Looking for help and suggestions: Modular Weapons and other stuff

[conajofa]

Hi!

I'm somewhat new and old to the BRP, playing CoC since 2017, Mythras in pandemic, some Delta Green one-shoots.

I finally motivate myself (mostly out of spite against other system, Red Markets) to give my shot to costumize the BRP to my taste using what I learned from the others game. I'm very glad with the results, borrowing from multiple games to have an interesting and fun D100.

While GMing this game, something sparked on me that was off from some time. I want to do a game in the Project Moon City (a somewhat cyberpunk, somewhat weird science, somewhat magic setting). But there is one problem I always have.

The big problem is one: I want a system that allows players to buy costumized weapons. In the sense that, for example, one player can buy a flaming sword while other buys a battery-fueled chainsaw and both feel their weapons distinct. But for now BRP and derivates seems to move more in the lines of "big table of pre-made weapons" instead of "list of effects that, together, form a weapon"

I will explain how it was on my first attempt without a foundational system, I can go more in deep if needed:

1. Select Rank of the Weapon, this define its price.
2. Select if the Weapon is Ranged or Melee
   • If Melee, select a Damage Type (Pierce, Blunt, Slash)
3. Select a Property (Defensive, Reach, Heavy, Small)
4. Select effect based on its Rank (Rank 1 weapons have 2 Points for effects, Rank 2 have 4 Points, etc.)
5. Take flaws for extra Points (Rank 1 could take up to 2 Points on Flaws, etc)
6. Your weapon is ready

Some effects were things like "Inflict Burn 4", "Increase Block +1", "+1 to Reach", "Gain extra damage if the Target is Burn" "Gain extra damage if the User is Burn", etc, etc.

While I liked that approach, the problem with that system is that it only worked on combat, and non-combat mechanics were awful. And because of how that combat worked (weapon define hit chance and damage, Rank was limited by Level, etc.) I can't translate it directly to BRP.

I'm mostly looking for any advice or guide of were I could find something similar for BRP in weapon costumization.

[rsanford]

Hey @conajofa!

First welcome to the madness of BRP! This site is a treasure-trove for all things related to BRP, and for sure you will want to check out the download section when you get time. Having said that, I can't think of a single public resource for what you describe above; which I might add is seriously cool. That's not to say it hasn't been done a thousand times, I just haven't seen anything uploaded related to that.

But I wonder if the Stormbringer folks on this site have some ideas, since the concept of demons bound into weapons was a trope explored in those books? Can anyone comment?

[soltakss]

On 4/7/2024 at 8:16 PM, conajofa said:

I will explain how it was on my first attempt without a foundational system, I can go more in deep if needed:

1. Select Rank of the Weapon, this define its price.
2. Select if the Weapon is Ranged or Melee
   • If Melee, select a Damage Type (Pierce, Blunt, Slash)
3. Select a Property (Defensive, Reach, Heavy, Small)
4. Select effect based on its Rank (Rank 1 weapons have 2 Points for effects, Rank 2 have 4 Points, etc.)
5. Take flaws for extra Points (Rank 1 could take up to 2 Points on Flaws, etc)
6. Your weapon is ready

Some effects were things like "Inflict Burn 4", "Increase Block +1", "+1 to Reach", "Gain extra damage if the Target is Burn" "Gain extra damage if the User is Burn", etc, etc.

 

That is a good approach for building a weapon from scratch.

So, in BRP terms, you choose how big the weapon is and how it is used, that gives you a range for Strike Rank and maybe Armour Points or Damage. You add special effects where necessary, so a weapon might entangle, disarm, break other weapons, or whatever. 

Alternatively, take existing weapons and amend them. So, a Blaster is like a pistol but with a bit more damage and an energy pack with 100 shots.

 

[rsanford]

On 4/7/2024 at 2:16 PM, conajofa said:

Hi!

I'm somewhat new and old to the BRP, playing CoC since 2017, Mythras in pandemic, some Delta Green one-shoots.

I finally motivate myself (mostly out of spite against other system, Red Markets) to give my shot to costumize the BRP to my taste using what I learned from the others game. I'm very glad with the results, borrowing from multiple games to have an interesting and fun D100.

