Conflicting Illuminations? Draconic vs Nysalorean.

[mfbrandi]

54 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

keep the punters coming back and paying their membership fees

The way I would have you see it (caveat emptor), the “classical” Nysalorism (of Cults of Terror) is the opposite of the Church of Scientology: there is no cult hierarchy, no moneymaking machine, just awkward cusses who cannot refrain from asking questions. Oh, and no “secret facts” to sell — there is one “cult secret” and they’ll tell you it right now, for free; you won’t believe it, of course. I imagine a lot of little Socrateses and Wittgensteins running around trying to show the flies the way out of their fly bottles. You get it or you don’t (there is no halfway), and that is all there is to “joining.” No temple, so no tithes. God is dead, so no POW sacrifices. No spells to learn. No rituals to “renew the world”. More time for country walks and carp contemplation. Who could say no to that? Pity you cannot choose to join. There is no moral content — the critics are right about that — but the same could be said of mathematics.

In contrast:

• Today, what we call “Scientology” is in reality a remarkably complex network of ostensibly independent but clearly interconnected corporate entities ... with a centralized bureaucracy and hierarchical structure. — Hugh Urban

And they will try to sell you secret “facts” (already leaked) and “religious technology” — anyone with an open chequebook can join. Presumably, this makes it a bit more like a “real religion” and more like an RQ cult. I guess the Empire wants illumination administered by something resembling the CoS. Maybe that is why they end up with so many loonies. Just how flaky is their “standard tech”? Sevening as going Clear? Jar-eel as Operating Thetan?

We could see the CoT — and the Empire? — as pretending to institutionalise the “dark side” — the Church of L Ron Sith Lord? — to milk funds from the libertarian right? What is the political complexion of Lunar “liberation”?

• The liberated thetan could even freely create a personal paradise, populating it with heavenly beings and infinite pleasures at will. ... As such, the thetan who truly realized his power to create and destroy universes would in effect be "beyond God" ... The thetan has been deceived into worshipping such a God by mainstream religion and so forgotten its own godlike power to create and destroy universes. —  Hugh Urban: The Church of Scientology: A History of a New Religion

I guess that would fit many fans’ image of a Gloranthan power-tripping illuminate in her pomp. I like to imagine those who want to get this from illumination as being as delusional as Dekko.

Still, it is a good excuse to listen to some Chick Corea.

[mfbrandi]

38 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

“I’m one with the Cosmos.”
“No, I’m one with the Cosmos!”
*they fight*

They are the superheroes.° Superheroes always fight when they meet. (It is a cosmic law or something and definitely not a cheap genre convention.)

The lone Pythonesque dissenter who cries, “I’m not” — there’s your »cough« true »cough« illuminate. No superpowers, though.

———————————————————
° “Super” used to be “psy. per.” — but that just wasn’t as catchy.

[mfbrandi]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:17 PM, Malin said:

That being said, what do y'all feel about the source of Illumination? Does it matter? Can people smell the type? Is there no type, just different schools teaching different traditions (the Sevening Path vs Draconic Consciousness)? Does it matter once you're powerful enough?

<heresy>
If substantially different schools of illumination are wanted, just subset the “illumination abilities” available to them? Declare it false that cosmic insight is what generates the superpowers — they come from the various disciplines taught by the schools, not the basic “gotcha” of it is all one/none. Although everyone likes to think their power comes from their Grasp of the Truth™ (always a prestige item), they are usually wrong about the source of their power and their grip on the truth.
</heresy>

[Darius West]

Nysaloreans are transcendental.  They say they aren't but they are.  They say that they can refute all contradictions, but they can't.  Rashoran couldn't even convince the Unholy Trio not to destroy him, but he tried to teach everyone that Chaos could be reconciled.  He keeps coming back to repeat the same mistake.

