Sorcery Rules

[Sheelba]

I'm curious to know if there is anything newer than the messy "The Magic Book" which uses the sorcery rules of Intensity, Multispell, Range and Duration. I just bought the new BRP rules and I'm very disappointed to find they aren't there (I know, I should have written this post before buying). The Magic Book has references to tables which aren't in the book and could do with a re-write. The newer RQG  sorcery rules (which I also own) are simpler and appear tweaked to make them less attractive to PC's, at least to my mind. I think this is appropriate for the setting. However, I bought BRP because I had expected sorcery rules which are similar to the RQ3 rules, which are is my favourite magic system. Having various editions of CoC and RQG I simply wouldn't have bothered spending the money for BRP if I had known it was going to have the magic system it has. I can make do with The Magic Book rules but I am hoping there is a product which feels more finished out there. I'm not willing to spend more money, on say, the Advanced Sorcery book, without knowing what I am buying, hence this post.

I know some people found the whole RQ3 sorcery rules as overly-complicated so I assume there is not much of a market for them, but if anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate hearing them. Cheers.

[Nozbat]

I think the Sorcery rules are being re-written and due for publishing soon in RQG and I suspect new rules for BRP will follow closely.

I'm probably in the minority in saying I actually liked the Sorcery rules in RQ3 and the current iterations so I'm probably not the best person to comment on them and others will have a view.

In my view, Sorcery is not the fast, snappy instantaneous type of magic unless you want the crowd pleasing cantrip type stuff of making eggs appear out of nostrils or lighting a pipe with a flame from a finger. Sorcery is contemplative, requiring careful preparation, the exact quantities and quality of ingredients, long periods of study and meditation to be in the right frame of mind and then oodles of MPs to make it last longer than a still-born mayfly.

The way I see it is that Sorcery is summoning and binding, enchanting, divining (knowledge and power), necromancy, alchemy and blood magic.. all of which take a significant cost in time, energy and often components. Therefore, its not really that attractive to PCs who might want to go adventuring as there is nothing very helpful when faced by the Troll guardian of the bridge you want to cross other than to split the cost with the rest of the party for the toll. 

I guess it depends on what your world is like. I usually run  low magic, more alternative historical type campaigns but sorcery, witches, alchemists, theists, mysticism, Kabbalists etc are all part of it and generally terrify the PCs. Most of the spell casting happens off screen and has been days, weeks or even years in the making when the PCs have to interact with it, so mechanics for me are not that important but rather a focus on the outcome and possibly how to stop the outcome.

I sometimes, for effect and because I generally like cinematography, have a Sorcerer cast a flashy, devastating spell that kills an NPC in a horrible and gruesome manner to ground the PCs and make them cautious when dealing with Sorcerers. For instance, when running a Saxon campaign, the Læches usually had their own, very different agendas. Sometimes they coincided with the PCs, sometimes they worked very much against them. The PCs hated the Læches and would happily have killed them but had been on a quest to free their father's spirit and happened upon Nastrond's Hall, where the people who killed Læches (amongst other demeanours) where tortured endlessly. This had a rather sobering effect on the PCs plans to kill the Læche that sacrificed their friends to the spirits. 

I think it's possible to pick and choose from existing published material for what you want for Sorcery, if it's important to have PCs as Sorcerers. However, whatever you choose, balance is important. Sorcery can be powerful and easy access to high levels of spells leads to the D&D fireball syndrome of rolling too many 1d6 dice. 

[Sheelba]

Nozbat,

Thank you for taking the time to write your post.

And thank you for pointing out that BRP rules for sorcery might be updated soon after the long awaited sorcery update for RQG. I will keep an eye out for that.

