Grimoire

[Erol of Backford]

So reading an article by Hervé Carteau titled Western Wizardry (Rule 1 Issue 04 p.13) I find that each Grimoire is an independent skill learned as such. Be it a page out of the Abiding Book, a bronze skull, etc. yes non canon but was perplexed by the lead grimoire in the Return to Apple Lane scenario...

GtG p.51 & 203 says Loskalmi Man-of-All (right): study magical grimoires…are a mystical order of warrior monks who take vows to serve and defend the community, study magical grimoires…

Several questions:

Does Glorantha have something like the Grand Grimoire, “a very powerful and ancient magical text that is said to contain forbidden knowledge and dark secrets” or is it basically the Abiding book in Glorantha. Was thinking there might be something like the Necronomicon or an evil God Learner’s book of sorts?

Maybe the library in the Barren Island scenario of TotRM 10 has some God Learner grimoire scraps on its shelves?

The Book of the Faceless King seems to be a nice Dwarven grimoire and also it seems the Pavis cult possessed a sorcery grimoire that contained a ritual to allow half-elves and also half-Mostali. I thought a Dryad and a human could make a half-elf without special magics but maybe not?

Also read somewhere that a five-leaf grimoire is an extremely rare magical object, whose fifth leaf represents a devil. Also known as a Grimoire of Despair: a five-leaf grimoire is created when a mage chosen by a four-leaf grimoire is filled with so much hate and despair that the book is twisted by his own dark emotions. Do we have something like this in Glorantha and if so, what is it? Has anyone gamed seeking and destroying something like this, an evil grimoire? Would a Trickster eating an evil grimoire destroy it? What about throwing it into the void?

What would your ability need to be in read/write languages to actually pen or inscribe a grimoire?

Along the same lines, in the RQ3 system as long as you had a positive magic modifier you could learn sorcery if you had a teacher. How long would it take for a character to learn to cast a sorcery spell? Is this described anywhere yet in the current game system?

Lastly, in the Red Book of Magic it says that certain spirit magic may be offered to initiates as part of ceremonies on cult holy days, otherwise, learning a new spell takes one week of work. If the spell is offered, does it take no time to learn or is it just part of a ceremony or sorts that takes a few hours following the smoking of a pipe or something similar?

Lastly for sorcery (residual RQ3) how long would it take for a PC to study and learn the Intensity skill if they had a teacher and a positive magic modifier? For spirit magic its POW x5 for casting…

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does Glorantha have something like the Grand Grimoire, “a very powerful and ancient magical text that is said to contain forbidden knowledge and dark secrets” or is it basically the Abiding book in Glorantha. Was thinking there might be something like the Necronomicon or an evil God Learner’s book of sorts?

The ultimate of course is Zzabur's Blue Book. But you'd have to pry it out of Zzabur's hands (although it is said the original is lost beneath the Neliomi Sea and only fragments of that have been found). There's also the Red Book and the Brown Book - the new Mythology book notes that the latter contains some of the most powerful spells ever known.

14 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would a Trickster eating an evil grimoire destroy it?

Why would it? Most likely some parts end up in the Otherworld and some transformed into something else in this world.

15 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Lastly, in the Red Book of Magic it says that certain spirit magic may be offered to initiates as part of ceremonies on cult holy days, otherwise, learning a new spell takes one week of work. If the spell is offered, does it take no time to learn or is it just part of a ceremony or sorts that takes a few hours following the smoking of a pipe or something similar?

While it may be offered, I still go with the one week to learn.

 

[Erol of Backford]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Zzabur's Blue Book

GtG says its in Sog City, is housed in the vast fireproof Library of the Ivory Tower.

Makes me recall the old movie Name of the Rose.

I suppose that's another great scenario possibility in any of the Sartar, Heortland or even the Nochet Libraries?

Have any of the great libraries burned in recent history? IIRC the Nochet library was sacked and plundered but it didn't burn?

