Agriculture and river gods

[Garrik]

So my new (male) character has farmer background but is interested in the river god.

The location is right next to the river Lyksos, near Nochet. I think the river swells a lot during/after Sea Season, so its waters will rise on to the fields. Which is both a good and a bad thing. Perhaps mostly a bad thing, since Esrolia typically receives enough rain for cultivation.

In practical terms, I think my character has been somehow responsible for irrigation and drainage of the fields. Since Nochet has those aqueducts, he might have been active also there, getting parts of the river to nourish the people. So my character is not a fisherman or a boater, yet still has a meaningful and practical job connected to the river.

This got me thinking about the mythical and magical connections between rivers, rain and the earth. It seems that rain (Heler) is in the realm of the Storm Gods, rivers are usually allied to the Sea Gods, and earth & agriculture are the realm of the Earth Goddesses. However, making the fields fertile is paramount to all civilized people and requires coordination, and all these cults are necessary in cultivation, in one way or another.

Question: is the coordination mainly social, among humans/mortals (husband and wife, village, priests of different gods)? Or are there examples of locally allied rain/water/earth cults that bring something extra to this marriage/technology of rain, water and growth?

[Joerg]

You should get @jajagappa's input on Nochet waterways - Harald used to have his HeroQuest Glorantha Nochet campaign on RPGGeek, but it seems it disappeared since.

The Lyksos has been joined with the Engizi river by Belintar, and nowadays I expect the Engizi cult to be the main river cult even though it is the Lyksos bed the conjoined rivers share. Thanks to the Skyfall and several marshes, the Engizi river may have the most steady basic flow of all rivers in Genertela, but seasonal runoff from the south-eastern half of Dragon Pass will boost this current a lot in Sea Season.

Rainfall on the edge of Shadow Plateau might be quite reliable even in normally dry Fire Season, with evaporation from Choralinthor Bay blocked by the Plateau and likely to run off its cliffs.

I don't expect much in the way of tidal interference with the Lyksos bed, although the highest tides might be noticable upriver from Nochet (if only by the current having to push against the rising Choralinthor Bay). Esrolian water management might be mainly concerned with draining the fields, although I guess there will be reservoirs in the Mesopotamia upriver(s) from Rhigos to make up for unusual dry spells. Providing waterways to transport the harvest to the rivers and into Nochet on barges will be an important side benefit of this drainage system.

On the mythological side, the most famous marriage between Earth and Water would be that of Faralinthor and Esrola, overseen by Jolly Fat Man on the cover of the Prosopaedia (around 10 o'clock). Faralinthor was the surrogate parent of the rivers of Kethaela and Kerofinela after the Flooding of Ernaldela had receded in the Gods War, until he was dried out by a jealous (or just avaricious) Storm God.

Godtime rivers ran from the Heart of the Sea (beneath the then still intact) Earth Cube through the surface seas (mainly Togaro and his child Sshorg) into the lands surrounding the Spike, with the northwestern (Hudaran) seas initially stopped by Zzabur, rediriecting their energies to fight Ladaral the Fire Mountain, with the Tanier River possibly being fed via the Neliomi, but anything east of that by descendants of Togaro. The river heads would slowly creep inland, scooping up matter and energies, sedimenting digested stuff while sending the energies and nutrients into the seas, which replenished their currents.

The height of the Flood brought huge "rivers" - tendrils of sea creatingvast bulges even across all but the highest peaks of the Rockwood Mountains into Peloria, encircling Vingkots kingdom with two immense standing waves, huge walls of water encroaching on the lands defended by the Storm Brothers. This big flood was forced to retreat, until only Faralinthor's basin remained a sea between Jrustela and the Vithelan waters. Cut off from the Heart of the Seas, the rivers relied on Faralinthor to replenish their currents. The biggest river, Sshorg(a)/Oslir(a) had its back broken by the remains of Sh'harkarzeel, with the Marzeel River occupying its remaining river bed, and the cut-off northern portion of the river changing its direction, reconnecting to the Heart of the Seas via the White Sea.

(The Seolinthur River and its tributary Zola Fel might have retained their connection to the Sshorg River and the Heart of the Seas east of the eastern shores of Faralinthor.)

As the seas conquered during the flood fell dry, Faralinthor himself was cut off from the Heart of the Seas. As the Gods War proceeded, Faralinthor lost territory after territory, until finally only a mostly dried up salt lake remained, and possibly a few deep caverns or cenotes in higher regions beyond that salt flat. As a result, the rivers of Kethaela and Kerofinela dried up, retaining some hidden underground existence for much of the Late Storm Age.

There should be a couple of myths about rivers hiding in the bosom of the land, and possibly water-filled deep caves which might be pilgrimage sites for magically enhanced river folk (or the intelligent fish worshippers of the rivers). Choralinthor Bay, the funnel through which the rivers took their currents from Faralinthor, had become a few miserable puddles and some mud, inhabited by the followers of Amphobos (or Amphibos) worshipping Flesiska, and some allied humans (the later fisherfolk of western and southern Kethaela).

One such cenote might have been at the Caves of Diendimos, nowadays a holy place of Air Beneath Water near Deeper, but during the Lesser Darkness a hideout of the seas against the ravages of less friendly storms. I cannot say whether some Ludoch held out there in extreme confinement, or whether there were heroic ancestors of one of the two Pelaskite tribes lending them aid.

The Breaking of the World, with the Implosion of the Spike, at the onset of the Greater Darkness actually brought a respite for the rivers, even though Engizi's example (the Skyfall myth) reversed their courses and took most of their vibrant energy away to contain the Chaos Rift where the Spike had been, creating Magasta's Whirlpool and the Homeward Ocean. Even though the rivers now collected what little water the rainfalls (or the meltoff of the Great Glacier) brought to them, they were re-connected to the Heart of the Seas, although only past the Chaos Rift encapsulated by the Doom Currents and their lesser helpers.