On the whole I very much agree. RQ already has its equivalent to fireball, it’s called “I order my bound 5 cubic metre fire elemental to engulf the troll”. It is available to the three different types of magician. I don’t want sorcery to be flashy like that. Sorcery on the whole should indeed be hours, days, weeks, months or even years in the making, for the big scary stuff. I imagine my players would spend quite some time investing points of POW into their bindings and protective items before they got round to risking a big elemental - and even more so for demons (even for the relatively weak demons from the 1980’s Imagine magazines I have). What you have to go through to become Paulus the Cappadocian Necromancer with his army of animated skeletons with bound demons and elementals galore, bent on nothing less than opening the Way for his demon lord is unimaginable. Decades of preparation even with subordinates doing a lot of the work, I would think. My PC’s will never invest this time and effort into being super-sorcerers. And if they did, good on them. (Of course they would all go insane before achieving this). And your tale of Læches was very cool. All the same, I would like to use something akin to the RQ3 sorcery rules for a lower magic feel and balance.

The game setting will be late 9th Century in the Byzantine Empire (near what was once the Kingdom of Cappadocia but not involving Paulus the Necromancer), so like yours an alternative history campaign. I want priests to adhere to the RQ3 rule of having to have 10 full points of POW invested in divine magic to be eligible for investment, making them rare. If you are not a priest then points of divine magic are lost when you use the spells. The official religion will be Orthodox and there will be foreigners (like Rus or even Siberians and Step-People) worshiping the Old Gods or practicing Shamanism. Small amounts of spirit magic will be common: the farmer who can blow a charm onto their throbbing thumb (heal 1); the Rus who whispers a plea to his ancestral spirits to make his axe sharp and his skin thick (bladeshape 1, protection 1); the tailor singing a mending spell to speed up their repair work while trying to make it go under the local priest’s radar. There will be local worshippers of the Old Gods as well, Zeus, Isis, Mithras will all receive prayers from soldiers and travellers who need help more than they need to conform to orthodoxy. Sorcerers will immerse themselves in old sciences and philosophies. They might not have intended to walk that path when they started but who can ignore the truth?

So casting a divine spell will be very costly unless you are a priest, which will signify high level. You wouldn’t want to mark yourself as a super powerful caster anyway (e.g. making a difference on a battlefield which people might hear about) in case you become the target of assassins. I would like sorcery to be a nice alternative. I want skills like multi-spell and range to remain skills like they were. This will almost certainly require the use of ceremony to increase the casting time of some spells. I would also like a few that are useful in battle. The damage reduction you stayed up half the night casting at a level to be worthwhile is the sorcery which will save you (and I would think of as being medium length casting), but having something like drain or palsy to hinder your foes on the battlefield would be fun too. I like the idea of dragging my bleeding comrade to the side and frantically doing first aid to keep them alive. Later I can kneel by their side humming the ancient words and making passes over their wounds forming the sign of XXXXXXXXXX for an hour or two (because I only have 8% on the spell and need to do an hour’s ceremony to have a reasonable chance of success), bidding their flesh to knit and their blood to flow (treat wounds 2 with an extended duration). I think this is more fun the “I cast heal 3 and stop the bleeding” in the melee. Naturally, the penalty for sorcery will be death if you are caught.

I think the RQG rules dropped multi-spell and made intensity, range and duration automatic if you have the free int (although I cannot be bothered looking that up). I would rather keep them as skills which would absorb some of the PC’s skill points on creation. At the end of my apprenticeship I have a good theoretical knowledge (decent skills), but poor practical ability (low spell %’s). I think this will demand the player allocate resources to abilities to off-set their gain in power.

So while I agree to a large measure that sorcery is the path to great power which takes a huge amount of time and resources I also think sorcery would have a place in my campaign as something the PCs can use in a less direct manner than the other two forms.

 

[Edited for grammar]

Edited March 26 by Sheelba

[Nozbat]

11 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

late 9th Century in the Byzantine Empire

Excellent.. I used to think history ended on 29th May 1453, but I'm better now and have realised the Capture of Constantinople didn't mean the end of civilisation. Have you looked at Design Mechanisms Mythic Constantinople? Excellent source material.

14 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

I want priests to adhere to the RQ3 rule of having to have 10 full points of POW invested in divine magic to be eligible for investment, making them rare.

