The Pavis Grand Plan

[Joerg]

Having walked in Cyrilius Harmonius's sandals, part of the Pavis cult was actively courting the Seven Mothers cult as another associate in the city array. Survival in the Rubble taught them to adopt whichever tools, foods and magics might help them to continue their existance, and possibly reinstate their former glory.

[Ian A. Thomson]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Is it cleared for release?

Your own speculations are, but not my responses to them :)

[Ian A. Thomson]

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think you could quite easily make something interesting about being pro-Lunar but anti-Lunar Empire, like wanting the local Lunars to get integrated into the Pavis Plan. It's hardly a stretch to decide that the Lunar Empire is an enemy of the Lunar Way, after all (as the White Moonies demonstrate).

That is already exactly my stance in the brief notes I have on such possibilities

But I stopped developing the notes as it is still another large article required, plus a lot of revisions and re-readings of old articles to make sure it all matches

Several days of work that i do not have time for - potentially maybe when everything else is done

[Ian A. Thomson]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Having walked in Cyrilius Harmonius's sandals, part of the Pavis cult was actively courting the Seven Mothers cult as another associate in the city array. Survival in the Rubble taught them to adopt whichever tools, foods and magics might help them to continue their existance, and possibly reinstate their former glory.

That makes sense for the canon and common ideas about Pavis. The background of my campaign (and part of the whole Grand Plan evolution) is that the Pavis Cult have a lot more resources being developed than are commonly known about, and thus are not needing to lean towards 'any port in a storm' as much. Plus there's the new specific ideas on how certain Lunars (including agents of the Seven Mothers) are supporting the semi-hidden Lunar agenda of taking over the Grand Plan and subverting it for their own benefits, to the detriment of the entire purpose of the plan.

[Nozbat]

I find it interesting that people want a certain direction or options in written scenarios (not just @Ian A. Thomson's massive opus magnum). There are two aspects to the creativity process that impact on such a notion.

Firstly, there is actually creating a storyline to be consistent, viable and fun for all the types of players we encounter at our games. I tend to write my own scenarios rather than relying on published ones, cannibalising some where I like the ideas but want to put my own stamp on it as @Baron said. When doing this I generally focus on maximum game fun (MGF) because I have very different players at the table, some are happy with the idea of roleplaying and getting into character, some prefer rolling dice as a mechanic, some play very different characters, others play the same type of character over and over. That's the nature of the people we play with, they're all different. The end narrative is what makes games memorable. It's what the players tell each other when the game is finished that matters most to me and them.

Going back to the point, the best scenarios flow. They move seamlessly to the end point. Forcing situations on players feels false and they see that. What's their motivation for doing something that they wouldn't actually do? I think that's where the consistency and viability come in. Even in sandbox games there is a stated end outcome, the routes to it may be varied, but in my view the end point is immutable and in order for the scenario to make sense, it has to be fixed. If you want the end point to be different, it changes all the preceding variables and requires a serious amount of work which would be impossible to do in such a grand campaign such as Pavis. 

Secondly, creating a scenario for publication is very different from doing your own scenario. In writing my own, I don’t have to have every detail written. Some I can fudge, some things I did not perceive as happening and others I just make up on the spot. If I’m good at this, the players never know. I just make a note in the margin of my notes and play goes on, hopefully seamlessly. If the scenario requires another route, I write it in between sessions but it always tends towards the same end point.

In a published scenario, the creator does not have that option. They can’t perceive every variable or probability of actions for different types of GMs, different players, styles of play and personal interest. Published scenarios require an immense amount of work that need to be detailed, Stat blocks, new skills, new spells, working out mechanics of actions using RAW, etc. It would be a never-ending process to include all options for different outcomes. 

As @Nick Brooke said above, get your quill, ink and vellum out (or your word processor) and start publishing your ideas. We are a community with lots of ideas and our Gloranthas do vary. @Ian A. Thomson is offering participation in the creation of OUR Glorantha and I think it is an opportunity for everyone to give something. 

I'm going with @Nick Brooke's hashtag #WeAreAllUs

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

That makes sense for the canon and common ideas about Pavis. The background of my campaign (and part of the whole Grand Plan evolution) is that the Pavis Cult have a lot more resources being developed than are commonly known about, and thus are not needing to lean towards 'any port in a storm' as much. Plus there's the new specific ideas on how certain Lunars (including agents of the Seven Mothers) are supporting the semi-hidden Lunar agenda of taking over the Grand Plan and subverting it for their own benefits, to the detriment of the entire purpose of the plan.