While the southern shore of Faralinthor's basin had perished along with the foothills of the Spike, much of its bottom survived the Breaking of the World and was taken over by the Rozgali and Solkathi currents which re-emerged from their underground hiding places as the Homeward Ocean reached them. The ancient river currents retook their courses there.

[Ynneadwraith]

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I cannot say whether some Ludoch held out there in extreme confinement

Cue weird Olm-like blind albino cave-ludoch.

Ludoch who have had a proportion of their Water rune replaced with Darkness.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Garrik said:

Question: is the coordination mainly social, among humans/mortals (husband and wife, village, priests of different gods)? Or are there examples of locally allied rain/water/earth cults that bring something extra to this marriage/technology of rain, water and growth?

I recall reading somewhere (it may have been one of Jeff's posts) that when the God King redirected the Engizi via the New River he 'married' Esrola as the local Land Goddess to Engizi. I can't recall the source.

[Joerg]

When it comes to interaction of rivers with agriculture, monomythically this begins with Sshorg(a) climbing onto land after the Birth of Umath. (Local myths may have had rivers crawling inland a lot earlier, and there may have been severed sea tendrils trapped inside the top surface of the Earth Cube as it pushed through the sea surface and up the Spike in the Green Age providing the source of some very early (Green Age) instances of rivers.)

The main agricultural deities of the "Orlanthi" (or rather Ernaldans) are Barntar and the Grain Goddesses. The Orlanthi are one of the few high cultures of Glorantha who don't cultivate some form of rice in the river marshes, but there are River Folk on almost all Genertelan rivers, with the Nogatendings fo the Black Eel the closest major group in Orlanthi lands. Such wet crop farmers may have been subsumed by the Vingkotling tribes - imagine a few of the obscure names that cropped up in the HQ clan generator questions as weeders adopted into riverine Vingkotling (later Heortling) tribes, with wet crop traditions retained in ancestral memory and probably recovered at some point after the Greater Darkness (quite likely already in the Grey Age/Silver Age as a slight advantage in the survival struggle).

The main Barntar myth against droughts is a pastiche of the Aroka / Nestentos dragonslaying to free the captured rains, not exactly an irrigation feat. Still, the Orlanthi and especially the Esrolians are dam builders - Vogarth the Strong Man for instance built a dam to isolate Koravaka (the great Necropolis in central Esrolia) in an artificial lake.

The riverine lowlands of Esrolia are densely settled, to an extent the World Building rules of RQ3 (and possibly some instance of Basic Roleplaying) compared to the Nile Delta, with no notable woodland commons between settlements (although allowing for wetland commons, probably with black alder or similar water-loving trees to provide at least some minimal source of fuel). I suppose a lot of the lowland fields are protected by low dams, which might be gradually sacrificed to floodings while keeping some of the harvest alive in dry basins. Overseeing which such lowland fields are to be flooded in emergencies, and compensated for the harvest losses by the Asrelian granaries, may be one origin of the authority of the Enfranchised Houses. Other than the strong matriarchal nature of the Houses, the non-centralistic organisation into small clans with distributed responsibility for enclosing land to keep it from being flooded and reclaiming catastrophically flooded areas bears great similarity to the Frisian design of their lowland coasts against the threat of their sinking land (as a late result from the disappearance of the glaciers), also with (in their case patriarchal) clans taking the leadership in such common projects.

All of this is assuming the Mesopotamian model of irrigation for wheat antecessors during the worst of Fire Season (Summer) rather than the Egyptian model of letting open land be flooded by the annual Nile floods, bringing in lots of new fertile mud and arranging the sowing and harvesting cycles according to the floods. I don't see any evidence for such annual gift of fertile soil by the rivers of Kethaela and Kerofinela, although there might be a myth of leaving such behind as an apology after some extreme thaws.

As far as I am concerned, the majority of the (somewhat mundane) fertility of central Genertela comes from the Loess, the gift of loose soil stolen by Orlanth from the abrasions of Valind's glacier and given to his wife and her daughters, captured in the rich grasses of their bodies. (Maybe the art direction for land goddesses should give them unshaven (or rather richly overgrown meadow) legs to account for this?)

Unlike in the isolation of the Zola Fel or among the extensive bogs of the Pelorian bowl, the weeder folk of the southern rivers seem to have merged with the Dureving-(and quite likely also Helering-) descended fisherfolk following Pelaskos and Poverri, absorbed in agricultural clans (like e.g. the river worshipping bloodline(s) in the Red Cow clan) or grouped with the fisherfolk who gain the majority of their sustenance out of the water, the wetlands and the intertidal of the Choralinthor Bay. They may have quite a few of "wet crops" that aren't quite cultivated but readily harvested wild plants, like "sea asparagus" in the salt flats of the Choralinthor, water cress, reed rhizomes or kelp - resources also managed and maintained by the newtlings of the region, in addition to "crawfish" crawlies that may end up in the soup.

(Given the information that the durulz may be one of the prerequisite re-engineered races of the EWF to achieve their Proximate Holy Realm effect for their core lands, I suspect that a population of Kerofinelan river folk provided the experimental stock for the Remakers to create the durulz imitation of keets, borrowing their dietary myths for the identity of their new species.)

[Joerg]

River deities tend to be associates of the surrounding land deities and agricultural deities, with fishing and wetland harvesting the fourth of the Provider cults (farmer, herder, hunter, fisher). River management and designating flooding areas (ideally overworked fallows benefitting from fresh silt carried in) will always be done in conjunction with the river priesthood, who will also exact propitiatory sacrifices of energy (the riverine tribute to uphold Magasta's Whirlpool, keeping the Chaos Rift in the center of the world contained).