That's an interesting idea. Personally, I wouldn't have set it so high other than for a Bishop. I think there are lots of 'country' priests who can use spells like Heal, Bless Crops, Cure Barrenness, etc that keep the faith going by providing low level 'miracles'. Use of Saints and Angels as 'subcults' can be interesting. I came across an icon in a cobblers shop in Hamburg that was to St Crispin (Patron Saint of Cobblers, Tanners and Leather workers) and thought that it might be useful to have cults that offer skills and minor magics (including summoning elves to finish the shoes you couldn't be bothered to finish yourself). More seriously, a Subcult of Michael the Archangel might be useful for warriors and so on. If I remember correctly, Crusaders of the Amber Coast deals with magic and Christian Priests along with the pagan Slavic gods and shamans. There is also a Frankish Lord in the RQ3 Vikings stats for GMs who has a piece of the True Cross that acts as a spell storage device for Heal Body. I think relics offer an option for one use spells that can be later 're-charged' by appropriate overnight-on-your-knees worship at a major shrine. 

 

29 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

foreigners (like Rus or even Siberians and Step-People) worshiping the Old Gods or practicing Shamanism

This is always good for annoying the faithful and the priests.. realpolitik triumphing over fundamentalism and a good source of social, political and religious conflict. Again in RQ3 Vikings there is a Finnish (?) Shaman who unleashes the wind to escape enemies by sailing boat by untying knots in his string fetish. Always interesting ways of portraying magic.

35 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

the Rus who whispers a plea to his ancestral spirits

The Slavs have a number of small household spirts akin to the huldafolk who can be prevailed upon to carry out small magicks too for the price of a bowl of milk and some cheese. Christianity in 800s, particularly in the provinces, was a mishmash of paganism with a gloss of Christianity over it and many of the 'old ways' were still carried out with the Church's blessing. Consider the excesses of Carnival, particularly the sexual frivolity, that the Church tried to suppress but gave up as it was impossible to quash. How many saints in Ireland are just christianised versions of pagan goddesses? They even have the same attributes, except they had to have an additional feature of being a martyr. I recently re-read Poul Anderson's The Mermaids Children which has an interesting take on Christianity, Faerie and paganism in the Balkans and Hansa areas. 

 

44 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

I like the idea of dragging my bleeding comrade to the side and frantically doing first aid to keep them alive.

I like this.. it brings a sense of jeopardy for the PCs.. not every battle is needed!

 

48 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

Sorcerers will immerse themselves in old sciences and philosophies

Although too late for your campaign, the Renaissance interest in Greek philosophy opened up many areas of new thinking. In Prague and Bohemia, astrology, talking to angels, alchemy were state funded and encouraged. However, who is not to say that it started in Constantinople with the vast classical libraries still extant? Some of those libraries had forbidden texts and knowledge from older times.

 

54 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

“I order my bound 5 cubic metre fire elemental to engulf the troll”.

Might be a good idea rather than paying the toll for crossing the bridge though

Good luck with the campaign. Sounds interesting.. and do keep us updated

[Mugen]

The Sandy Petersen rules for RQ3 Sorcery are worth reading.

They add Presence, which is a limit on the total number of effect levels of spells one can maintain.

They also diminish the impact of Free Int, using skill/10 as the maximum level for each effect.

They also get rid of Duration. If you have enough Presence to cast a spell, it lasts forever.

It also adds new Arts and spells, which are all optional.

If you want simplified versions of Sorcery, Mythras and OpenQuest are also interesting.

Edited March 26 by Mugen

[SDLeary]

6 hours ago, Sheelba said:

I'm curious to know if there is anything newer than the messy "The Magic Book" which uses the sorcery rules of Intensity, Multispell, Range and Duration. I just bought the new BRP rules and I'm very disappointed to find they aren't there (I know, I should have written this post before buying). The Magic Book has references to tables which aren't in the book and could do with a re-write. The newer RQG  sorcery rules (which I also own) are simpler and appear tweaked to make them less attractive to PC's, at least to my mind. I think this is appropriate for the setting. However, I bought BRP because I had expected sorcery rules which are similar to the RQ3 rules, which are is my favourite magic system. Having various editions of CoC and RQG I simply wouldn't have bothered spending the money for BRP if I had known it was going to have the magic system it has. I can make do with The Magic Book rules but I am hoping there is a product which feels more finished out there. I'm not willing to spend more money, on say, the Advanced Sorcery book, without knowing what I am buying, hence this post.