While GMing this game, something sparked on me that was off from some time. I want to do a game in the Project Moon City (a somewhat cyberpunk, somewhat weird science, somewhat magic setting). But there is one problem I always have.

The big problem is one: I want a system that allows players to buy costumized weapons. In the sense that, for example, one player can buy a flaming sword while other buys a battery-fueled chainsaw and both feel their weapons distinct. But for now BRP and derivates seems to move more in the lines of "big table of pre-made weapons" instead of "list of effects that, together, form a weapon"

I will explain how it was on my first attempt without a foundational system, I can go more in deep if needed:

1. Select Rank of the Weapon, this define its price.
2. Select if the Weapon is Ranged or Melee
   • If Melee, select a Damage Type (Pierce, Blunt, Slash)
3. Select a Property (Defensive, Reach, Heavy, Small)
4. Select effect based on its Rank (Rank 1 weapons have 2 Points for effects, Rank 2 have 4 Points, etc.)
5. Take flaws for extra Points (Rank 1 could take up to 2 Points on Flaws, etc)
6. Your weapon is ready

Some effects were things like "Inflict Burn 4", "Increase Block +1", "+1 to Reach", "Gain extra damage if the Target is Burn" "Gain extra damage if the User is Burn", etc, etc.

While I liked that approach, the problem with that system is that it only worked on combat, and non-combat mechanics were awful. And because of how that combat worked (weapon define hit chance and damage, Rank was limited by Level, etc.) I can't translate it directly to BRP.

I'm mostly looking for any advice or guide of were I could find something similar for BRP in weapon costumization.

Okay, just so I understand.. When you say “rank” are you thinking of something like “levels” in Dungeons & Dragons? What are the implications of a weapon having a rank in your mind? Is rank more a way of establishing a weapons general power level and cost or do you see it being tied to a player character’s “level” in games like D&D? I ask because if it’s not tied to a character’s level then I don’t see what’s to keep you from arbitrarily just adding a level system to BRP that applies solely to weapons. So maybe a rank 1 chainsaw has two points for effects and costs $200 gold / credits, etc, while a rank 2 chainsaw with 4 point is more expensive.

If what you mean, is that player characters are only allowed to buy magic chainsaws that match their own experience rank or level, then you would need to create a simple table that equates character experience (how many experience points a character has accumulated) with an arbitrary rank / level set by you the GM. So perhaps, 1500 experience points equates to level one and 4000 equate to level 2. If you wanted to go all the way with that idea  you could make it that the number of experience points equated to the various levels / ranks are directly correlated with the number of character creation points initially used to build the character, so perhaps a base character, rank 0, starts with 1500 character creation points, at rank 1, the character has 1600 character points meaning that the player has 100 more points to spend on skills or perhaps magic chainsaws. And note I’m using made up numbers here, as I don’t remember what it cost to raise skills in BRP off the top of my head. And by the way, I seem to remember Magic World having a table like that with three or four categories (something like novice, experienced, veteran, expert) for use in character creation.

You also mentioned above that your system only really worked for combat and that it was awful for non-combat. Why is that? Was it because the table of effects only listed effects that were useful in combat? If so then “generalizing” the effects listed on that table might be the key. For example, maybe one effect is searing heat, a second effect causes combustion with flammable materials touched, a third effect could be melts metal, etc. Of course you would also want to include in the table how the effect modifies weapon damage as well as well as how it modifies the environment. Perhaps a sword with searing heat might keep characters in 10 feet from the sword warm in artic conditions..

Hope I’m not way off course here. You know, we should ask Chris Tooley as he drips brilliance and creativity everywhere he goes! @tooley1chris can you put in your ten cents?

Edited April 14 by rsanford

[conajofa]

Hi!

Thanks for the welcome and the answers, point by point:

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

Okay, just so I understand.. When you say “rank” are you thinking of something like “levels” in Dungeons & Dragons? What are the implications of a weapon having a rank in your mind? Is rank more a way of establishing a weapons general power level and cost or do you see it being tied to a player character’s “level” in games like D&D? I ask because if it’s not tied to a character’s level then I don’t see what’s to keep you from arbitrarily just adding a level system to BRP that applies solely to weapons. So maybe a rank 1 chainsaw has two points for effects and costs $200 gold / credits, etc, while a rank 2 chainsaw with 4 point is more expensive.