Rivers rarely form borders between different (minor) land goddesses. The main exception to this are the peninsulas between deep river estuaries, but the further inland you come the more the borders will shift away from (changeable) river courses and towards watersheds dividing the river basins. Sooner or later, a (minor) land goddess will claim both shores of "her" river(s) and the surrounding foothills rather than regard the river as the shared border with her sister on the other side. The coastal division of the lesser land goddesses in Ships and Shores makes sense, but further inland the regional land goddesses will claim the entirety of the river basins. (Which is beyond the scope of that book, but a mythical map of inland Heortland may have the goddesses in quite different distributions than viewed from the coastline.)

The major published agricultural river rite we have is the River Marriage of the Zola Fel Sun Domers between the naiad demigoddess Kinope and the Count of Sun County, described in MOB's RQ3 Renaissance masterpiece Sun County and picked up in his Sun County post-Cradle narrative on the Well of Daliath.

I would speculate that Kinope was the guardian of something like a river refuge cenote during the dry parts of the Late Storm Age, nursing a minor remnant current of Zola Fel through that period into the return of the Seas following the Breaking of the World.

Similar rites may have been part of the Esrolian and Heortling heritage in the Silver Age, with the rivers restored (although into a much lesser state of reversed current) and re-awakened.

The rain rites would be shared by the river folk traditions, after all the example set by Engizi made the re-awakened rivers dependent on rainfall run-off, underground water transport (whether as actual underground rivulets in chasms in the limestone karst beneath the loess or filtering through layers of glacial clay, marl, and sands) and mountaintop melt-off from perennial mountaintop glaciation in Inora's realm. The dragon fought by Barntar no longer represents the primal river Sshorg/Nestentos nor the invading sea Aroka, but rather the prevention of feeding the new type of river prototyped by Engizi/Lorion. It might no longer be blue itself, although it still captures the waters of Heler (including those stolen by Valind).

As a result, the Barntar variant of the Aroka myth might be set in a much bleaker post-Breaking of the World Late Vingkotling Age, with a much diminished homestead Barntar starts from and some more Greater Darkness opposition on his way to the dragon. The actual nature of the dragon might be less predictable than Aroka, although the Bag of Winds trick should still apply - somewhat. Barntar questers might be forced to be a lot more inventive than Orlanth cultists on the Aroka quest, possibly bringing agricultural and stead management technology into a more desperate struggle. There is a good chance that the dragon might have ice powers, the drought being caused by the refusal to release the water from the snows during the shortened agricultural season of the Late Vingkotling Age.

Reawakening the rivers through the Barntar dragonslaying quest might also result in replenishing the soil in a flooding as the result of that quest.

[Joerg]

When it comes to rites of riverine survival through the Great Drought of the Late Storm age and the revival after the Breaking of the World as a side effect of Magasta's great feat, Sky River Titan's self-sacrifice, and the "reversal of the river flows" (which only affected those rivers still connected to the Heart of the Seas and not really the hibernating ones of Kethaela) might be subject of less well-known river rites. Or if known, hidden in river marriage rites, like the Sun Domer one which in all likelihood was learned or taken over from the Zola Fel River Folk, possibly as propitiatory exchange for their irrigation practices which seem to have inherited Pelorian weeder heritage (the Lodrili Ten Sons and Servants, and the Foreman, son of Lodril and the river). (Little surprise there, as the Second Age Sun Dome Templar cult emerged from the Black Eel Weeder territory.)

Outside of this Sun Domer heritage, in the Heortling-descended portions of Saird and further south, there might have been human river folk ancestors of the Durulz, or at least precursors to Durulz rites reflecting earlier rites remembering and re-affirming riverine survival throught the Great Drought and into the bleak PTSD period of the Greater Darkness. The Durulz, and the Newtlings, and possibly some dragonewt or aldryami efforts, and probably some Styx Grotto rites of the Shadow Plateau.

Questing along such riverine survival/revival rites might pick up the fun weird underground bits of Jules Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth, with plenty Hollywood adaptations (and different approaches to reviving the archaic monsters of the deep) to loan from. Variations of this might almost write themselves, but maybe something along this line might be food for the Jonstown Compendium.

(Given my lack of Jonstown Compendium publications so far, I would need to team up with people to actually produce anything. Contact me if interested, or steal the idea as is.)

[Manunancy]

Not sure how it would reflect in myth but one positive point of floods for Esrolia is dumping fertile silt on the fields - sure they've enough water but any extra bit of fertility comes in handy.

Possibly an extra step in a 'revive the rivers' rites where the freed river brings along the fertile earth that got diverted/stolent/hoarded by whoever kept them prisonner. Possibly an impromptu mariage between Water and Earth prisonners and their offspring Silt coming back to grandmama to fertlize her fields. Which would tie in neatly with the esrolian GrandMothers.

Edited April 18 by Manunancy

[Garrik]

Good gracious, @Joerg, did you have all that already written up, or have you been tracking (and side tracking) this reply to my humble question this whole evening? 😀

It will take a couple of evenings to try to palate that and find out ways how it could be brought into play. It's definitely high holy day stuff, or heroquest stuff. A Lankor Mhy answer to an initiate question.

Thank you!

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

Good gracious, @Joerg

I think it was Maus that gave us the expression “my father bleeds history”. Jörg has a little crimson vampire bat handy for when he needs to post.

[John Biles]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

As a result, the Barntar variant of the Aroka myth might be set in a much bleaker post-Breaking of the World Late Vingkotling Age, with a much diminished homestead Barntar starts from and some more Greater Darkness opposition on his way to the dragon. The actual nature of the dragon might be less predictable than Aroka, although the Bag of Winds trick should still apply - somewhat. Barntar questers might be forced to be a lot more inventive than Orlanth cultists on the Aroka quest, possibly bringing agricultural and stead management technology into a more desperate struggle. There is a good chance that the dragon might have ice powers, the drought being caused by the refusal to release the water from the snows during the shortened agricultural season of the Late Vingkotling Age.