Draconic Mysticism is immanent.  They aim to become Dragons, which are immensely powerful BEINGS.  The ritual of the sacred utuma is their way of cutting their ties to external things that can be used to stunt their growth towards Dragonhood.  The Dragon IS the cosmos. 

[Whizbang]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

"I'm one with the Cosmos."
"No, I'm one with the Cosmos!"
*they fight*

Perry Bible Fellowship

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Rashoran couldn't even convince the Unholy Trio not to destroy him

Who says she tried? There is nothing to fear, after all; which is to say, there is no reason to fear nothing.

Were the forty million years before thy coming intolerable to thee? Not less tolerable to thee shall be the forty million years to come!

[scott-martin]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:17 PM, Malin said:

That being said, what do y'all feel about the source of Illumination? Does it matter? Can people smell the type? Is there no type, just different schools teaching different traditions (the Sevening Path vs Draconic Consciousness)? Does it matter once you're powerful enough?

IMG the real answer is that MGF is more easily achieved through multiple interlocking polarities of consciousness than a single ultimate convergence. When all the schools get along, the world melts in a cloud of smooth creamy butter. That's true on some level. But when multiple powerful people compete or come into conflict, you get the epic drama of the soul. For some powerful people the trivial distinctions are the most infuriating because that's the only thing left keeping you from that cloud of butter. Others get pulled in by accidents along the way and now they're stuck in it.

Alan Watts has the great line, "you know how gurus hate each other, they're always putting each other down." Whatever the hypothetical cosmic truth might happen to be, when you give two gurus in your game a reason to hate each other, the game is going to go interesting places. When the players are tired of that, they'll move on.

So let 10000 schools and 10000^10000 conspiracies knit the world together.

 

[Ali the Helering]

19 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The lone Pythonesque dissenter who cries, “I’m not” — there’s your »cough« true »cough« illuminate. No superpowers, though.

Surely that is Mastery to the absolute in Refutation, though?

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Surely that is Mastery to the absolute in Refutation, though?

Well, we wouldn’t want to become the sort of person that thinks a denial is a refutation, would we? We might then be tempted to go into politics!

[mfbrandi]

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

utuma is their way of cutting their ties to external things that can be used to stunt their growth towards Dragonhood. The Dragon IS the cosmos. 

Hmm … on the other hand:

• This dismemberment, called utuma in dragonewt philosophy, is the result of the Grand Ancestral Dragon’s willingness to accept the duty of entanglements, which his actions had brought about and resulted in his full integration into the world. By dying, he re-entered the world to fulfill his duties.
  — Prosopaedia: Ancestral Dragons (PDF, p. 6)

Utuma is the result of the one thing, and it results in the other.

So in the case of the Grand Ancestral Dragon, utuma seems to be working in the other direction: ties = entanglements, and these are accepted; the ties cut are between one bit of the dragon and another bit of the same dragon; the entanglements accepted are between the dragon and the world — one cannot be integrated into oneself, surely? Of course, one could say that once the dragon bits were integrated into the world, the duty was discharged, all ties to the world cut — but then where is the dragon, with its body parts, entangled (Cosmos) or all ties cut, nowhere at all (Void)? Immanent or transcendent? A worry for the “schoolmen” only?

A serpentine being torn apart and stitched into the fabric of the world so that it might function properly — who could that be? Ah, yes, the Devil. Dragon stands for Cosmos? Sure, why not? But for Chaos, too — after all, there is no difference. The Golden Void told me so, and s/he wouldn’t lie … right?

My favourite metaphor (naturally):

• The All = Cosmos = The Universal Set (which doesn’t exist)
• The Void = Chaos = The Empty Set (which is a subset of every set)

😉

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Well, we wouldn’t want to become the sort of person that thinks a denial is a refutation, would we? We might then be tempted to go into politics!

Well, thank you for that very important question!  Let me answer it by delivering fifteen pre-scripted sound-bites with no relation to it.....