Is the entire priesthood informed about the great plan? And may a Red Marriage plot have been used as a ploy to give the Lunars a false impression of progress?

[soltakss]

I used some of Ian's ideas in my last Gloranthan Campaign, where the Adventurers became Earth People, then River Voices. They started off in New Pavis as member of a Firemakers Street Gang, which one Player kept calling the Twisted Firestarters, then they left New Pavis and rarely came back. They rescued Pavis, who was trapped in the Green Age, brought back Tada and Genert, brough waters back to the Wastes, combined all the Hidden Greens across Prax and the Wastes, brought fertility back to Prax and the Wastes, and did many other things.

In that campaign we assumed that Pavis settled where he did because there was an Oasis there, and the Adventurers went to the Oasis by accident and realised that it was like other Oasis settlements that they had visited, making them realise that the oases were scattered remnants of a single civilisation. Our version of the Pavis Plan was to recreate the Green Age in Pavis. To do that, the Adventurers found many of the lost spirits, or heroes, of Pavis, integrating them into the local pantheons. They brought Pavis back, which helped with the Plan. They brought Tada and Genert back, which helped invigorate the powers of Fertility. They even stopped the Red Goddess from marrying Pavis, even though they had steadfastly remained neutral to the Lunars. In the end, Mello Yello became the Golden Dragon and killed the Red Emperor, or rather made the Red Emperor Utumna event permanent and fatal, thus becoming the Emperor of Dara Happa. We left the Campaign there.

[Nozbat]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

We left the Campaign there.

I suspect that there very little left to do after all that?

[soltakss]

37 minutes ago, Nozbat said:

I suspect that there very little left to do after all that?

Oh there was, but the Players thought that nothing could top Mello Yello becoming the Dara Happan Emperor.

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Oh there was, but the Players thought that nothing could top Mello Yello becoming the Dara Happan Emperor.

Monkey Empire confirmed as restored.

[Ian A. Thomson]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Is the entire priesthood informed about the great plan?

Much of the great plan is still being rediscovered, and only a small group of individuals are privy to the majority of elements and how it fits together. Plus it can no longer be undertaken exactly as originally intended

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

And may a Red Marriage plot have been used as a ploy to give the Lunars a false impression of progress?

Not sure exactly what you mean. Basic idea sounds very legitimate. I chose the angle of the Pavis Cult leadership employing delaying tactics, while they were very concerned that they might not be able to stop it. In the passage of time Greg dropped the idea of the whole plan, but back then he was fine with this idea (Pavis cult inner circles delaying the wedding), so by and large I'm just sticking with the broad ideas we were working with

Edited January 21 by Ian A. Thomson

[Diadochoi]

As others have already said I think the grand plan is linked to the Green Age and the restoration of Genert's garden (Pavis was built where it is as there was an oasis here, a link back to the Green Age protected by Mani's clan, with the Dyflings having a direct link back to Grandfather Genert and the defence of the garden from the legions of Ragnaglar - The good the bad and the rowdy, page 70).

Uleria (the last of the celestial court) and Mostal are the key players in the plan, not the priests of Pavis. Uleria and Urtiam (= Mostal) were the parents of Darhudan = Daka Fel = Grandfather Mortal and the creators of the Man rune. By rewinding history to the green age, the Man rune can be made anew, the spike and the world machine are renewed and this time (with knowledge from the future) Uleria can ensure the celestial court does not spend all its time in endless debate (Guide to Glorantha), but instead prevents the chaos wars - even perhaps just by preventing the fall of her daughter Sesiene (one of the Tilntae) to fear and chaos (without her power of temptation chaos would never have become so powerful). Part of the plot requires Pavis / Uleria to invoke all three aspects of Uleria, with the Getenak Tradition (The good the bad and the rowdy page 71) and there sacred time tradition (page 77) having clear links to Uleria.

As this is far too simple there have to be some twists and complications. Perhaps:

1) "Back to the Future 2" subplot: As part of the plan to ensure chaos never has any chance to become as powerful second time round the Eye of Wakboth (which currently may lie under the Old Market Square of Pavis = the devils playground) must be destroyed in such a way that it never existed (lacking one eye would make Wakboth much less dangerous should things come to pass that Storm Bull must defeat him again). This has been tried once before by Bisjoe Boggle-Eater (The city that time forgot page 80-82), but the "second brigade of Flintnail Dwarfs" (from the future) messed up the time-travel timing and arrived after he was slain. This time round the PCs help get the timing right and this is the "more powerful chaos-cleansing expedition"(page 82). 