Reawakening the rivers through the Barntar dragonslaying quest might also result in replenishing the soil in a flooding as the result of that quest.

Barntar hitches Urox to his plow and they cut ruts into Aroka's tongue, then collect the blood to use as fertilizer.

He severs Aroka's genitals with a scythe for reaping.

 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Garrik said:

Good gracious, @Joerg, did you have all that already written up, or have you been tracking (and side tracking) this reply to my humble question this whole evening? 😀

It will take a couple of evenings to try to palate that and find out ways how it could be brought into play. It's definitely high holy day stuff, or heroquest stuff. A Lankor Mhy answer to an initiate question.

Thank you!

The time signatures show that I put this out in less than two hours - away from my notes and my material, and doing other stuff like walking the dog in between. At times I need someone to ask the right questions to make me sit down and put my ideas through the keyboard.

As a matter of fact, I had vague notes about this as deep background for my planned Holy Country supplement. The strange matter of the death of the Faralinthor Sea and the orphaning of the Kethaelan rivers before the onset of the Greater Darkness, and the consequences for the rivers, the river folk and the merfolk of central Genertela have been troubling me.

If all rivers have a connection to the Heart of the Seas (as indicated by the River Horse cult), thena river's current doesn't end at a junction with a parent river or at an estuary, but it continues through the coastal seas into the oceans, and then into the One Sea below, Zaramaka's realm just outside of the Underworld.

Weak subterranean aquifer connections must count, too - after all, the River Horse also serves all the Praxian Oases. But the case of Faralinthor (who did not return after the Breaking of the World) seems to be different, and so I want myths, pilgrimages and heroquests to reflect that, both for riverine and coastal humans and for the local merfolk, as such things make encounters even if your party is only an innocent bystander to a heroquest like Biturian is in Rurik's Hill of Gold confrontation with the Zorak Zorani Death Lord on his way to Redwood Forest.

 

For a river survival quest into the Underground (not quite the Underworld, but into the Hero Planes) I figure you need to find (and trust) a deep eddy and dive into that, keep diving for an unholy time before emerging in an air bubble in a cave system, in order to have your Journey to the Center of the Earth adventure. Jules Verne and Arthur Conan Doyle (Lost World, not Sherlock Holmes) have laid all the groundwork, so you can simply grab the bestiary for the Monster of the Cave, plant a weird survivor group of humans or Elder Races (not necessarily extant any more, so you can go really wild there for Sense of Wonder), and have an episode on your trip. After undergoing blessings from your river god (and associated deities), possibly other cleansing rituals before doing the mini "Orlanth goes down Magasta's Pool" re-enactment that brings you into this realm of wonders. The rest is good old Pulp adventuring with your RuneQuest characters (or whichever game system you like).

[M Helsdon]

There's a fair bit about Esrolian rivers in Ships & Shores. The Lyksos has its own section in the Periplus, and the volcanic soil spread by the rivers in southern Esrolia is mentioned. 

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/452062/Ships--Shores-of-Southern-Genertela

[M Helsdon]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

The coastal division of the lesser land goddesses in Ships and Shores makes sense, but further inland the regional land goddesses will claim the entirety of the river basins. (Which is beyond the scope of that book, but a mythical map of inland Heortland may have the goddesses in quite different distributions than viewed from the coastline.)

The Heortland Land Goddesses and their inland territory as described in Ships & Shores are derived from the information kindly provided by Harald Smith, from his forthcoming Chaosium Heortland supplement. Their territory lies primarily between the rivers of the plateau.

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Arthur Conan Doyle (Lost World, not Sherlock Holmes)

Although … Holmes and Moriarty take their tumble at the Reichenbach Falls straight into the Underworld and have to find their way/s out of Hell has its appeal. Which of them is Ethilrist? Both?

Edited April 19 by mfbrandi

[AlexS]

Hey @Garrik, thanks for starting this thread – the more spaces we have for sharing thoughts about how Esrolian characters live their lives and generally helping to bring Kethaela into the playable RQG mainstream, the better! And I really hope that @Joerg does put some of the thoughts from this magisterial overview of the mythological avenues that could be explored in a river-centric take on Kethaela into a version of his "planned Holy Country supplement", which would be a fantastic addition to the Kethaelan material that is now coming out from JC authors like @jajagappa, @M Helsdon and @Austin.

On 4/18/2024 at 1:12 PM, Garrik said:

So my new (male) character has farmer background but is interested in the river god

For players interested in river gods in an Esrolian context, I really like the take that Austin has developed in his Sylthi material – there is a summary here of his campaign's 'shape-shifting river thief' PC (who is a follower of the god of the Whitefall, another Esrolian river). However, if you don't want to lean into the whole watery shape-shifting thing, then as Joerg and others have indicated the 'mythical and magical connections between rivers, rain and the earth' can also take you in other directions.

On 4/18/2024 at 1:12 PM, Garrik said:

I think my character has been somehow responsible for irrigation and drainage of the fields

 

I'm working on an cultural backgrounds resource with a couple of co-authors, and for character generation we have gone down the route of associating Esrolian adventurers' Houses (the equivalent of Clans) with different 'cultural traditions', each venerating a particular mix of deities and specialising in a particular range of occupations, linked to different social, regional and/or ecological niches. Here is the summary version of what we call the 'River-Blessed Earth' cultural tradition:

In terms of the intersection of gender roles, occupation and cult, Esrolia does offer some challenges for male PCs playing the kind of land-management role you're envisaging. As you can see from the summary above, in our Esrolia anything that involves decision-making in relation to the land is in the domain of the women – so male farmers would not be negotiating with powerful river spirits (though they might propitiate them) or managing irrigation systems (though they will probably be the ones doing day-to-day operation and maintenance).