Basically Rank determines quality of the manufacture and by itself doesn't change anything else except the ammount of points for Effects. The core/meat of weapons is in its effects. So higher Rank weapons have more points for more damage, effects, capacities, etc.

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

If what you mean, is that player characters are only allowed to buy magic chainsaws that match their own experience rank or level, then you would need to create a simple table that equates character experience (how many experience points a character has accumulated) with an arbitrary rank / level set by you the GM.

I can vibe with that. In the original system the weapons were limited by Rank/Level of the Character but that was because weapon were also Hit Chance. So, for example, a base weapon give a 1d6 attack and the character could expend Effect Points of the weapon to increase that Attack to 1d7, 1d8, 1d10, etc. So basically the only thing that make higher Rank enemies and character stronger than low Rank enemies or character was the capacity to use higher Rank weapons, and if they took a low Rank weapon, they were in a worst position.

A Ranking/Grade system still something I could find very useful for the setting and helping me to accomodate NPCs. In the setting there are wild power differences and like 10 Grades of expertise.

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

You also mentioned above that your system only really worked for combat and that it was awful for non-combat. Why is that? Was it because the table of effects only listed effects that were useful in combat? If so then “generalizing” the effects listed on that table might be the key. For example, maybe one effect is searing heat, a second effect causes combustion with flammable materials touched, a third effect could be melts metal, etc. Of course you would also want to include in the table how the effect modifies weapon damage as well as well as how it modifies the environment. Perhaps a sword with searing heat might keep characters in 10 feet from the sword warm in artic conditions..

The reason is more related to the system. It was a derivated of PbtA in its narrative mechanics but without any space for out-of-combat mechanics, and due to a lack of understanding from the team on PbtA design, we had a lot of stuff with +4 or more to the checks. This even destroy the flow of combat. For example, while you can have weapons and armor that help you to evade or block attacks, Grappling was a opposed PbtA check that didn't use neither weapons or armor, only the core stats. 

This is the documents of the project until I left it for the creative differences with the design team if you want to check:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kBK7gAYS8kGUHUdMsoQFfAmoQM6dmzZX57yT--Di1HQ/edit

6 hours ago, rsanford said:

Hope I’m not way off course here. You know, we should ask Chris Tooley as he drips brilliance and creativity everywhere he goes!

No idea who are they, but hoping they pass by!

Edited April 15 by conajofa

[Peter Fitz]

Once you've got the size, shape, bulk etc. of the weapon determined, and you've decided if it's a melee weapon or a ranged attack, then in my view the most important things about it are the Special Effects of just how it does its damage. In pure game terms, damage is just pips on a die, but if your weapon is, say, a Flaming Sword then the SFX become the most important thing to differentiate your toy.

Are the flames large, like a torch, or do they just lick along the edges of the blade? That may affect the ease and extent to which it will ignite flammable objects or creatures. Can the flames be directed like a short-range flamethrower, or does it just act like a burning brand? Is the blade itself hot? In which case it may cauterize the wounds it inflicts, so less bleeding. Is it always hot, or does it get hotter as you use it? In which case, how long can you hold on to it before you start scorching your own hand? Or does the handle somehow stay cool? Can the sword be used to intentionally cauterize a bleeding wound (i.e First Aid) or will it just do more damage to the victim without helping?

All of these possibilities arise because your Flaming Sword has a bunch of SFX.

Any weapon in a RPG, at its core, is just a mechanism to deliver X amount of damage points. That's not very interesting. The interesting thing is how it delivers that damage, and the consequences of how it delivers the damage.

[rsanford]

Hey @conajofa let me stew on both how the best way to implement an effect table might be, and what might be appropriate for a table equating experience / skill points to a level system. I will try to answer by tomorrow evening, but it might be Tuesday, depending on how many honey-dos my wife has for me tomorrow.

For the moment though, it strikes me there are a couple of things that need to be considered. (I am going to reference Magic World, because that's the BRP variant I prefer and know best...) 