What are the chances to find lost or hidden grimoires in the deep basement stacks of the forbidden section of the Nochet Library?

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

GtG says its in Sog City, is housed in the vast fireproof Library of the Ivory Tower.

There's lots of rumors around. Of course, if it is in Sog City, it's obviously in the University Library within the Citadel of Brass. You could apply to the Vice-chancellor, Pelinorius Staarki for permission to enter, but the price may be steep.

25 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I suppose that's another great scenario possibility in any of the Sartar, Heortland or even the Nochet Libraries?

Dangerous fragments only. Carefully stored away in the Restricted Sections. If in Nochet, though, you'd have to determine which faction has it to figure out which Restricted Section to even begin looking in. And like any of the Torvald Fragments, it likely requires a special machine to help decode it.

27 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Have any of the great libraries burned in recent history?

No.

27 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

IIRC the Nochet library was sacked and plundered but it didn't burn?

False rumor - Greymane's Great Raid never reached Nochet and there was no danger to the temple.

28 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

What are the chances to find lost or hidden grimoires in the deep basement stacks of the forbidden section of the Nochet Library?

1 in 1000? Sounds about right. Figure you'll need a critical Library Use roll to find the right section of the stacks, and then a critical Search roll to stumble upon something lost or hidden.  

[Erol of Backford]

9 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1 in 1000? Sounds about right. Figure you'll need a critical Library Use roll to find the right section of the stacks, and then a critical Search roll to stumble upon something lost or hidden.  

It's like bringing the lost spirit of a Gold Wheel Dancer back to its golden body... I like it. If only you had an idea where to look in the book stacks!

Curious with 20M volumes at Harvard, was surprised to see online only 8M at Cambridge... how many scrolls, manuscripts and, I am sure a much lesser number of actual books might be at Nochet Library?

Messing around with numbers there are about 19 miles of book shelf to hold 1M books. (read about the main harvard library building having 57 miles of shelf and could hold about 3M books) Assuming older Gloranthian books are much larger say only about half that number or less could be shelved per mile? Guessing 40 miles of shelf for 1M books, say 25,000 older books per mile. We'd need 16 miles of shelf space to house that that lore. 6.4 miles for 400k tomes... 33,792' of shelf.

I am guessing that each wing of the Nochet Library is about 80-100' in length, assume the main center hall is about 110' of wall space on 5 sides less 15-20' for doorways.

Based on the Jonstown Library in the Sartar Companion, the main hall is 90' of wall space and 16 shelves high rather than 10. Add the other 2 wings for dangerous items and overflow we get about 3,690LF of shelf space above ground. Unless we are using magic to store books and documents or they are on the other side somehow?

Knowing that Asrelia doesn't have spells that work like a bag of holding or Felix's bag...how are they compressing the shelf space or are the basement stacks actually on the other side?

Either way we'll need a few basements to get 400,000 tomes in here. If the basements are full floor plates with floors 12-15' high we'd get about 1500LF of shelf per wing with the center adding enough to get you to 5,000LF per floor. You'd need 6 basements at say 15' per floor. The library's basements would be 90' below grade. Some creepy stuff could go on down there and there must be spaces like the library in the book Name of the Wind... need a good bit of magic to prevent fires and or keep humidity manageable. Continual light spells

Nochet Queen of Cities p.35: The scribes have accumulated and carefully preserved hundreds of thousands of volumes...

Seems like between 400,000- 700,000 books/scrolls/manuscripts were at the Great Library of Alexandria... so the Nochet Library is likely equivalent to that of Alexandria?

How many hidden grimoires or pieces of them would be in 400k documents?

Of course this is all different if somehow the sublevels are square but that doesn't seem to go with Lhankor Mhy?

Also the MOB scenario Getting of Wisdom makes more sense if there are 5-6 subbasments... lots of strange things could happen down there. Its even possible that a doorway the the actual Lhankor Mhy library is hidden down there in plain sight?