Given that, we realised that male members of river-oriented Houses needed some more scope for agency, particularly in adventuring-friendly roles. We decided that in addition to the seagoing marines (very well described by Harald Smith in his Nochet adventurer backgrounds) Esrolia actually has a network of 'river patrol' units with Engizi as their patron deity, which we have included as an option for adventurers' backgrounds.

Something like this makes sense in terms of Esrolia's vulnerability to attackers who can use its great waterways to travel far inland (as evidenced by the brutal pillaging of the upriver city of Oxnos by Wolf Pirates who had rowed past Storos and up the Shining River). Plus, it would be MGF to have the occasional elasmosaur or giant crocodile swim upriver from the Bay and scare the daylights out of peaceful riverside villages in the Esrolian heartland, necessitating an urgent call-out for the Engizi guard...

On 4/18/2024 at 1:12 PM, Garrik said:

The location is right next to the river Lyksos, near Nochet.

In terms of your adventurer's role in the community, it will be helpful to think about exactly where he is from. This is because because Esrolia is basically a collection of city-states and each will have its own distinctive relationship with the river, which will be reflected in local mythology and also in the options for socially valued roles within that relationship.

The course of the Lyksos runs through the territories of New Crystal City, Valadon and Monros before it reaches Nochet. New Crystal is a former Elmal holy site re-engineered by Belintar at the place where he forced the junction of the Lyksos with the Engizi River, Monros is famously associated with Vinga as well as Ernalda and Valadon is a focus of the worship of both Esrola and Argan Argar (patron deity of the next-door Shadow Plateau, which is topped by Esrola's Throne).

It's worth noting that in addition to her more celebrated weddings to Argan Argar and Faralinthor (the latter of which is highlighted by Joerg above), Esrola was the focus of a wooing contest between Heler and Elmal into which Engizi could easily be inserted – so that central region of the Lyksos/Engizi Valley around Valadon could be a good location if your PC's story arc would benefit from a possible link between Esrolian river/land mythology and the political rivalries between Houses from different cultural traditions.

If your adventurer is actually from the city territory of Nochet itself, then you have a wealth of resources to draw on. As Martin Helsdon says,

On 4/19/2024 at 8:55 AM, M Helsdon said:

There's a fair bit about Esrolian rivers in Ships & Shores.

I really can't recommend this highly enough; Ships & Shores is one of the very best publications on the JC for a whole host of reasons, but for you it might be worth getting for the material on the Lyksos and Nochet alone (in just a couple of pages, the Lyksos section references everything from myths of Engizi and Esrola to the types of goods carried by river traders to the sight of crocodiles sunbathing along the river's banks).

You also can also find an amazing range of resources to draw on in Harald Smith's Nochet city guide, particularly in the material on the agricultural settlements and slum communities that line the Lyksos as it approaches the city, and the temples and Houses of the riverside neighbourhood of Tershis in Nochet itself – plus of course lots of information about aqueducts (and cisterns, and bath houses, and sewers), if you do decide that should be part of your character's background.

Hope this helps!

[Garrik]

OK, tried to palate all the info all of you have given. But I'm overwhelmed.

You're suggesting that I buy 50$ worth of books to gauge for few snippets of information. The books surely are interesting and beautiful. But in this case, I just have to have faith in my GM, that he provides the necessary info.

I like the idea of Lyksos-Engizi marrying to Esrola. This must have interesting consequences for persons tied to the Lyksos-Engizi river cult.

Some of you are essentially suggesting that male followers of River Gods do not have the type of agency I envisioned for my character. Which of course might be a good reason for my character to leave his community and seek adventure. But I'm talking more about his background than about his future.

There's the key question of what roles men have in Esrolia. All good threads overflow and meander, so let's look into this.

I tried to closely read everything in RQG, the Gloranthan Sourcebook, and the published Cults material (bless searchable PDF's). So the basics, without going into excessive mythical detail, Stafford Library and the Jonstown Library.

Nowhere is it stated that Esrolian males couldn't have cult agency and important roles. They are not political leaders, and they are loyal to and protective of their matriarchs. But men are initiates and priests of the male gods and assume the power such persons and institutions have, especially locally. Surely there are men among the renowned Esrolian heroes, for example architects and crafters. Which could tie into irrigation systems and aqueducts. (Were the Nochet aqueducts Belintar's invention? Or from the time of Panaxles the Architect?)

Even if women govern the land and negotiate about its use, men can easily find roles in the business. This isn't a society without men, or with subjugated men, or a caste society where men would be totally excluded from certain professions. Everywhere there are men, and they have their roles and rights, even if women run the society at large.

So I don't support the idea that a male (person, cult) couldn't have important agency in everyday Esrolia. But the male god/aspect who's mostly active in these everyday activities is of course Barntar.

The Engizi cult (RQG, pp. 75, 292) clearly is river-centric, movement-centric, and in no way tied to agriculture. I'm not saying that it should. I'm asking if a male water god & his followers could have agency in irrigating and draining the fields, or designing and upkeeping the aqueducts. I think they could. It's a minor and seasonal role for sure, but where water rises from Lyksos-Engizi and flows back into him, the cult surely has agency, at the very least a ritual role.

But I think you're right that Lyksos-Engizi is a bad fit for a farmer. It would make my character perhaps uniquely special, and require a lot of soul-searching and myth-spinning. Which would be great, but our game is on the more mundane, traditional-RQ side of the spectrum.

All of this said, my character in the end might look more towards Heler, because he has a powerful connection to the Air rune, some Water, and nothing special in Movement. The river aspect might remain as a connection to his grandfather and family traditions, and as a gateway to him finding the waters above.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

OK, tried to palate all the info all of you have given. But I'm overwhelmed.