I know some people found the whole RQ3 sorcery rules as overly-complicated so I assume there is not much of a market for them, but if anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate hearing them. Cheers.

What's in The Magic Book are the systems from RQ3. If you're looking for something a little different, you might want to look at the Magic World/BRP supplement Advanced Sorcery. Adds many interesting systems, from various older supplements such as The Unknown East by @lawrence.whitaker, and a few others. 

If your looking for a more Western/European take to magic, there is John Snead's system from Liber Ka, later republished as Enlightened Magic.

SDLeary

Edited March 26 by SDLeary

[Sheelba]

16 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I used to think history ended on 29th May 1453

Or maybe 12th of April 1204. 

16 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Christianity in 800s, particularly in the provinces, was a mishmash of paganism with a gloss of Christianity over it and many of the 'old ways' were still carried out with the Church's blessing.

 

16 hours ago, Nozbat said:

realpolitik triumphing over fundamentalism and a good source of social, political and religious conflict.

Some of the reasons why the 9th century is a good choice for a campaign. 

16 hours ago, Nozbat said:

That's an interesting idea. Personally, I wouldn't have set it so high other than for a Bishop.

I want to avoid a situation where there is vast amount of divine magic as this would inevitably become central to any war effort. If there is a priest in every village which can use it's divine magic again and again then why wouldn't they? Of course there will be ideological reasons and political not to mention practical. But I'm wary of letting there be an institutional structure which guarantees the presence of powerful magic. The Orthodox Church was inextricably bound into the Byzantine state and if it could have welded magic capable of influencing the functioning of the state as opposed to wielding theological and economic power then I imagine things would play out differently. But I can't begin to predict what that would look like. So it will be a face possessing magic but at a higher level. So yes, most "priests" from a technical game point of view will be bishops, concentrating the bulk of divine magic in the hands of a select few who already have a great deal of power and influence. However, local priests will still use their divine magic to help their flock. They will simply have access to less. They will also have a little more spirit magic than the average so will be more likely to use that. And every so often there will be a local priest who is also a technical priest and have a surprising amount of clout. These people might go on the become saints themselves...

Too many good ideas and suggestions for me to address individually. Thank you for your input. I'll be chasing up a good number of them. 

[Sheelba]

15 hours ago, SDLeary said:

What's in The Magic Book are the systems from RQ3. If you're looking for something a little different, you might want to look at the Magic World/BRP supplement Advanced Sorcery. Adds many interesting systems, from various older supplements such as The Unknown East by @lawrence.whitaker, and a few others. 

If your looking for a more Western/European take to magic, there is John Snead's system from Liber Ka, later republished as Enlightened Magic.

SDLeary

What I am really looking for is a sorcery system very much like the RQ3 system but integrated into the current iteration of BRP. I simply don't like the version in the BRP at all and while that doesn't reduce my high regard for BRP having started with CoC back in the '80's I was hoping someone had written it. But it doesn't really matter part of the point of BRP is that you can easily take out something like the magic system and replace it with another. That said, I will having a look at Enlightened Magic. Even if it only provides some flavour I think it would be useful, and it looks like it could add considerably more. Thank you for your suggestions.

 

[Sheelba]

16 hours ago, Mugen said:

If you want simplified versions of Sorcery, Mythras and OpenQuest are also interesting.