  

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So reading an article by Hervé Carteau titled Western Wizardry (Rule 1 Issue 04 p.13) I find that each Grimoire is an independent skill learned as such. Be it a page out of the Abiding Book, a bronze skull, etc. yes non canon but was perplexed by the lead grimoire in the Return to Apple Lane scenario...

The one skill is a HQ2 rule, RQ treats each spell as an independent skill.

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What would your ability need to be in read/write languages to actually pen or inscribe a grimoire?

100% - unless you want to chance mistakes.

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Along the same lines, in the RQ3 system as long as you had a positive magic modifier you could learn sorcery if you had a teacher. How long would it take for a character to learn to cast a sorcery spell? Is this described anywhere yet in the current game system?

Yes

• It takes a season to master a Rune or Technique (if successful). How many you can learn in total is a function of INT. Some techniques let you use others unmastered.
• Spells are skills. You need to train or research to 1%, to get the spell. So that's a season. As usual, your magic bonus is not added until you reach at least 1%.
• No sorcerer will have a negative magic bonus as INT 13 is the minimum required to master Runes or Techniques, and if they've a POW of less than 8, they should consider another occupation.
• Overall, if you are training a spell a single spell per season with a teacher you can reach 10% (2% x5) or if you are rolling 0-25% (D6-1 x 5), both plus your magic bonus.

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Lastly, in the Red Book of Magic it says that certain spirit magic may be offered to initiates as part of ceremonies on cult holy days, otherwise, learning a new spell takes one week of work. If the spell is offered, does it take no time to learn or is it just part of a ceremony or sorts that takes a few hours following the smoking of a pipe or something similar?

Part of the ceremony, which is a day long.

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Lastly for sorcery (residual RQ3) how long would it take for a PC to study and learn the Intensity skill if they had a teacher and a positive magic modifier? For spirit magic its POW x5 for casting…

In RQG, Intensity is not a skill, none of the manipulations are, there is only the spell skill.

Edited October 23, 2023 by David Scott

[Joerg]

57 minutes ago, David Scott said:

12 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What would your ability need to be in read/write languages to actually pen or inscribe a grimoire?

100% - unless you want to chance mistakes.

95% is the best chance at success you are going to get regardless of your skill.

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

95% is the best chance at success you are going to get regardless of your skill.

Sure, but you also want to decrease fumbles and increase crits.

[Joerg]

A 95% skill has the minimum 1% chance of a fumble at a roll (1)00. More crits are nice to have, but how does a crit in read/write manifest when inscribing a spell collection? And if you really need those crits, that's where Mental Acuity and other supporting magics may come in.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am guessing that each wing of the Nochet Library is about 80-100' in length, assume the main center hall is about 110' of wall space on 5 sides less 15-20' for doorways.

The wings are about twice that length. But you've got to account for the priest's chambers, the dormitories, the scriptorium, reading rooms, etc.

And Nochet has different factions who've staked out different sections of the ancient building. 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

95% is the best chance at success you are going to get regardless of your skill.

... with the concomitant presumption that in a large collection (such as Nochet) 1 in 20 will have subtle errors ...

[Joerg]

I would expect rather 95% of all grimoires to have subtle errors. Known errors to those in the know, but making the spells useless or hideously overpriced if cast as written.

(Which might be a good summary about the spells in the core rules...)

[scott-martin]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

  

Who would we be if we didn't ponder the most intricate minutia of the setting? IMG Nochet stores rolls horn out (the horn caps are labeled or inscribed) so the key metric is volume and not linear miles. If a typical Greek roll was about 1 inch diameter, you can cram a theoretical maximum of 2750 documents per linear foot, assuming 15-foot ceilings and ladders. Jonstown was designed for SAN so figure those 15-16 intervening tiers might displace 250 rolls from each foot. In this model, they might end up with a million documents every 400 feet. 

