Bless Crops, duration and runepoints question!

[Byll]

Not that it's that relevant to the old anglo-saxon 1 hide supporting one extended peasant family, but by the Norman conquest 1 hide was assessed as whatever area gave the equivalent around 220 silver pennies annual income (for tax purposes).

They were allocated to towns villages or estates in multiples of 5 hides in the Doomsday Book

[Squaredeal Sten]

re

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

By the way, does anyone have an idea how cottars get their fields plowed, given that by definition they don’t have a plow team? Borrow one (this means that there has to be excess plow teams available for it)? Work the fields it by hand (doable, but I doubt you can manage a full hide that way)?

(This would work out easier if they had a smaller patch of land and then had to put their excess labor to work on someone else’s fields.)

Cottars who farm work someone else's land and the "someone else" owns the plow and oxen as well as the hide of land.  They are the agricultural laborers who are not members of the steadholder's family.   They may actually guide the plow or goad the oxen, they hoe the weeds, they swing the sickle and bind the sheaves.   They get paid with use of enough land for a hut plus a garden, which is worked with a hoe or even a digging stick. and probably are paid wages and fed in busy seasons.   They may get their cash money from selling garden vegetables.

(Glorantha appears to have no modern style itinerant farm laborers, so the farmhands have to be provided for somehow and are members of the clan, meaning they have more rights in practice than your itinerant laborer even though they cannot vote.  Tom Joad is not born yet.)

Cottars who herd, don't need a plow team.  These are many of your shepherds and cowherds.  In summer they are expected to camp near the flock in the high pastures.  In winter they have a hut at the stead or the village, and if they are lucky they are employed feeding hay to the herd.  Maybe they also helped cut that hay.

Otherwise like many other peasants in  winter, cottars eke out a living as generic crafters.  Maybe also as construction laborers; When your Adventurers buy land improvements IAW W&E, who do you think makes the adobe bricks or digs post holes and hauls logs for a palisade?

[Malin]

I think at this point the only clear conclusion we can come to is that our SimGlorantha will vary 🙂

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even just a horse-pulled medieval or post-medieval turning plow is massively more efficient than the stuff Orlanthi use.

The ard used by the Orlanthi without magical support magic may be less efficient than the Anglo-Saxon ploughs from around the Tribal Hideage or the Domesday Book. With full magical support, a plow driven by a Barntar godtalker is bound to approach the efficiency of a small modern tractor on hard terrain.

While RQG doesn't lend itself to simulating ancient agriculture, RQ3 DeLuxe Gamemasters' Book had an excellent chapter on how agricultural societies divide up their lands, with radii around their villages as an easy approximation. With 3 km (2 miles) between hamlets (of 50, IIRC), there would be one quarter the distance for plowland, up to one half for pasture (haymaking), and the rest of the distance managed roughs for pig-herding, woodcutting and other "forest" activities allowed for semi-free farmers or better. Assuming a triangular grid of hamlets for optimal division of terrain, we get 3 quarters of the good density terrain as roughs, 3 16ths of the terrain as pasture, and 1 16th as plowland.

A hex 8 miles across would have space for 16 such hamlets (the AAA hexes are rotated 30 or 90 degrees, but the area distribution doesn't change):

or 800 inhabitants. It is possible to re-arrange the land use around a few central villages as long as no field is more than an hour's walking from the living place of the farmers (or their storage facilities). (I remember the super-sized Tripolje culture villages being a bit of a problem for the theories about their logistics.)

Few places in Sartar would allow for such an even distribution, most would have to arrange with the ridges and river bottoms dictating the distribution of arable lands, nearby pasture and roughs.

RQ3 went on to say that under optimum conditions like the Nile Delta the roughs could be ignored, allowing four times the population density. At a guess, the Esrolian Mesopotamia can be considered the equivalent of the Nile Delta.

Which brings us to the amount of Bless Crops required for a group of 50 (i.e. 30 adults): 5 rune points for a simple bonus, 8-10 rune points for double bonus (with a few individuals spending 3 points on two hides for double bonus, the rest 2 points on a single hide) unless you assume better-than adventurer priestesshood individuals getting the sweet deal of spending 6 rune points at once for double bonus all five hides, or 7 for triple bonus, 8 for quadruple etc. This does leave discretionary non-adventurer rune points for the blessing of births and other such long term blockades of regaining rune points. A blessed breeding bull or ram is a lot more rune-point efficient, leaving herders with more reserves for protecting their herds.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It seems that the idea is approximately one hide per such family, or the sample clan numbers stop making sense. A longhouse then needs multiple hides attached to it.

five hides per small hex in my scheme above, or 20 hides for Esrolian density farming. That's 10 people per household, or 6 adults putting in their contribution to the household earnings. Which then breaks down to 10-15 lunars per adult on a hide per year as surplus divided up in taxes etc.? And still a character takes out 60-80 lunars out of their household's discretionary spending, paying tithes etc. and incurring a 20% penalty on the household income for a season of missed participation.

