex Ritual, Duration (special) Stackable '

This ritual affects one hide of land. It adds +20% to the owner’s occupational skill rating for that hide in the following Sacred Time (RuneQuest, page 420). For each point stacked in the spell, the caster adds either an additional hide to the area affected or +20% to the Income roll in Sacred Time (RuneQuest, page 422)

 

My questions are:

• When can this spell be cast? Traditional descriptions of rites seem to suggest Earth Season, but rules-wise, there is nothing to stop someone from using it the day before sacred time and have the same effect. In Bless Pregnancy, the first trimester is specified, and I am using this to have it be cast in Sea Season in my game, but it is not specified in the rules.
• If it is cast, when are the rune points recovered? I assume it is during the harvest?

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Malin

[Nick Brooke]

My answers are the same as yours: bless the crops in Sea Season when you plant them, then regain the Rune point(s) you used at the Earth Season High Holy Day. If someone really wants to explore winter wheat / multiple harvests, they can do the legwork.

[Malin]

Just did a small calculation of a Sun County stead, it seems rather workable.

Assumption: A family stead of Yelmalio cultist, Ernalda cultist, same grandparents. They work 4 hides. 12 rune points in total.

If each hide is blessed, that means 4 RP tied up in bless crops during half the year. Maybe 2 tied up in bless pregnancy if that is going on.

Yelmalio dad: 2 points tied up in bless crops, 1 free for emergency healing/cloud clear, returned every season.

Yelmalio grampa: All 3 free for that old man wisdom (Heal Body emergencies), can do Divinations, Heal Wound, Cloud Clear.

Ernalda mom: 2 point tied up in bless crops. 1 free but can be regained every week with effort if needed. This point can be used for minor agriculture stuff, healing etc. Useful spells are: Fertilize before the sowing, Plow along the rim, Accelerate Growth for speed growing fruit trees a bit at a time, Bless Animals, Heal Wounds. Earthwarm protects against frost, and Brew can be useful too.

Ernalda gramma: 2 point sometimes tied up in Bless Pregnancy when there’s time for a grandchild. The rest is for farming and emergencies as above.

If you add any initiated children, aunts, uncles etc, then more Bless Crops can be stacked to feed the larger family on the same number of hides.

Conclusion: Yelmalio farmers are as involved in Bless Crops as Ernaldan ones. Ernalda has SO MUCH demand for her rune points when it comes to useful Farming things (and childbirth/procreation), it feels like any healing would be a secondary function. The Yelmalio husbands having access to Heal Body is probably a big relief there.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Malin

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Malin said:

Just did a small calculation of a Sun County stead, it seems rather workable.

Assumption: A family stead of Yelmalio cultist, Ernalda cultist, same grandparents. They work 4 hides. 12 rune points in total.

Never mind the magic, how does this small family work four hides? How do they get plowed or worked?

Also, note that spending four Rune Points for four hides is typically inefficient - a fifth would double the effect and a sixth triple it. Even if you only spend the four, it’s typically preferable to Bless two or three hides instead (for 2*+3 or 3*+2) unless the +20% is just what you need to get rid of the risk of failure.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Malin]

Just stole the family of one of my players for the experiment, though, to be fair, that also included unmarried farmhands, older but initiated children, and some siblings and their children. Just focused on the core for the rune points, didn't feel like detailing the aunts and uncles. If we move it down to two hides, it's even more feasible.

Edit: Specifically, Her brother and his wife and child, Her cousin and her husband and baby, her other cousin and his wife and five children, an aging grandfather and a young widow. Plus the odd farmhand, usually hired on during peak agricultural work. So 4 hides for about 4 families.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Malin

[Malin]

50 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, note that spending four Rune Points for four hides is typically inefficient - a fifth would double the effect and a sixth triple it. Even if you only spend the four, it’s typically preferable to Bless two or three hides instead (for 2*+3 or 3*+2) unless the +20% is just what you need to get rid of the risk of failure.

I literally wrote it in two minutes to see how many tied-up rune points could still be feasible for a family and keep functioning, I did not do any maths, so I only did the basic 1 rp %+20, and neither did I do any calculations for cost-effectiveness.

EDIT: This actually makes it feasible to run a very content and big family on a single hide of farmland actually, if you stack the runepoints you can have great harvests (getting your Farming skill close to 100). (If you are a shitty farmer you can always pray hard enough to the gods to make it work I suppose). And in bad years, or post-famine, one can assume more people would have rune points tied up in bless crops, which incidentally means less free for better health. So famine strikes hard in two ways.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Malin

[Nick Brooke]

"Bless the best fields with the richest crops!"