Sometimes it can be like drinking from a fire hose instead of a water fountain, but people are trying to be helpful.

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

You're suggesting that I buy 50$ worth of books to gauge for few snippets of information. The books surely are interesting and beautiful. But in this case, I just have to have faith in my GM, that he provides the necessary info.

Again, it is people trying to be helpful, saying "here is where you can find more information". The alternative is to give you the information, which comes back to the fire hose.

On 4/18/2024 at 1:12 PM, Garrik said:

Question: is the coordination mainly social, among humans/mortals (husband and wife, village, priests of different gods)? Or are there examples of locally allied rain/water/earth cults that bring something extra to this marriage/technology of rain, water and growth?

It depends on the culture.

Among Solar folk the Yelm-Oslir marriage ritual explicitly gives the local Solar ruler permission to draw water from a local river for irrigation, so it suits your idea well, if your Adventurer is Solar. Here, the bargain is between the local Solar leader and the river deity themself.

Among Orlanthi, the bargain is between the people and Heler, the god of rains. Here, the chieftain petitions Heler to rain, providing moisture for crops. Sometimes it is Ernalda appealing for help from her husband, Orlanth, to bring storms to provide rain, but this is ultimately through Heler.

Among Praxians, the deities concerned are Thunder Bird and, maybe, Little Brother (Orlanth), so locals petition Thunder Bird to go to the Zola Fel, soak its feathers in water, then carry the water to dry land to water them as rain and make the grass grow again. It is also possible to petition Inora to cause the ground to become covered in frost that melts, or to contact Dew Maiden to cover the grass with dew. In all these examples, people make deals with deities.

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

Some of you are essentially suggesting that male followers of River Gods do not have the type of agency I envisioned for my character. Which of course might be a good reason for my character to leave his community and seek adventure. But I'm talking more about his background than about his future.

Of course they have the type of agency you are looking for. What is stopping you using specialist water magic to draw water from your river and sending it through irrigation channels to irrigate farmland? Don't have the spells? Then go and get them through HeroQuesting. Don't have permission? You are a representative of the river deity, of course you have permission.

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

Nowhere is it stated that Esrolian males couldn't have cult agency and important roles. They are not political leaders, and they are loyal to and protective of their matriarchs. But men are initiates and priests of the male gods and assume the power such persons and institutions have, especially locally. Surely there are men among the renowned Esrolian heroes, for example architects and crafters. Which could tie into irrigation systems and aqueducts. (Were the Nochet aqueducts Belintar's invention? Or from the time of Panaxles the Architect?)

Some people have the conceit that in Esrolia men are pretty much useful. Sure, they are good at muscle-work like fighting, lifting, carrying, making babies, putting shelves up, and picking things off the top shelf, but rich Esrolian women have servants for most, or all, of those tasks. There are things that men can do in Esrolia at the moment, but that doesn't include ruling, for that it definitely women's work. So, sure, men can build things (muscle work and saves having to buy slaves). After all, Lodril's Sons were men who made irrigation ditches and aqueducts, and Lodril is a husband of Ernalda, so why not?

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

So I don't support the idea that a male (person, cult) couldn't have important agency in everyday Esrolia. But the male god/aspect who's mostly active in these everyday activities is of course Barntar.

Barntar is a farmer god, so can dig ditches for irrigation. However, his cultists would not be responsible for major irrigation works, in my opinion, that would be Lodril's Sons or other Builder Deities, with Barntar's little ditches carrying water from the canals to the fields.

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

The Engizi cult (RQG, pp. 75, 292) clearly is river-centric, movement-centric, and in no way tied to agriculture. I'm not saying that it should. I'm asking if a male water god & his followers could have agency in irrigating and draining the fields, or designing and upkeeping the aqueducts. I think they could. It's a minor and seasonal role for sure, but where water rises from Lyksos-Engizi and flows back into him, the cult surely has agency, at the very least a ritual role.

Yes they can have agency, and often do.

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

But I think you're right that Lyksos-Engizi is a bad fit for a farmer. It would make my character perhaps uniquely special, and require a lot of soul-searching and myth-spinning. Which would be great, but our game is on the more mundane, traditional-RQ side of the spectrum.

That could be your One Special Thing.

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

All of this said, my character in the end might look more towards Heler, because he has a powerful connection to the Air rune, some Water, and nothing special in Movement. The river aspect might remain as a connection to his grandfather and family traditions, and as a gateway to him finding the waters above.

Heler spreads his bounty everywhere, causing floods as often as being helpful. Farming often needs irrigation that allows farmers to control the rains, bringing it from we areas to dry areas and avoiding flooding.

 

Edited April 21 by soltakss

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Garrik said:

There's the key question of what roles men have in Esrolia. All good threads overflow and meander, so let's look into this.

Nowhere is it stated that Esrolian males couldn't have cult agency and important roles. They are not political leaders, and they are loyal to and protective of their matriarchs. But men are initiates and priests of the male gods and assume the power such persons and institutions have, especially locally. Surely there are men among the renowned Esrolian heroes, for example architects and crafters. Which could tie into irrigation systems and aqueducts. (Were the Nochet aqueducts Belintar's invention? Or from the time of Panaxles the Architect?)

Yes, males have important roles in Esrolia beyond siring children on the women. They obviously have a lot less agency in the cults of the mother and grandmother, but as obviously they are important in the cults of the husband protectors, and in the providers - Barntar for farmers, Orlanth for herders. They have equal opportunity as sages, crafters, traders, and they tend to provide greater numbers to the military (although not necessarily in military leadership).

According to Harald Smith's Nochet material, the two aqueducts named after Panaxles and Sestarto would date back to the Silver Age when they were one of several features in their contests.