To me, some of these numbers need to start making sense. The only way this can work is that basic feeding of the household members is already included in the deducted cost, which also accounts for the survival of destitute standard of living individuals.

29 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

By the way, does anyone have an idea how cottars get their fields plowed, given that by definition they don’t have a plow team. Borrow one (this means that there has to be excess plow teams available for it)? Work the fields it by hand (doable, but I doubt you can manage a full hide that way)?

Tenant farmers are expected to use the equipment belonging to the Thane household but assigned to the rental stead, and same with the oxen. The Report on the Orlanthi mentions the weirdness of half-carls with half a plow team or the plow in the possession (rather than loan) of those folk (with three halves making a whole, but whatever).

In Greg's Harmast novel "patreon" project "Ten Woman Well Loved" the protagonist cottar farms a plot of cabbages rather than grain while working on the communal (clan or tribal temple) fields as well (when not employed for the special service of rain-making by having sex in the fields with an earth cultist who has an attachment to that land). The cottage seems to have sat right on the cabbage plot, as his marital activities kept the cabbages well watered throughout Palangio's and Lokamayadon's drought.

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Which then breaks down to 10-15 lunars per adult on a hide per year as surplus divided up in taxes etc.? And still a character takes out 60-80 lunars out of their household's discretionary spending, paying tithes etc. and incurring a 20% penalty on the household income for a season of missed participation.

To me, some of these numbers need to start making sense.

Agree, this part just doesn't work, even with the assumption that it's really cost per family instead of per person.

I think all of this comes from importing Pendragon systems a bit too wholesale? (Much the same way it works fine in Pendragon to find out during winter that you had a child born this year, but less so that it turns out in retrospect that your RQ PC was pregnant and bore a child this year.)

It might be worth checking how Harnmaster does this? I know there's a whole book for it.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Malin]

And some of us (me) are a lot more interested in agricultural policies than a small segment basically meant to provide random income to an adventurer and make them invest in their community was ever intended to provide.... 🤡

We probably can't take these rules and have them apply to the average farmer/household, a player character will always be a special case.

But yeah, I have taken to rolling harvest results during earth season, I need to know then whether there was a famine or not so I can plan the winter accordingly. The sacred time approximation is handy, but not really workable for characters really invested in the day to day life of their community.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Malin

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Malin said:

But yeah, I have taken to rolling harvest results during earth season, I need to know then whether there was a famine or not so I can plan the winter accordingly. The sacred time approximation is handy, but not really workable for characters really invested in the day to day life of their community.

A Jonstown publication digging into this would be fantastic, but I'm not sure it's even allowed (as it would by definition be a lot about rules). 

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

A Jonstown publication digging into this would be fantastic, but I'm not sure it's even allowed (as it would by definition be a lot about rules). 

Add an agricultural heroquest, and/or frame this as a Questworlds resource managing adventure with suggestions how to carry things over to RuneQuest, and you'd be fine.

Both Jeff and Greg have run convention HeroQuest adventures with community resources as the only abilities which then were pitted against regular and special upcoming challenges.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Joerg

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

A Jonstown publication digging into this would be fantastic, but I'm not sure it's even allowed (as it would by definition be a lot about rules). 

Write a scenario or campaign that uses those new rules, and you should be fine. New rules presented without any immediately playable material aren’t OK. (And, needless to say, copying Harnmaster text is verboten). Look at e.g. Company of the Dragon or Caravanserai for examples. (We tried to explain this in the Jonstown Compendium FAQ, but some people don’t know about that):

Quote

Q: What’s the best way to present new or expanded rules for your tabletop games in a Jonstown Compendium title?

A: The Jonstown Compendium isn’t meant for new rules systems and subsystems that aren’t thematically linked to playable content. That means that if you write a scenario or campaign and include some expanded rules (e.g. a rollicking Wolf Pirate adventure including ship/crew management and naval combat rules; a clan-based Sartar campaign including trading or clan resource management rules; a scenario set in Prax with detailed rules for wilderness survival), that’d be absolutely fine. Six Seasons in Sartar has original ideas for handling NPC stats, battle resolution and a clan character sheet, and they’re all integrated with the campaign.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Nick Brooke
Added FAQ link and the relevant Q&A.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

(Glorantha appears to have no modern style itinerant farm laborers, so the farmhands have to be provided for somehow and are members of the clan, meaning they have more rights in practice than your itinerant laborer even though they cannot vote. 