"No, bless the fields that need most help, on poorer land with marginal crops!"

My wife and my mother never did see eye-to-eye about Ernaldan cult doctrine...

The general point, that a lot of ordinary people's Rune magic is already being used in their everyday lives, is well made. Not every Sartarite you bump into has three Rune points, for starters (while every "adventurer" does, not every NPC is a potential adventurer), and even if they did, they might well have expended some or all of them already on activities of everyday living. And they aren't all racking up more Rune points and spells over time, like an adventurer does. More on this sort of thing in my free Manifesto, qv. 

[Akhôrahil]

33 minutes ago, Malin said:

This actually makes it feasible to run a very content and big family on a single hide of farmland actually, if you stack the runepoints you can have great harvests (getting your Farming skill close to 100).

One hide for an extended family or a substantial amount of other people under one roof seems to be the idea. Survival (admittedly a low bar) requires only something like two acres per person.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Malin]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One hide for an extended family or a substantial amount of other people under one roof seems to be the idea.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that you need to do manage household for the others... good spot!

[Akhôrahil]

RQG numbers are a bit weird - a Roman tenant family (or the land grant for serving as legionnairy) was something like 5-10 acres, while RQ tenants get a whopping 80 acres. On the other hand, their tax and rent burden on this huge tract of land is beyond extreme by historical standards (60%!). So maybe it evens out? 🙂

Edited September 27, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Malin]

The amount of acres varies though? I imagine that a hide of really good farmland is a lot smaller than a hide of mainly grazing land. And, I might misremember, but wasn't there a lot of complaining at the time that the plots given out to legionnaries were too small? Though I can't tell you were I read that so... The tax burden varies depending on where you live (not too familiar with Sartar in that respect, not sure where you got 60%). Desperately looking to see if the exact tax rate of Sun County was ever mentioned in the old book, considering it's the Yelmalio cult that collects it there... but I am only seeing the standard 20% in the rule book for Ernalda and her Husband (which also counts as cult tithes for the initiates) so I suppose it's fair to assume that goes there as well.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Malin

[Scotty]

4 hours ago, Malin said:

My questions are:

• When can this spell be cast? Traditional descriptions of rites seem to suggest Earth Season, but rules-wise, there is nothing to stop someone from using it the day before sacred time and have the same effect. In Bless Pregnancy, the first trimester is specified, and I am using this to have it be cast in Sea Season in my game, but it is not specified in the rules.
• If it is cast, when are the rune points recovered? I assume it is during the harvest?

and

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

My answers are the same as yours: bless the crops in Sea Season when you plant them, then regain the Rune point(s) you used at the Earth Season High Holy Day. If someone really wants to explore winter wheat / multiple harvests, they can do the legwork.

These are great answers, and clearly the right ones. Note that you can cast the spell on a variety of plants, so the growing season may vary a bit, likewise with trees such as apples.

I will add this the the Bless Crops Q&A.

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One hide for an extended family or a substantial amount of other people under one roof seems to be the idea. Survival (admittedly a low bar) requires only something like two acres per person.

Please remember that the hide is a variable amount, used to calculate the excess for the end of year costs.

1 hide of land = 10 acres of apples = 20 cattle = 100 sheep

See alo Quality of Land in W&E 102

We caution against using the RQG rules for SimGlorantha. 

[SDLeary]

59 minutes ago, Scotty said:

...SimGlorantha

I suggest Civ Glorantha... The maps, leaders and cultural bonus' should be easier to do! 😉

SDLeary

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Malin said:

Yelmalio dad: 2 points tied up in bless crops, 1 free for emergency healing/cloud clear, returned every season.

Yelmalio grampa: All 3 free for that old man wisdom (Heal Body emergencies), can do Divinations, Heal Wound, Cloud Clear.

my main concern (but that my understanding of the cult, I may be wrong, It would not be the first time :p) is the yelmalio aspect of your family:

 

warning : all value judgements I expose is based on the yelmalian perspective -or what I imagine to be, don't hesitate to tell me if I am out - , in all cases it is not my irl values 😛

 

if they have 4 hides they are near to be rune lord/ priest for one of them. That would surprise me, then, than your yelmalians have no war spells. They should first focus on these spells. And if they have a lot of rp, then yes why not bless crops, but learning it in the first steps of the career in the cult ? for a simple farmer, why not, but for 4 hides!

Of course they may thank any warrior ancestor who gained this land (and all the previous members who succeed to manage the land well - if not they should not have the land -), but what a shame to see his heirs becoming simple farmers

 

so if your family leader (dad ?) is rich, he should be a good templar or do what he can (aka learn good spells) to become a good templar. And if it is grand pa, that's the same AND he would expect his son (dad) to do the same

now of course a specific character may be very peaceful, but grand pa + dad ? a lot of people may be jealous of simple famers with so much land.