 

3 hours ago, Garrik said:

Even if women govern the land and negotiate about its use, men can easily find roles in the business. This isn't a society without men, or with subjugated men, or a caste society where men would be totally excluded from certain professions. Everywhere there are men, and they have their roles and rights, even if women run the society at large.

So I don't support the idea that a male (person, cult) couldn't have important agency in everyday Esrolia. But the male god/aspect who's mostly active in these everyday activities is of course Barntar.

The main male god in civilized rural activities, yes, and I don't really see much of a role for Vinga Plowwoman in Esrolia. (There are cases of women taking on traditionally male lives e.g. in Albania who become males in almost all aspects - there were some discussions about these in the big Vinga upset about 14 years ago. I don't think any tradition like that would have formed in Esrolia.)

For less civilized activities like herding (sheep), there is Orlanth, also the god of banditry and other such disruptive pastimes.

In urban activities, Lhankor Mhy might be more important, but despite the requirement to wear beards the cult is far from male-only.

3 hours ago, Garrik said:

The Engizi cult (RQG, pp. 75, 292) clearly is river-centric, movement-centric, and in no way tied to agriculture. I'm not saying that it should. I'm asking if a male water god & his followers could have agency in irrigating and draining the fields, or designing and upkeeping the aqueducts. I think they could. It's a minor and seasonal role for sure, but where water rises from Lyksos-Engizi and flows back into him, the cult surely has agency, at the very least a ritual role.

Maintenance of aqueducts and keeping the flow clean definitely falls into the specifics of Engizi. Harald Smith's play-by-forum Nochet campaign had an episode in one of the baths of Nochet where a current of Engizi had to be propitiated, but that entire game had a minor House in Nochet whose speciality was aqueduct and sewer upkeep in its center. Other than the river god, the knowledge god played a role in the supervision and design of the facilities.

Irrigation on the Lyksos seems a bit less likely to me, as it sits in the wind corridor into and out of Dragon Pass, with rain clouds funneled through here and probably regularly dropping some of their bounty, but if you want to play an irrigation and drainage themed game, go for it. Even in Dara Happa, the overseer for irrigation and drainage is the child of the river deity.

3 hours ago, Garrik said:

But I think you're right that Lyksos-Engizi is a bad fit for a farmer. It would make my character perhaps uniquely special, and require a lot of soul-searching and myth-spinning. Which would be great, but our game is on the more mundane, traditional-RQ side of the spectrum.

All of this said, my character in the end might look more towards Heler, because he has a powerful connection to the Air rune, some Water, and nothing special in Movement. The river aspect might remain as a connection to his grandfather and family traditions, and as a gateway to him finding the waters above.

Not everybody works in their calling. The main occupation in rural lands will be farmer, but not everybody will have specialist magic for that. Nor will every farmer need it, as a lot of that farming magic really is community magic, with Bless Crops provided by the goddesses. Plowing is just a seasonal agricultural activity, and other back-breaking work like harvesting or hay-making doesn't have any more specific magic from Barntar than other cults either. Being able to access associate magic from the land goddess might be more important.

Heler isn't much of a farming deity, either - they are more often associated with sheep and shepherding.

Engizi as Sky River Titan has a number of other (less often practiced) myths, including a paternal connection to Artmal and thereby an association to the (Blue) Moon which might be fun to discover.

[AlexS]

OK, it sounds like my statement that “in our Esrolia anything that involves decision-making in relation to the land is in the domain of the women” came out as “Esrolian men have no agency and just take orders”, which was not the intention, so apologies for any confusion.

18 hours ago, Garrik said:

Even if women govern the land and negotiate about its use, men can easily find roles in the business. This isn't a society without men, or with subjugated men, or a caste society where men would be totally excluded from certain professions. Everywhere there are men, and they have their roles and rights, even if women run the society at large.

Of course that’s the case. Esrolian men exercise all kinds of agency in all kinds of domain. But for me the key point is the “domain” bit. Land management is just too tied into the Esrolian goddess complex to be the domain of men.

Irrigation, however, is an interesting variation on this because (as you note above) it’s about bringing Earth and Water together. The land management role here has a focus on negotiation with the spirits/deities of the water – and the usual way that Esrolian societies handle negotiation is through marriage (whether symbolic or literal, permanent or temporary) .

There is no reason why your character couldn’t have been involved in this process – but not as the party that represents the Earth, and instead as the party that represents the Water.

So maybe they were born into a farming family and expected to follow the way of Barntar, but around the time of their Initiation they were drawn to the Water instead and ended up playing the Engizi role in local Esrola worship ceremonies? Then maybe they got more and more into trying to understand the mysteries of water and ended up working on the aqueducts, leaving the plough behind?

19 hours ago, Garrik said:

You're suggesting that I buy 50$ worth of books to gauge for few snippets of information. The books surely are interesting and beautiful. But in this case, I just have to have faith in my GM, that he provides the necessary info.

Actually I think we’re suggesting you buy the books because they are brilliant and will enrich your time spent in Glorantha in general and Esrolia in particular, but only you can know whether that is an investment you are in a position to make right now. In any case, you’re right that it’s not on the player to do the lore-diving, so here’s hoping that your GM has a decent books budget!

[M Helsdon]

On 4/21/2024 at 1:04 PM, Garrik said:

But I think you're right that Lyksos-Engizi is a bad fit for a farmer. It would make my character perhaps uniquely special, and require a lot of soul-searching and myth-spinning. Which would be great, but our game is on the more mundane, traditional-RQ side of the spectrum.