[John Biles]

In the case of different schools having different abilities, I just think of it as a mountain where the top is the same, but there are multiple roads up the mountain.

'Illumination' means you reached the first roadstop, not the mountain top.  If you do reach the top, you're gone, you've ascended, become one with the mayo or whatever.

If you're illuminated and still here, then you haven't finished becoming illuminated.

You can still screw up (and you probably will).

 

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Hmm … on the other hand:

• This dismemberment, called utuma in dragonewt philosophy, is the result of the Grand Ancestral Dragon’s willingness to accept the duty of entanglements, which his actions had brought about and resulted in his full integration into the world. By dying, he re-entered the world to fulfill his duties.
  — Prosopaedia: Ancestral Dragons (PDF, p. 6)

Utuma is the result of the one thing, and it results in the other.

So in the case of the Grand Ancestral Dragon, utuma seems to be working in the other direction: ties = entanglements, and these are accepted; the ties cut are between one bit of the dragon and another bit of the same dragon; the entanglements accepted are between the dragon and the world — one cannot be integrated into oneself, surely? Of course, one could say that once the dragon bits were integrated into the world, the duty was discharged, all ties to the world cut — but then where is the dragon, with its body parts, entangled (Cosmos) or all ties cut, nowhere at all (Void)? Immanent or transcendent? A worry for the “schoolmen” only?

A serpentine being torn apart and stitched into the fabric of the world so that it might function properly — who could that be? Ah, yes, the Devil. Dragon stands for Cosmos? Sure, why not? But for Chaos, too — after all, there is no difference. The Golden Void told me so, and s/he wouldn’t lie … right?

My favourite metaphor (naturally):

• The All = Cosmos = The Universal Set (which doesn’t exist)
• The Void = Chaos = The Empty Set (which is a subset of every set)

😉

This seems fair.  I haven't read that Prosopedia entry. 

I suppose I always assumed that the main reason for the sacred utuma ritual was so non-dragons wouldn't make a suit out of your past skin to hijack your magic.  I exp[lained it differently.  I can't quite see how the prosopedia entry gets you out of the bind of someone wearing your skin.  If you accept entanglements, then why the hell shouldn't they wear your skin?

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I haven't read that Prosopedia entry. 

The Prosopaedia entry could be wrong — or at least open to dispute. Pretty much every idea in Glorantha Studies seems to be an “essentially contested concept.”

[RicKaySi]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:17 PM, Malin said:

What about conflicting sources of Illumination? If you are, for example, Draconically Illuminated, would a Lunar/Nysalorean Illuminate sense/see you as one? And in reverse? I remember reading (probably somewhere on the Well of Daliath) that there were subtle differences, and that Nysalorean Illumination tended to create a mythical opposition if you pushed too far and hard into it, like could happen if you heroquest too hard and suddenly have yourself a Nemesis. While on the other hand, Draconic/Mystical Illumination was more balanced within the individual. and since it often strived towards detachment from the world in a more mystical way, it didn't create the same sort of opposition because you contained your enemy within yourself. I wish I could remember where I read it though...

...

I think the way I see it is that Illumination is the same, but how people teach it matters. Just like some gods have many names, but the core is the same. Yelm or Shomash? Depends on where you are. So, in my view, someone can get, for example, Draconically Illuminated and then decide to use that to change the world instead of finding their own balance and striving towards a higher form of life with Right Action and so on. In that case they would absolutely affect the world in the same way as a Nysalorean Illuminate and their own dark/light shadow.

Another thing, I know the forum is rather loud about their Argrath views, but what do you think? Was he a Draconic illuminate or a Nysalorean one? I can see arguments for both.

Agree with you that Illumination could be a "many names, one Truth" situation. I think in The Coming Storm there's even an example of being Illuminated just by visiting the Green Age of Genert. Its verdancy just wipes away your cares based in difference and fear.