1. I have zero experience with PbtA or any narrative game but if PbtA shares any similarities with D&D, character level really equates to combat ability rather than general skill ability. That implies that a 540 point Veteran Magic World character might or might not necessarily be as good in combat as a less experienced 510 point Magic World character. So creating a table so that you can make judgements about what NPCs or adversaries are appropriate is probably problematic. Perhaps, instead, a table might be created ranking a character's combat capability based on some combination of a character's brawl, dodge, wrestle and weapon skills; though that's not perfect either because a character that had 60 in both dagger and broadsword (120 points total) might easily fall to an opponent that had 85 points in broadsword, but only the base points in dagger.

2. My initial thought is the system for adding special (combat) effects could pretty much work just as you described it above, if instead of multi-benefit effect table entries, each table entry provided a single effect per it's power level but those benefits would stack. So perhaps a table that listed ten or fifteen effects down the left side of the table and four power levels aross the top... So perhaps, the Heat effect at level 1 would be hot enough to sear flesh causing +1 damage on impact; while level 2 would be fiery, causing and additional +1 damage, the ability to cauterize wounds, and the ability to shed dim light in 5 foot radius; and level 3 would add the yet another +1 to damage and the ability to project flames out to 20 foot distance... Something like that...

 

 

 

[Atgxtg]

The old Superworld RPG had some rules for customizing weapons with Hero Poiints, the same points used to buy superpowers.

A weapon cost 1 Hero Point per 2 points of max damage, provided most of the damage was random, or 1 per point if it wasn't. So a weapon that did 1D10 damage would cost 5 Hero Points.

Weapons got the specials appropriate o thier type (mostly for impaling weapons, but it BRP you could include bleeding, crush, knockdown, etc. Assume a weapon gets one special type for no cost. Since specials occur about 20% of the time, you could assume that buying another special or selling one off is worth 20% (1/5th) of the weapons cost. So a weapon that did 1D10 damage with no special bonus would only cost 4 Hero Points. One that could choose between crush or knockdown could cost 6 points. 

Ranged weapons just got range based on the weapon type/description but you could give it a point cost. Something like 1 HP per 20m or so.

You could use that as a baseline for your system, and then apply point costs and discounts for other effects (probably based on the superpowers and limitations). 

 

[Joerg]

If I understand this approach correctly, you treat superior mundane manufacturing with the same system as magical, super/psionic or technological powers added to the item in order to determine its price, possibly with the inherent flaw of the weapon being unpowered.

A narrow area of power will allow a greater effect. A Vorpal Blade might increase the chance to land a decapitating blow in a number of ways - it could adjust the hit location probability, it could add penetration to neck strikes only, it could remove the usual penalty for an aimed blow to the neck, or (at exponential cost) a combination of these.

You don't seem to have planned rules for manufacture of such items, but to me this sounds like weapons made from (or at least including) powered materials (whether elemental essence, special celestial body material, Vis as in Ars Magica, or powers immanent to the creature the material was removed from) would aid in bestowing these powers and providing these might reduce the cost of manufacturing.

Scarcity (of materials or manufacturing opportunities) might affect price and immediate availability.

Do you have a concept how an item with several powers that don't or only partially stack would be priced/rated? Say a blade of superior manufacture that can have either a fire or a frost power, each of the three worth rank 2?

[conajofa]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

If I understand this approach correctly, you treat superior mundane manufacturing with the same system as magical, super/psionic or technological powers added to the item in order to determine its price, possibly with the inherent flaw of the weapon being unpowered.

Yeah, the setting this is based for is one were "Weird Science" becomes the norm in the market. The thing is, I'm looking for a more freeform and from scratch approach than "Base Sword + Powers" because the setting allows for stuff like "Briefcase that on command produces multiples knifes when opened that stab the person in front is defeated by a guy with a Cloud Big Sword"

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You don't seem to have planned rules for manufacture of such items, but to me this sounds like weapons made from (or at least including) powered materials (whether elemental essence, special celestial body material, Vis as in Ars Magica, or powers immanent to the creature the material was removed from) would aid in bestowing these powers and providing these might reduce the cost of manufacturing.

Scarcity (of materials or manufacturing opportunities) might affect price and immediate availability.