I think this is the theory - you should be in a clan, after all, andthe clan should hand out the land (for tenants if nothing else) - but that it can get upended by social turmoil. That clan the Lunars dissolved and grabbed the land from, those people still need to go somewhere and make a living. Showing up as itinerant agricultural labor might be one such solution, and could create interesting conflicts when some clan noble feels he doesn't need cottars for a piece of land but can run it on unlanded labor.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

With full magical support, a plow driven by a Barntar godtalker is bound to approach the efficiency of a small modern tractor on hard terrain.

In my campaign, there was urgent need to break new land, and the clan chief enlisted a freelance "sellplow", a hyper-competent but seriously anti-social Barntarite who arrived with his magical plow over his shoulder (!) and plowed non-stop for a season using Barntar magic and his heroic "plow trance" ability that required that he never stop until done.

"I need a steady supply of fresh oxen, all the beer I can drink and food I can eat, and someone to light the path at night." After that, he plowed straight through tree stumps, rocks, and so on to break in the fields.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:36 PM, Joerg said:

Still, quadrupling the population for Esrolian conditions will be very hard unless there is less land left fallow over there.

Given the earth/crop magic, why would you need much fallow land to be left?? I'd presume they'd try to use up as much of the land as possible (cos those grain goddesses aren't wild plant goddesses).

Even if the land was all used up (i.e., needing to be left fallow on this non-magical ball), that Bless Crops would basically replace all the nutrients.

[Malin]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

that Bless Crops would basically replace all the nutrients.

Nah they actually have a special spell for that, Fertilize. Cheap and useful, so no need for fallow fields!

Edited September 29, 2023 by Malin

[Akhôrahil]

It also makes math sense that half is fallow - if a hide is the amount of land you can plow in a season, and you can plow an acre in a day, then you can’t plow 80-100 acres in a season. But you can plow 40-50 acres.

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:44 AM, Malin said:

Nah they actually have a special spell for that, Fertilize. Cheap and useful, so no need for fallow fields!

yeah, I know... I'm curious about that. Why have both? (other than the rare instance of the land being blasted or something)

(also, Ernalda doesn't actually get Fertilize, although one would presume she's got access to it - or it's accidentally been left out of the book).

It's as cheap (but less useful) as Bless Crops (unless there is that rare instance).

[Malin]

31 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why have both?

Well, Fertilize doesn't tie up any rune points for the season, so it might be more worth it for farmers on alright land with good skills.

And we're not sure of the exact details of what Bless Crops does (apart from providing a bonus). Or what Fertilize does, other than restoring fertility to the land. Maybe Fertilize is mostly used when you don't have ready access to fertilizers from animals, or when yields are starting to drop.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Malin

[Shiningbrow]

13 minutes ago, Malin said:

Well, Fertilize doesn't tie up any rune points for the season, so it might be more worth it for farmers on alright land with good skills.

Good catch!!

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Malin said:

Well, Fertilize doesn't tie up any rune points for the season, so it might be more worth it for farmers on alright land with good skills.

And we're not sure of the exact details of what Bless Crops does (apart from providing a bonus). Or what Fertilize does, other than restoring fertility to the land. Maybe Fertilize is mostly used when you don't have ready access to fertilizers from animals, or when yields are starting to drop.

Fertilize is only available to Caladra & Aurelion initiates or Asrelia & Ernalda as associate cults, so this is only going to be available in Caladraland or close by.

Edited October 1, 2023 by David Scott

[Malin]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

so this is only going to be available in Caladraland or close by.

That's actually an interesting point. Is Fertilize (and similar spells) available to Ernalda worshippers everywhere? Or do the associated cults vary depending on where they are? I have always seen the associated cults as a bear "universal" thing, but maybe I am wrong? Maybe Ernalda in Sun County has a different availability of rune spells than Ernalda in Esrolia or Ernalda in Tarsh? How does other people treat this?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Malin

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, Malin said:

That's actually an interesting point. Is Fertilize (and similar spells) available to Ernalda worshippers everywhere? Or do the associated cults vary depending on where they are? I have always seen the associated cults as a bear "universal" thing, but maybe I am wrong?