I don't, at least not for the majority of the time. I intend having cultists as protagonists and part of the allure will be access to magic which doesn't require the kind of study which RQ3 sorcery demanded (or devotion to a God who deals in a contractual manner, or even the need to be part of a community in anyway). So this might fit in here, I'll have a look. But the current BRP rules appear so simple (from the point of the user) that I can't imagine needing to simplify further (although to be fair I haven't been able to read them in detail as they are so far from what I want I just give up every time I try so I'll likely just use CoC magic for cultists who don't have the magic systems the PCs have access to). And if my players can't understand a magic system then well and good, there is mystery in magic. 

16 hours ago, Mugen said:

The Sandy Petersen rules for RQ3 Sorcery are worth reading.

I looked at this some time ago and again it isn't what I want. I'm just going to be using RQ3 rules and deal with anything which doesn't smoothly fit into current BRP, I suppose. As with the others I very much appreciate the time you took to try and help me. It is nice to be reminded of the options and the more people suggest the more I find myself thinking through what I want and coalescing my thoughts. Thank you. 

[Mugen]

44 minutes ago, Sheelba said:

I looked at this some time ago and again it isn't what I want. I'm just going to be using RQ3 rules and deal with anything which doesn't smoothly fit into current BRP, I suppose.

My intent was not to tell you to use this system as a whole, but as an inspiration. It's just too complex, and uses too many skills.

But I don't understand which parts of Sandy Petersen's rules could be less in phase with "current BRP" than the original RuneQuest 3 rules, to be honest.

Most of the rules in the BRUGE come from games published between 1981 and 1992, and the system is essentially the same as it was in the 80s, with options to make it as simple as CoC or as complex as RQ3.

 

Edited March 27 by Mugen

[NickMiddleton]

1 hour ago, Sheelba said:

I don't, at least not for the majority of the time. I intend having cultists as protagonists and part of the allure will be access to magic which doesn't require the kind of study which RQ3 sorcery demanded (or devotion to a God who deals in a contractual manner, or even the need to be part of a community in anyway). So this might fit in here, I'll have a look. But the current BRP rules appear so simple (from the point of the user) that I can't imagine needing to simplify further (although to be fair I haven't been able to read them in detail as they are so far from what I want I just give up every time I try so I'll likely just use CoC magic for cultists who don't have the magic systems the PCs have access to). And if my players can't understand a magic system then well and good, there is mystery in magic. 

I looked at this some time ago and again it isn't what I want. I'm just going to be using RQ3 rules and deal with anything which doesn't smoothly fit into current BRP, I suppose. As with the others I very much appreciate the time you took to try and help me. It is nice to be reminded of the options and the more people suggest the more I find myself thinking through what I want and coalescing my thoughts. Thank you. 

This might be of interest: 

It’s  an overlay for the “full” version of BRP Sorcery system from Magic World & Advanced Sorcery but is entirely compatible with the concise version in BRP-UGE (and Magic World & Advanced Sorcery are useful adjuncts to that system). It owes a clear debt to RQ3 Sorcery, but is also highly streamlined compared to that, but might provided some ideas?

[Sheelba]

Thanks for chipping in everybody. I just had The Magic Book when I started this post and have subsequently picked up an old copy of the RG3 box set. The more I think the more I prefer RQ3 in almost every area, strike ranks instead of DEX ranks and INT ranks, all three magics (spirit, divine and sorcery), basically everything. The only thing I prefer about BRP is the character generation which is very similar to the current CoC rules which I am using for my 1920's game. I can simply use the Student or Wizard professions and tell them to use personal skill points for the sorcery skill. Or I will simply invent a new profession. After all, the formula is simple enough. The rest will be pretty pure RQ3 although I will look more closely at world stuff (falling, disease and the like) to see what I prefer. 

You all promoted me to reflect on what I want by making suggestions or querying what I was thinking or wanted. So you have helped considerably. Much appreciated.

[Ravenheart87]

I have a soft spot for RQ3e, especially the british Basic version. Nice, clean, short, and has a simple point distribution method instead of fiddling with professions.

[Mugen]

35 minutes ago, Ravenheart87 said:

I have a soft spot for RQ3e, especially the british Basic version. Nice, clean, short, and has a simple point distribution method instead of fiddling with professions.