It hasn't be my priority perse. As the idea is that players work as the Fixers (basically mercenaries) so they don't manufacture their weapons, they buy them. I have interest in then expanding towards how a player can manufacture the equipment themselves. The limited resource in that case is probably the tools (you need specific technology for specific effects) and patents (the setting has harsh legal punishment if you manufacture something you aren't paying to be able to do)

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do you have a concept how an item with several powers that don't or only partially stack would be priced/rated? Say a blade of superior manufacture that can have either a fire or a frost power, each of the three worth rank 2?

The original idea is different in that, you first select the Rank and that gives you a series of point.

So, for example, let's say:

You have: 

- Heat - 1 Point per Level
- Freeze - 1 Point per Level

And the market has:

- Rank 1 - 2 Coins - 2 Points
- Rank 2 - 5 Coins - 4 Points
- Rank 3 - 9 Coins - 6 Points

So, a weapon capable of doing both Freeze and Heat can be a Rank 1 with one point on each, and that will cost you 2 Coin in money, the same than a Rank 1 weapon that has 2 Levels on Heat or Freeze instead of one in each.

You can expand this to other ranks, with a Rank 3 having 3 Levels on each effect and costing 9 Coins.

[conajofa]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The old Superworld RPG had some rules for customizing weapons with Hero Poiints, the same points used to buy superpowers.

A weapon cost 1 Hero Point per 2 points of max damage, provided most of the damage was random, or 1 per point if it wasn't. So a weapon that did 1D10 damage would cost 5 Hero Points.

Weapons got the specials appropriate o thier type (mostly for impaling weapons, but it BRP you could include bleeding, crush, knockdown, etc. Assume a weapon gets one special type for no cost. Since specials occur about 20% of the time, you could assume that buying another special or selling one off is worth 20% (1/5th) of the weapons cost. So a weapon that did 1D10 damage with no special bonus would only cost 4 Hero Points. One that could choose between crush or knockdown could cost 6 points. 

Ranged weapons just got range based on the weapon type/description but you could give it a point cost. Something like 1 HP per 20m or so.

You could use that as a baseline for your system, and then apply point costs and discounts for other effects (probably based on the superpowers and limitations). 

 

Oh, I really like this approach. I will see to grab Superworld when I can!

[conajofa]

12 hours ago, rsanford said:

1. I have zero experience with PbtA or any narrative game but if PbtA shares any similarities with D&D, character level really equates to combat ability rather than general skill ability. That implies that a 540 point Veteran Magic World character might or might not necessarily be as good in combat as a less experienced 510 point Magic World character. So creating a table so that you can make judgements about what NPCs or adversaries are appropriate is probably problematic. Perhaps, instead, a table might be created ranking a character's combat capability based on some combination of a character's brawl, dodge, wrestle and weapon skills; though that's not perfect either because a character that had 60 in both dagger and broadsword (120 points total) might easily fall to an opponent that had 85 points in broadsword, but only the base points in dagger.

Probably can be done something like Highest Combat Skill?

So, while a character that has 60 points across multiple weapons can be socially acknowledge and respected. They aren't in the same league than someone with 120 points on only one.

12 hours ago, rsanford said:

2. My initial thought is the system for adding special (combat) effects could pretty much work just as you described it above, if instead of multi-benefit effect table entries, each table entry provided a single effect per it's power level but those benefits would stack. So perhaps a table that listed ten or fifteen effects down the left side of the table and four power levels aross the top... So perhaps, the Heat effect at level 1 would be hot enough to sear flesh causing +1 damage on impact; while level 2 would be fiery, causing and additional +1 damage, the ability to cauterize wounds, and the ability to shed dim light in 5 foot radius; and level 3 would add the yet another +1 to damage and the ability to project flames out to 20 foot distance... Something like that...

I like the idea/approach, probably will start tinkering on it after I finish the L5R things I'm working now!

[Atgxtg]

29 minutes ago, conajofa said:

Oh, I really like this approach. I will see to grab Superworld when I can!

You don't really need to, at least not for that rule. Do keep in mind though that if most of the damage is fixed the cost shoots up to 1 for 1. So a dagger Kukri that does 1D4+3 would cost 7 HP, more that a battleaxe (1D8+2 cost 5 HP). 