Granted a lot of this text is probably bureaucratic records . . . tax rolls, schedules, construction plans, contracts, inventories, catalogs, catalogs of catalogs, want lists, correspondence about want lists . . . but a truly inspired magician with something to hide will encode sorcerous skill rolls in the most unexpected places. Depends on why the sorcerer chooses to write instead of instructing apprentices personally. Obviously mortality and the local talent pool are factors but something like whimsy can play a role, thinking of how texts like Impossible Places and the Book of Dale communicate the deepest arcana in superficially bizarre formats. Write for the reader you want.

In terms of other questions, when a dryad and a human love each other very much you can get half an elf. There are probably grimoires on the subject, false and true ones. Ditto all manner of chimerical hybrids, I'm sure it was a whole genre and even today occasional Stitcher Manuals or ZOO books show up in private collections, let alone what the Seshnelan monster manual community had. There are multiple competing grand grimoires but for your purposes check out the Book of Drastic Resolutions and the Book of Secrets, which might share a common source or sources. Along with this, while no great libraries have burned lately, the devastation of Slontos and the southern universities undoubtedly took a lot of titles off the table so to speak, and the purge of heterodox sorcery in the West is probably feeding a few bonfires abroad while closer to home texts like the official MOLAD rulebook just vanished in the death of the City of Wonders. Other evil books have been reported and even destroyed. You don't need to feed them to a trickster and sacrificing them to a chaos void is probably a bad idea. In theory all you need to get rid of one is throw it in the cabin fireplace until it stops screaming.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Along with this, while no great libraries have burned lately, the devastation of Slontos and the southern universities undoubtedly took a lot of titles off the table so to speak, and the purge of heterodox sorcery in the West is probably feeding a few bonfires abroad while closer to home texts like the official MOLAD rulebook just vanished in the death of the City of Wonders.

Of course, not a bonfire, but the loss of the Final Information Library when the City of Wonders disappeared from the world is a mighty cataclysm for all LM sages. Thankfully the Purple Sages brought many volumes from there to Nochet (and a few other sites like Jelenkev) between 1616 and 1624, but they've had to shoehorn these works into all sorts of nooks and crannies in the Nochet library as the other factions certainly didn't want to lose desired shelf space (unless they were able to claim 'management' of said works).

We must not ignore, of course, the damage done to works in the Great Destruction of 1050 - after all the subsequent tidal waves washed over Nochet too and many documents were lost or buried in mud in what was then the temple basements. The subsequent Adjustment Wars also took there toll, and may have included discrete (or not so discrete) burnings of documents that proved or disproved certain claims. These have left important gaps in the records.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Who would we be if we didn't ponder the most intricate minutia of the setting? IMG Nochet stores rolls horn out (the horn caps are labeled or inscribed) so the key metric is volume and not linear miles. If a typical Greek roll was about 1 inch diameter, you can cram a theoretical maximum of 2750 documents per linear foot, assuming 15-foot ceilings and ladders. Jonstown was designed for SAN so figure those 15-16 intervening tiers might displace 250 rolls from each foot. In this model, they might end up with a million documents every 400 feet. 

Clearly this has been thought of at least in Nochet given the volume of records produced. What's been pushed off and buried in the vaults of course are not these nice scrolls, but the old clay tablets with their intricate and often unintelligible writings (including of course accidental deposits of students' works on correct grammar, spelling, and other lessons). 

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Granted a lot of this text is probably bureaucratic records . . . tax rolls, schedules, construction plans, contracts, inventories, catalogs, catalogs of catalogs, want lists, correspondence about want lists .

The volume of these works in Nochet is staggering. The Charterists particularly are focused on these minutiae which pre-date the Dawn. But at the same time it is these works that hold the clues for intense power struggles between the Enfranchised Houses over what privilege for what plot of land or which building or what guild or temple rights, duties, and obligations were provided and approved by which Queen or priestess. The lineages of the Houses is a vast array of text in and of itself.

 

[Erol of Backford]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The wings are about twice that length. But you've got to account for the priest's chambers, the dormitories, the scriptorium, reading rooms, etc.