 

my personal "rule" is : if the character is a farmer, then he has one hide. If the character has 4 hides, he is warrior or noble or priest.

Note that I don't forget the women, but for a Yelmalio family I focus on the man. Of course an explanation would be that one of the women is a Earh priestess, but then why marry with a ... banal husband ? when you are blessed by the goddess you need a protector, not a plowman

am I in my too dark glorantha or does it make sense ? don't know ^^

[Malin]

25 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my main concern (but that my understanding of the cult, I may be wrong, It would not be the first time :p) is the yelmalio aspect of your family:

As I said in the follow up post above, this family constellation actually includes:

Quote

Her brother and his wife and child, Her cousin and her husband and baby, her other cousin and his wife and five children, an aging grandfather and a young widow. Plus the odd farmhand, usually hired on during peak agricultural work. So 4 hides for about 4 families.

So a lot of adults. I just stopped specifying rune points, because I had no idea people would engage in family constellations or sizes rather than the point of the post which was you could afford to tie up rune points in Bless Crops...

As for the average Yelmalio, there are actually almost no war rune spells for Yelmalio. They do get some light related spells (which i did not specify because the post was about farming), but most of Yelmalio's warrior cred comes from training as a group, and gifts that increases weapon skills. Orlanth is the one with fancy war spells, Yelmalio ain't got that. Just the basic ones, which you don't sacrifice POW for.

Also, the hides in Sun County are not owned by a family, they are parceled out by the Sun Dome. A lot of time, political connections are more important there than an illustrious past. They are also shared by lot, so it's not like every family gets the same land each year. We're about 106 000 words into our tentatively named "Life and Traditions Under the Sun Dome" (one reason for my rules questions) so I might be digging deep into stuff here, but yeah, your Glorantha will always vary, but War Rune Magic for Yelmalio to sacrifice for is sorely lacking.

EDIT: I would guess the average Yelmalio warrior might pick Heal Body, since most are farmers, Bless Crops will be useful if they don't want to be a burden to their wife, and then pick either Catseye, Cloud Clear, Command Hawk or Sunbright. None of them are exactly war spells. Catseye and Sunbright are the most useful for that. So a true warrior mercenary with no thoughts about farming might have Heal Body, Catseye and Sunbright.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Malin

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Malin said:

Also, the hides in Sun County are not owned by a family, they are parceled out by the Sun Dome. A lot of time, political connections are more important there than an illustrious past. They are also shared by lot, so it's not like every family gets the same land each year. We're about 106 000 words into our tentatively named "Life and Traditions Under the Sun Dome" (one reason for my rules questions) so I might be digging deep into stuff here, but yeah, your Glorantha will always vary, but War Rune Magic for Yelmalio to sacrifice for is sorely lacking.

I based my answer about ancestor on the sun county supplement, well the french version "les guerriers du soleil" so sorry for the translations (I put the FR version in case of):

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FR scenario "la ferme chapeau lapin" --> EN scenario "hat rabbit farm" ?

 

As you said, the land is the count ownership, but there are some interesting things at the end of the scenario

about FR "la concession de seigneurie d'Oreilles Dorées" -> EN "concession for the seigneurie of golden ears" ?

there is an old adage :

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FR "trois prélèvements vérifient la coutume" -> EN "three tax levies verify the custom"

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FR "si le fief paie ses impôts pendant trois années consécutives, elle (sic) devient virtuellement la propriété des aventuriers, et ils pourront la transmettre à leurs héritiers sans rencontrer d'obstacles"

EN "if the fief pays its taxes for three consecutive years, it (sic) virtually becomes the property of the adventurers, and they will be able to transmit it to their heirs without encountering obstacles"

 

so my conclusion (is it specific to the sun county because traditionalist ? or all counties apply about the same ?) :  there are to way to obtain lands in yelamlio counties:

a) you must prove your martial value (or do some exceptional things for your count) and you gain "new land"

b) you must continue to manage the farm you get before because your previous (a)  or because your ancestor's (a) without any issue with the tax (that could be difficult of course)

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Please remember that the hide is a variable amount, used to calculate the excess for the end of year costs.

1 hide of land = 10 acres of apples = 20 cattle = 100 sheep

Sure, but: ”It is between 80 and 120 acres” (p. 404, Core rulebook).

(I’m impressed with the productivity of apple orchards.)

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sure, but: ”It is between 80 and 120 acres” (p. 404, Core rulebook).

(I’m impressed with the productivity of apple orchards.)