One thing to bear in mind is that farmers exploit everything they can to support their community, and that includes activities off the land (my ancestors two centuries ago were farmer-fishermen and sailors). Farming work is often seasonal, with sowing in Earth Season and harvest at the end of Fire Season, and although there are tasks to perform between those times, utlising other resources is essential. So fishing, whether in a river, or the bay, would provide another source of food and income, and of course the rivers are conduits for moving agricultural produce and perhaps irrigation. So a farmer venerating, say, Barntar, and Lyksos would not be unlikely.

Edited April 22 by M Helsdon

[Ynneadwraith]

44 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

One thing to bear in mind tis that farmers exploit everything they can to support their community, and that includes activities off the land (my ancestors two centuries ago were farmer-fishermen and sailors). Farming work is often seasonal, with sowing in Earth Season and harvest at the end of Fire Season, and although there are tasks to perform between those times, utlising other resources is essential. So fishing, whether in a river, or the bay, would provide another source of food and income, and of course the rivers are conduits for moving agricultural produce and perhaps irrigation. So a farmer venerating, say, Barntar, and Lyksos would not be unlikely.

Definitely agreed, though food culture and agricultural practices can be very weird as well!

Take Malta. Island slap-bang in the middle of the Med. Enormous maritime bounty to be had literally on their doorstep. Yet, for over a thousand years, the people of Malta focus almost entirely on terrestrial agriculture and hunting. Why this is I don't know, but I speculate that it's something to do with the cultural practices of the peoples who resettled Malta after its depopulation in the 9th Century. Perhaps they were from a mostly inland population with little relationship (or expertise) with maritime foodstuffs. Perhaps the seas were dominated by another cultural group, cutting them off from what would otherwise be a fantastic resource. Whatever the reason, traditional Maltese cuisine  just doesn't use fish. Anything you find on the island these days is a product of Italian influence.

You find a similar thing with some of the early neolithic cultures in Northern Europe, where they persisted for generations eating a millet based diet (poor sods) next to the veritable cornucopia of the North Sea.

That's not to say all cultures (or even the majority of cultures) are like that. But it gives you latitude to add as much variety to Glorantha as you please. Want off-season fishermen-farmers, go ahead! Want a caste-like split of fishers and farmers (a la India), go ahead too! Want an ex-caste-like split of fishers and farmers where one or the other has gone extinct, go ahead for that as well!

[Garrik]

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

One thing to bear in mind is that farmers exploit everything they can to support their community, and that includes activities off the land (my ancestors two centuries ago were farmer-fishermen and sailors). Farming work is often seasonal, with sowing in Earth Season and harvest at the end of Fire Season, and although there are tasks to perform between those times, utlising other resources is essential. So fishing, whether in a river, or the bay, would provide another source of food and income, and of course the rivers are conduits for moving agricultural produce and perhaps irrigation. So a farmer venerating, say, Barntar, and Lyksos would not be unlikely.

Fully agree there. I've actually written an article about a RW merchant-farmer family, who in all likelihood were also fishermen. I call them hybrid strategies, and they were much more common in earlier times than many know or believe.

Actually, I find the RQG backgrounds a bit simplistic regarding the setting. OK, there are ways and choices to build your character in many different ways. And indeed this is what I've done. There's just too little discussion about these hybrid cases in the basic texts. A sentence or two would bring in the variety and show the possibilities. But then again I understand how the basic books need to be accessible, clear and not too thick...

[Jeff]

On 4/18/2024 at 6:12 AM, Garrik said:

So my new (male) character has farmer background but is interested in the river god.

The location is right next to the river Lyksos, near Nochet. I think the river swells a lot during/after Sea Season, so its waters will rise on to the fields. Which is both a good and a bad thing. Perhaps mostly a bad thing, since Esrolia typically receives enough rain for cultivation.

The Creek-Stream River is a weird one. I'm sure it gets some flooding, but it never dries up thanks to the Skyfall River. But let's just assume that there is a heavy discharge in Sea Season in Esrolia. I would imagine that there was an ancient flood control system that Belintar rebuilt and rescaled after he created the New River. So let's assume there is a good flood control/irrigation system in place. It might be getting creaky now, with Belintar being gone for a decade and several years of war. 

 

On 4/18/2024 at 6:12 AM, Garrik said:

In practical terms, I think my character has been somehow responsible for irrigation and drainage of the fields. Since Nochet has those aqueducts, he might have been active also there, getting parts of the river to nourish the people. So my character is not a fisherman or a boater, yet still has a meaningful and practical job connected to the river.

That sounds right to me. Worship Creek-Stream River/Lyksos to keep the god happy and keep the water clean and steady. This is going to matter a lot in Esrolia.

On 4/18/2024 at 6:12 AM, Garrik said:

This got me thinking about the mythical and magical connections between rivers, rain and the earth. It seems that rain (Heler) is in the realm of the Storm Gods, rivers are usually allied to the Sea Gods, and earth & agriculture are the realm of the Earth Goddesses. However, making the fields fertile is paramount to all civilized people and requires coordination, and all these cults are necessary in cultivation, in one way or another.

Yep. Remember that the Heler cult is tightly incorporated into the Orlanth Thunderous cult. Creek-Stream River/Lykos is another form of Heler, but one tied to the seas. And all of these are tied into Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses. 

 

On 4/18/2024 at 6:12 AM, Garrik said:

Question: is the coordination mainly social, among humans/mortals (husband and wife, village, priests of different gods)? Or are there examples of locally allied rain/water/earth cults that bring something extra to this marriage/technology of rain, water and growth?

The coordination of these cults is likely complex and surprisingly harmonious. The end user, so to speak, is Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses. She has plenty of lovers, and needs them for fertility. Meanwhile, Orlanth Thunderous/Heler (Heler always works closely with Orlanth) control that rain function, but are associated with Ernalda and the Grain Goddess. And the river god controls the waters, but is connected with Heler and is associated with Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses. We end up with a triad of cults that work closely together.

Does that help?