And Nochet has different factions who've staked out different sections of the ancient building. 

I was basing the layout on the Jonstown facility planning model.

The only spaces on above ground counted as shelf space were those designated. None of the priest's chambers, the dormitories, the scriptorium, reading rooms, etc were considered "stacks" which is where 98% of the tomes would reside normally or so I am guessing. Even if you added 5% of the stack/shelf space to the total you'd still need 5 basements, which again is a good thing as it makes the stacks into a dark and dangerous place as MOB scenario shows. Another Glorantian rabbit hole which I have grown to love over the years.

Still waiting for the hard cover book to come out Sir!

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

15-foot ceilings and ladders

I was assume something similar but not the rolled scrolls and what not. Not sure I have even touched something even replicating ancient scrolls besides some reprints of some of those which would hang in a tokonoma of a semi traditional Japanese home or temple.

I think that the typical large library for Lhankor Mhy would be the same floor plan or nearly so. Perhaps the one in Nochet has longer sides, say 125 or 150' this would reduce the number of basements by 1 or even 2 but you'd still have 3 or even 4 basement stack levels... muhahaha!

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

even today occasional Stitcher Manuals or ZOO books show up in private collections

Yes even in real world books and movies, the original Blade Runner had test replicants as toy-companions, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 had the same as did one of the Toy Story Movies... who doesn't have a copy of the Stitcher Manual!?

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

In theory all you need to get rid of one is throw it in the cabin fireplace until it stops screaming.

This is very very funny to me! It's like the book of monsters which will bite your hand or eat your shoe.

[jajagappa]

47 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I think that the typical large library for Lhankor Mhy would be the same floor plan or nearly so. Perhaps the one in Nochet has longer sides, say 125 or 150' this would reduce the number of basements by 1 or even 2 but you'd still have 3 or even 4 basement stack levels... muhahaha!

The reason the Nochet one won't is factions. Unlike the Jonstown Library for instance which is run by the Grey Sages, the Nochet temple has SIX rival factions (of which the Grey Sages are only one) that have developed over 1500+ years. Each faction has desires for priestly quarters, dormitories, scriptoriums, stacks, etc. and they compete viciously against each other (and have been known to disintegrate into the famous Scholarly Riots at multiple points in history). Now while some of the problem of housing initiates has been resolved by pushing them out into tenements and buildings in the adjacent Inkhand neighborhood, it does mean that the temple does not adhere nicely to the Jonstown floor layout.

(While I've done a prior layout plan for the temple and its factions, it is not yet to my liking. On my list of things to get to for Nochet.)

Edited October 23, 2023 by jajagappa

[Erol of Backford]

41 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

(While I've done a prior layout plan for the temple and its factions, it is not yet to my liking. On my list of things to get to for Nochet.)

Off the top of my head you'd have some catacombs thrown in, who knows, ghouls, vampires or of course our good friends Thanatar worshipers. I suppose the MOD scenario could easily have one of Drueke's friends living in a secluded part of said catacomb with there own restricted section, maybe even some copies of Drueke's Scrolls... it looks like there is some sort of tunnel leaving the Lhankor Mhy temple basement is it known? Of course there are others we don't know about... (Delaina’s Trace) I see the sewer and aqueduct but what is the tunnel looking thing just above U51 at red arrow... water running below with of course rats or rubble runners? Maybe there is a leader of rats a broo of sorts who heads the sewer rats. They access the library basement to find and steal grimoires, chew books, etc?

Where is the EWF section in the Nochet Library?

 

[Erol of Backford]

This grimoire necklace was noted to have last been seen on sublevel 3 of the Nochet Library, must have slipped off someone's neck, imported from Kralorela.

Atyar the Horned Skull, its powers are not known, its tarnished black silver...

Edited October 24, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

what is the tunnel looking thing just above U51 at red arrow...