Apple orchards provide additional pasture and second grade hay.

An acre is an area measure that is about as useful to people like me (outside of the US) as would be square stadia or square leagues.

I still run with the concept that one AAA map hex ("of 8 miles") will feed 500 people with three quarters of the land non-arable commons, as that is roughly the population density of Sartar.

I cannot find how many people are supposed to work on a hide - an extended family household will easily have more than a dozen actual family members, and possibly some associated people of lower class relying on the productivity of the household.

It is also hard to tell how a large household with more than one player character will be impacted by the characters taking more leave than the rules assign.

 

So yes - the rules of RQG are definitely not useful for SimGlorantha. Having a SimGlorantha might be useful for some GMs.

[Akhôrahil]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I cannot find how many people are supposed to work on a hide - an extended family household will easily have more than a dozen actual family members, and possibly some associated people of lower class relying on the productivity of the household.

The ever-useful sample clan on p. 406 of the rulebook has this generic clan of presumably 800 - 1000 individuals use 200 hides and hide-equivalents, so that’s a rough guide (4-5 people per hide).

This might not be quite as useful as it seems, though - a temple herd of one hide’s worth might have just one person (like a young herder) working it and not supporting any other family member, while a large-ish family of a dozen wouldn’t starve on a hide of land.

But it does provide an average.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Byll]

The acre was a bit of a movable feast originally, being the area of land that a early medieval European ploughman with two oxen could work in an average day in the open field system. That might depend a fair bit upon soil type or the year's weather.

When it needed standardising it became 66 feet (20.1m) by 660 feet (201m), 43500 square-feet (4050m^2) in England. That's 1/80 of a mile by 1/8 of a mile which was the fashion at the time, chains and furlongs and such.

[Joerg]

40 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The ever-useful sample clan on p. 406 of the rulebook has this generic clan of presumably 800 - 1000 individuals use 200 hides and hide-equivalents, so that’s a rough guide (4-5 people per hide).

Which calculates to about 100-120 arable acres out of four times that amount as possible maximum for Esrolia.

9 minutes ago, Byll said:

The acre was a bit of a movable feast originally, being the area of land that a early medieval European ploughman with two oxen could work in an average day in the open field system. That might depend a fair bit upon soil type or the year's weather.

When it needed standardising it became 66 feet (20.1m) by 660 feet (201m), 43500 square-feet (4050m^2) in England. That's 1/80 of a mile by 1/8 of a mile which was the fashion at the time, chains and furlongs and such.

Assuming these standard measures as an average, that would mean 400,000 to 500,000 square meters of arable land per hide. Or 0.4 to 0.5 square kilometers, about 1the one percent of the total area of a hex.

As a German, I am familiar with the Morgen, a quarter of a hectare or 25,000 square meters as the amount of acreage that could be plowed in one morning - half a day. 20% more for a full day - bloody German efficiency at work, or just more modern plowing equipment?

Even a predominantly grain-cultivating clan would need to dedicate a fair bit of area to pasture for their oxen and the cows required to re-plenish the stock. Still, quadrupling the population for Esrolian conditions will be very hard unless there is less land left fallow over there.

 

43 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This might not be quite as useful as it seems, though - a temple herd of one hide’s worth might have just one person (like a young herder) working it and not supporting any other family member, while a large-ish family of a dozen wouldn’t starve on a hide of land.

But it does provide an average.

A herd hide would include pasture near the stables for hay-making and pasture in the outlands where transhumant grazing takes place.

 

My question really is how to deal with at best moderately well-off households with the equivalent of two to four core families under one roof run by the parents of at least some of these core families.

 

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As a German, I am familiar with the Morgen, a quarter of a hectare or 25,000 square meters as the amount of acreage that could be plowed in one morning - half a day. 20% more for a full day - bloody German efficiency at work, or just more modern plowing equipment?

Even just a horse-pulled medieval or post-medieval turning plow is massively more efficient than the stuff Orlanthi use.

1 acre = 0.4 hectares is what I keep in my head for acreages.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

My question really is how to deal with at best moderately well-off households with the equivalent of two to four core families under one roof run by the parents of at least some of these core families.

It seems that the idea is approximately one hide per such family, or the sample clan numbers stop making sense. A longhouse then needs multiple hides attached to it.

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, does anyone have an idea how cottars get their fields plowed, given that by definition they don’t have a plow team? Borrow one (this means that there has to be excess plow teams available for it)? Work the fields it by hand (doable, but I doubt you can manage a full hide that way)?

(This would work out easier if they had a smaller patch of land and then had to put their excess labor to work on someone else’s fields.)

Edited September 28, 2023 by Akhôrahil