2) Both eyes of Wakboth lie under the Big Rubble. Looking at Simon Phipps map of the Big Rubble (https://www.soltakss.com/bigrubblemap1.html) there is clearly a face with the eyes being Blind King's Hill and Mani's Fort (and the nose being Ogre island). The artifact in the sacred cave of the Dyflings has neutralized the chaotic power of the second eye, now to just sort out the other.

3) The shape of Ogre island is clearly not a nose, but links strongly to an aspect of Uleria

4) We never know who Pavis parents are because he is actually one of the Tilntae (who are often the mothers/fathers of nations, The Earth Goddesses p129). Also read the description of the "man who walked with Pavis" (City on the edge of forever" p52-54, where the "spell of this eloquent half-elf" etc fits with my image of the powers of the Tilntae). As Pavis / Uleria need to invoke all three aspects of Uleria, we get into Oediupus territory. Even if it does not go this way Pavis could be an initiate of Uleria.

[JonathanQuaife]

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think you could quite easily make something interesting about being pro-Lunar but anti-Lunar Empire, like wanting the local Lunars to get integrated into the Pavis Plan. It's hardly a stretch to decide that the Lunar Empire is an enemy of the Lunar Way, after all (as the White Moonies demonstrate).

Absolutely. The presentation of the Lunar Empire (and indeed Gloranthan factionalism generally) tends to be somewhat monolithic. Against that, we know the Empire is riven by intrigue and Dart Wars between clans. When you begin to consider the ramifications of that, many options present themselves.

[Ian A. Thomson]

19 minutes ago, JonathanQuaife said:

Absolutely. The presentation of the Lunar Empire (and indeed Gloranthan factionalism generally) tends to be somewhat monolithic. Against that, we know the Empire is riven by intrigue and Dart Wars between clans. When you begin to consider the ramifications of that, many options present themselves.

Yes, this is the core of the ideas i've already considered. The only disagreement I've had so far is the use of the word 'easily'

Imagine how much time you think it takes me to get out these books, then times it by ten and you are probably still way-underestimating :)

There are definitely options and I will definitely consider writing them once the rest is done (a few more months to go)

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Imagine how much time you think it takes me to get out these books, then times it by ten and you are probably still way-underestimating 🙂

Write for the most common use-case, and let game masters who (say they) want to run deviant campaigns do the legwork themselves.#

My campaign Black Spear is explicitly written for pro-Colymar, pro-Argrath groups with Sartarite leadership, the sort of party Chaosium shows and tells you is the RuneQuest "default". If your current group has a Balazaring shaman, cannibal trollkin, Hrestoli nun and ninja flamingo keet while your campaign is set in Umathela, you probably won't get as much use out of it. (But your game sounds awesome!). Once you're that far off-piste, you're really not my audience any more.

Likewise, some people's apparent desire to run a pro-Lunar campaign set in Pavis is not Ian's problem. Everybody knows that the default party in a Pavis campaign is not made up of Lunar stooges, and Ian has always been very clear about his agenda. Six Seasons in Sartar doesn't have options for Haraborn deciding to side with the Lunars; Tarsh War doesn't explain how to play from the other side as Tarsh Exiles; that material would be useless for almost every group. (Ahem. "Nice though I'm sure it would be.")

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 1/21/2024 at 11:04 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Likewise, some people's apparent desire to run a pro-Lunar campaign set in Pavis is not Ian's problem. Everybody knows that the default party in a Pavis campaign is not made up of Lunar stooges, and Ian has always been very clear about his agenda. 

Good summary

Not sure if I said this before, but the idea of having an option for a faction of non-mainstream Lunars who side with the Old Pavics has always been at the back of my mind, and I think right at the start of writing the campaign for Tentacles Press 20 yrs ago I even made some notes about how it might work

I stopped when I realised that such people would have to betray the orders and agendas of their cult leaders in order to take that alternative allegiance, and couldn't see how that would work

It's probably a lot easier to write adaptation notes for the small group of specialist Lunars with the secret agenda of subverting the plan, who are operating in secret from most of the other Lunars, but being pro-Pavic myself, that wasn't something i wanted to apply myself too

Edited January 30 by Ian A. Thomson

[Nick Brooke]

Illumination, Ian. The secret anti-statist agenda of the White Moonies. Opening moves in a Dart War against the Eel-Ariarsh Clan. This stuff writes itself (which is why you don’t need to spend time writing it).