That is entry U51, Delaina's Trace. 🙂 Now, whether that actually goes where it appears to go is another question as noted in the entry.

43 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where is the EWF section in the Nochet Library?

Sections - plural. 

If you go to p.35-36 in the Nochet book:

The Grey Sages. They have ties with most temples across Dragon Pass and Prax and are known for their grey robes. Many travel regularly as they go out to gather the lore and legends of the Elder Races and many lands, including dangerous texts from the God Learners and Empire of Wyrms Friends.

The Green Sages. The smallest school was founded with Belintar's patronage after the Dragonewts’ Dream. They wear green robes or sashes and largely gather information about the dragons...

And I expect also with The Purple Sages as Belintar urged them to collect everything. Belintar founded this school in the City of Wonders. With his disappearance the school migrated en masse to Nochet and brought many of the records from the Final Information Library with them.

So you'll most likely approach one of those schools within the temple. Then they'll need to investigate where such records are likely to have been kept. And hope those records are still there. On the plus side, if this is 1624+, there is a fair chance that Argrath and his accomplices had at least the Grey Sages pull together some of their information (for very hefty fees) on the EWF so some of it may be quite accessible at the moment. (If you're back in the early 1600s though that would not be the case, nor would the documents held by the Purple Sages. However, since before Belintar's demise the Purple Sages were busy collecting or copying documents to bring to the Final Information Library, some of those might have been pulled out from the Grey Sages collections.)

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

if this is 1624+

So it 1600-1605, if the PC is a Lhankor Mhy initiate but not affiliated with any faction, they should be able to go in and do some snooping no? What needs to happen for them to do their own research, donate funds for time they intend to spend in the library?

Also anyone have an idea as to what grimoires would the Monks of the Cryptic Library have confiscated from the western saintly orders and independent schools?

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

including dangerous texts from the God Learners and Empire of Wyrms Friends

So we will assume its in the "restricted section" unless taken out and hidden in the stacks somewhere for future quick access....
 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:45 AM, jajagappa said:

Zzabur's Blue Book

Anyone else thinks the full sorcery system should be published as The Blue Book of Magic? 🙂

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So it 1600-1605, if the PC is a Lhankor Mhy initiate but not affiliated with any faction, they should be able to go in and do some snooping no?

Seriously??? You're talking about the most "political" knowledge temple in a city and country built on politics. Why would they let you in to do anything but peruse the most general and common information? 

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What needs to happen for them to do their own research, donate funds for time they intend to spend in the library?

Donations of money, scrolls, and time (i.e. teaching youngsters the basics of reading and lore). AND, you'd be wise to marry into a politically connected House who might steer you into one of the schools and help smooth the way.

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So we will assume its in the "restricted section"

One of them, and you'll need to be aligned with that school to get access.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Seriously??? You're talking about the most "political" knowledge temple in a city and country built on politics. Why would they let you in to do anything but peruse the most general and common information?

Quote

He even holds the sacred Stone Scrolls, forged in the Underworld to hide the secrets of the Compromise from immature souls. Even so his knowledge is not complete, and he and his cult ever thirst for more. — WoD: Lhankor Mhy

You are probably right. LM doesn’t seem like an organisation geared up to generate and circulate knowledge. It is more like a cult of knowledge misers: determined to crash the information economy by taking all the capital out of circulation. — If you want to collect it all, make sure there isn’t too much to collect. If you want to grow knowledge, set it free. — A cult as pernicious, in its low-key way, as Thanatar. All the back-biting and sly manoeuvring of academia — without any of the commitment to research and exchange.

I wonder which runic banner true Gloranthan intellectuals — let’s park the Nysaloreans and Godlearners for a moment — would march under. One of these?

• 
   
• 
   
• 

Who knows?

Edited October 24, 2023 by mfbrandi
punctuation

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Who knows?

Elasa, the Light of Knowledge.  (And what do you know - it also happens to be that of Yelmalio, who we know upheld the Light through the Darkness)