The simple version (*) was also present in the original game. It's just easier to miss as it only takes a paragraph.

(*) You get 30% to spend each year after 15, with a maximum of 75+bonus for skills with an experience check box, and 100% for others. An average, 22 years old character has 210% total.

[rsanford]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:00 AM, Nozbat said:

I think the Sorcery rules are being re-written and due for publishing soon in RQG and I suspect new rules for BRP will follow closely.

I'm probably in the minority in saying I actually liked the Sorcery rules in RQ3 and the current iterations so I'm probably not the best person to comment on them and others will have a view.

In my view, Sorcery is not the fast, snappy instantaneous type of magic unless you want the crowd pleasing cantrip type stuff of making eggs appear out of nostrils or lighting a pipe with a flame from a finger. Sorcery is contemplative, requiring careful preparation, the exact quantities and quality of ingredients, long periods of study and meditation to be in the right frame of mind and then oodles of MPs to make it last longer than a still-born mayfly.

The way I see it is that Sorcery is summoning and binding, enchanting, divining (knowledge and power), necromancy, alchemy and blood magic.. all of which take a significant cost in time, energy and often components. Therefore, its not really that attractive to PCs who might want to go adventuring as there is nothing very helpful when faced by the Troll guardian of the bridge you want to cross other than to split the cost with the rest of the party for the toll. 

I guess it depends on what your world is like. I usually run  low magic, more alternative historical type campaigns but sorcery, witches, alchemists, theists, mysticism, Kabbalists etc are all part of it and generally terrify the PCs. Most of the spell casting happens off screen and has been days, weeks or even years in the making when the PCs have to interact with it, so mechanics for me are not that important but rather a focus on the outcome and possibly how to stop the outcome.

I sometimes, for effect and because I generally like cinematography, have a Sorcerer cast a flashy, devastating spell that kills an NPC in a horrible and gruesome manner to ground the PCs and make them cautious when dealing with Sorcerers. For instance, when running a Saxon campaign, the Læches usually had their own, very different agendas. Sometimes they coincided with the PCs, sometimes they worked very much against them. The PCs hated the Læches and would happily have killed them but had been on a quest to free their father's spirit and happened upon Nastrond's Hall, where the people who killed Læches (amongst other demeanours) where tortured endlessly. This had a rather sobering effect on the PCs plans to kill the Læche that sacrificed their friends to the spirits. 

I think it's possible to pick and choose from existing published material for what you want for Sorcery, if it's important to have PCs as Sorcerers. However, whatever you choose, balance is important. Sorcery can be powerful and easy access to high levels of spells leads to the D&D fireball syndrome of rolling too many 1d6 dice. 

Wow Nozbat, your setting sounds like a blast!

[Nozbat]

18 minutes ago, rsanford said:

Wow Nozbat, your setting sounds like a blast!

That's my view of the Campaign @rsanford .. you'd have to ask my players if they find it as amusing as I do... 

[Questbird]

On 4/13/2024 at 4:13 AM, Sheelba said:

Thanks for chipping in everybody. I just had The Magic Book when I started this post and have subsequently picked up an old copy of the RG3 box set. The more I think the more I prefer RQ3 in almost every area, strike ranks instead of DEX ranks and INT ranks, all three magics (spirit, divine and sorcery), basically everything. The only thing I prefer about BRP is the character generation which is very similar to the current CoC rules which I am using for my 1920's game. I can simply use the Student or Wizard professions and tell them to use personal skill points for the sorcery skill. Or I will simply invent a new profession. After all, the formula is simple enough. The rest will be pretty pure RQ3 although I will look more closely at world stuff (falling, disease and the like) to see what I prefer. 

You all promoted me to reflect on what I want by making suggestions or querying what I was thinking or wanted. So you have helped considerably. Much appreciated.

 

Maybe a bit late to the party, but whenever magic system discussions come up I post the systems I use (plus one I just muse about) I run a fairly low-power campaign where magic-users are feared and shunned.