I pretty much posted most of what went with that rule. It was just a short rule in a text box, designed mostly for Batman-type characters who make their own weapons, so that they could be on the same point value as the other characters.

Most of the superpowers from Superworld have been adapted into BRP in the "Powers" section. Soyou don't need Superworld just for that. For things like HEAT, FREEZE etc, superpowers are probably the way to go, especially since they use the same hero point mechanics as weapon damage above. You don't need Superworld for that as it is already included into BRP.

Now if you were going to run a full four color comics campaign then I think Superworld does that better than core BGB, but that's a whole different reason. 

 

 

Oh, but you might want to get a hold of BTRC's Stuff! supplement for their EABA system, or even just the free preview.  Stuff! has rules for building things, including a section on weapons , based on their size and tech era, with a host of modifiers such as if the weapon is one or two handed, bulky ammo, explosive damage, reload time, etc. All those modifiers could factor into your weapons point cost. I have a somewhat rudimentary adaptation to BRP damages for that too. It's not finished but it gives values in the right ballpark. I can probably send you a conversion of EABA points to Hero Points.

The Stuff! free preview is the first 20 something pages of the book, including the basic weapon design rules, with a "SAMPLE" watermark over them. Good enough for you to see what it is about and decide if it helps you. OOh, and you might as well grab the the free preview of EABA, called EABAlite, if you get Stufff! just to give you an overview of how things work so you know what you are converting, and will know if your numbers hold up in BRP terms. For instance, a 9mm Pistol does 2d+1 damage in EABA and 1D10 damage in BRP/CoC, (5 Hero Points). So you would know that a weapon that does 1d+2 in EABA   it should do less than 1D10 in BRP.

 

Edited April 15 by Atgxtg

[tooley1chris]

What Atgxtg said above with Powers is where I was leaning as well.

Also if you want items to be ranked based on character experience, you could have some effects cost power points to use so they are say 2 uses at 6 PPs per use of certain effects,  equaling 12 PPs, if the character had a 12 POW score. But... that might be too crunchy. You may be limited to coming up with a chart of all possible effects with an additional cost per effect based on the power level or rank of the effect...UGH. I don't envy you creating THAT chart. 

  I keep thinking about the old Star Wars d6 game from West End Games. They had rules for upgrading personal weapons or equipment that caused you to sacrifice character development points as well as cash. But doesn't sound like thats what you're after either. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding you just want quality Ranks in gear. The better quality, the more possible upgrades. I think the Super Powers is probably the way to go. You'll just have to find a proper substitute for Character Points to Cash ratio. 

 I would warn you, however, this can cause some crazy powerful characters if they come into a lot of cash. I think that's what using development points helps balance out.

But... in real life I could buy a .22 caliber rifle for a little money, an m16 machine gun for more money, or a tank for a lot of money. 

Hmmm. Apparently I'm not helping at all and will go back to my dark corner😀

Edited April 15 by tooley1chris

[g33k]

2 hours ago, conajofa said:

Probably can be done something like Highest Combat Skill?

...

I wouldn't use only the HCS this way, because the BRP core really silo's combat-skills:  someone who dumps all 100 of their combat points into Greatsword may be virtually helpless when someone with 75 points of Grapple surprises them into a clinch... they're stuck with their weapon sheathed and almost no skills to oppose the Grapple.  Similarly, Grappler and Greatsworder are just fish in a barrel if an archer atop a wall -- out of their reach, but with free shots at them -- begins sniping at them.

So yes:  HCS will sometimes matter a lot; but sometimes a robust suite of Combat Skills will be more relevant.

[rsanford]

Late, late, last night, it dawned on me that SuperWorld would be a great solution for rules on crafting custom weapons and devices. Today, I rushed to post here but wouldn’t you know @Atgxtg had already scooped me 🙂! In any case,I think that’s the way to move forward.

Like Atgxtg said the Big Gold Book has much of the SuperWorld material summarized in the powers chapter, so maybe it’s not necessary to purchase the SuperWorld pdf.

 

 

Edited April 16 by rsanford

[Ron Hale-Evans]

I recommend getting Superworld if possible. It has a ton more material on superpowers than either the BGB or UGE, both in terms of sheer number of powers and related materials.