Caladra & Aurelia are very specific to Caladraland. Likewise Kero Fin and Choralinthor. Hyalor is Grazelanders and parts of Peloria. Three Bean Circus wander the Plains of Prax. Other associate cults are not so restricted. As it also says, all of the associate cults are universally recognised as Great Temples - so head there for a full selection. The only other restrictions are the husband-protectors which will be limited to their respective regions except as noted, Esrolia (apart from Pamalt).

 

15 minutes ago, Malin said:

Maybe Ernalda in Sun County has a different availability of rune spells than Ernalda in Esrolia or Ernalda in Tarsh? How does other people treat this?

Sun County in Prax has Yelmalio as Husband Protector, although I'd allow Flamal too. The Earth temple in Sun County is a major temple so will have a single associate cult (RQG 284), which I'd make Barntar. Don't forget the Great Temple of the Paps is close by, so everything is available there.

That's how I run associate cults in my game (by the size of temple).

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Malin said:

That's actually an interesting point. Is Fertilize (and similar spells) available to Ernalda worshippers everywhere? Or do the associated cults vary depending on where they are?

In my opinion, some associate deities are local in nature and some are widespread with Shrines everywhere. Caladra & Aurelion feels local to me.

If you have a shrine to the associate cult in your Temple then the spell is available to you. However, how many Ernalda Temples would want, or need, a shrine to Caladra & Aurelion in their temple? Shrines to Volcano Deities could well attract volcanoes, after all.

I would expect a Caladra & Aurelion shrine in a Lodril Temple, so maybe having Lodril as a Husband Protector might mean the Lodril Shrine also has a Caladra & Aurelion Shrine.

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:11 PM, Malin said:

Maybe Ernalda in Sun County has a different availability of rune spells than Ernalda in Esrolia or Ernalda in Tarsh? How does other people treat this?

Yes, clearly, and in two different ways. First, even though all Associated cults are associated, if you don't have access to a shrine to that associated cult (and you're not likely to find C&A outside Caladraland), you're not going to learn the spell. Second, outside of Esrolia, only some subset of the Husband-Protectors are acknowledged (and even there, they unsurprisingly don't acknowledge Pamalt) - if your local Ernalda cult doesn't acknowledge some god as a husband-protector, you're not going to receive any spells from that god.

Now, if some character (probably a PC, we know what they're like) decides to trek all across Glorantha in order to collect as many associated cults and husband protectors as possible, the GM is going to have to make a call (their local cult might not be amused, for instance - the cult Ernalda of Sun County is likely to take a dim view of you learning Create Shadow) - but in principle this seems doable?

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:12 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is the theory - you should be in a clan, after all, andthe clan should hand out the land (for tenants if nothing else) - but that it can get upended by social turmoil. That clan the Lunars dissolved and grabbed the land from, those people still need to go somewhere and make a living. Showing up as itinerant agricultural labor might be one such solution, and could create interesting conflicts when some clan noble feels he doesn't need cottars for a piece of land but can run it on unlanded labor.

So someone can adapt The Grapes of Wrath to Sartar late in the Lunar occupation?  / Remember, that book has a depressing ending, so a heroic rewrite. or  follow-on story,  will be in order for MGF.

In a way [spoiler]  that situation is what Six Seasons series portrays.  But as I recall. the women and children of the broken clan go to their relatives in other clans.  Of course this fuels the rebellion, the men either leave Sartar or become guerrillas.  Great adventure fuel.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
spoiler

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So someone can adapt The Grapes of Wrath to Sartar late in the Lunar occupation?  / Remember, that book has a depressing ending, so a heroic rewrite. or  follow-on story,  will be in order for MGF.

In a way [spoiler]  that situation is what Six Seasons series portrays.  But as I recall. the women and children of the broken clan go to their relatives in other clans.  Of course this fuels the rebellion, the men either leave Sartar or become guerrillas.  Great adventure fuel.

The status of the children would be tricky - they would have been born to their home clan, and even if the non-local parents revert to their clans of origin, these children would remain in-laws to those clans unless adopted. And while that adoption is going on, there could also be a (lesser status) marriage of the other parent.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 10/1/2023 at 4:03 AM, David Scott said:

Fertilize is only available to Caladra & Aurelion initiates or Asrelia & Ernalda as associate cults, so this is only going to be available in Caladraland or close by.

Which seems to me to reflect the well known Real World fertility of volcanic soils. 

So I don't know why Lodril doesn't have Fertilize.  Or maybe he does and we will find out when the Pelorian book comes out.