But reading the replies it looks like there's really good grounds for treating the two as distinct, with potential for them to be reconciled by only truly exceptional individuals. So why not both? Being an Illuminate doesn't seem to make someone inherently any smarter, just changes their habitus/paradigm/worldview, with any advantages dependant on the individual. For every Arkat, Palangio, Lokamayadon, Sereden(-maybe?) there must be a million unremarkable Illuminates. If Illumination doesn't make the Illuminate immune to fear of rival paths to this coveted state of being, or inherently knowledgeable of the other pathway, or immune to plain old bad rationalisations, then there's not necessarily a reason to assume an Illuminate isn't incredibly nitpicky about which is the best way to become Illuminated, being vain or protective of their rebirth's parentage.

Regarding Argrath, delving into non-canon/campaign utility for a minute, this whole debate could be a very helpful way of "selling" your campaign's Argrath as the real deal by having him be the very rare instance of someone verified as both kinds of Illuminate - by both a Draconic Illuminate and a Nysalorean. 

This Draconic verifier could even be the latest version of Sheng Seleris - who we know Argrath will work with eventually and who might have received Draconic Instruction when he was enslaved by, then became master of, Kralorela.

For the Nysalorean verification a writer could end up going very weird/ominous to fit the prophesised devastating final phase of the Hero Wars. Maybe a Chaos champion recognises Argrath's potential as destroyer and lets him pass unmolested (like Wakboth finding Gark pleasing to him and sparing him). Or Lunar exiles/madmen seeing Argrath as the "true" reincarnation of Sedenya/Rashorana/Nysalor/Gbaji/Arkat/the promised White Moon, and making pilgrimage to find him (especially after he starts to gain ground in the war). The Mad Sultanate could make an appearance to fill both roles.

When both parties are in his camp and seem to agree he is what they say, and what the others say about him, then it makes his claim to being transcendent seem more real.

[Exubae]

I produced a piece on Jonstown which explored the more Eastern view of Enlightenment: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/420584/the-way-paths-of-enlightenment. It contains rules for handling multiple paths, also has some martial arts stuff and a campaign kick off point for Kralorela. 

[davecake]

Historical changes to the Illumination rules, summarised. 

Illumination is an experience. A profound one, that changes the worldview and interactions with the world of the one who experiences it, generally permanently. In this respect, it has something in common with shamanic awakening, divine initiation, or sorcerous mastery - it opens the one who experiences it to new magical abilities and a new way of experiencing the world, and there are some immediate consequences but it is also the beginning of a long process of learning more ways to use it, and potentially opening up further possibilities. It is also as unlike those other experiences as they are unlike each other, maybe more so. It is subtler, more inward focussed, harder to explain and communicate. Its direct magical effects are few, and mostly internal, but it’s real significance is how it interacts with other forms of magic (and given we know about it mostly in the divine magic dominated areas of Central Genertela, we care about, and know about, it’s potential interactions with divine magic the most). Though we know other more distinct magic is possible - Red Goddess magic requires Illumination but has aspects of spirit magic, sorcery, and rune Magic (in that it requires initiation). 

There are basically four big changes to the understanding of Illumination as presented in The Lunar Way that distinguish how it was presented in RuneQuest 2 (Cults of Terror) and to a lesser extent RuneQuest 3 (Dorastor Land of Doom, with some extra notes in Lords of Terror), though actually they were all introduced in HeroQuest Glorantha.

First, it has gradually been described as having a broader range of applicability. In RQ2 it was known to Rashoran, Nysalor, Arkat, and the Red Goddess, with Arkat and the Red Goddess having learnt it via Nysalor (and Rashoran being a deity in the God Time, of no known direct relevance to mortals). In RQ3 it was broader - known in Peloria, but also in Kralorela, Ralios, Jrustela and Vralos. The mysterious Near Ones or Friends of Pamaltela are mentioned for the first time. Many of these are clearly offshoots of one of the prior entities, but not all are, at least obviously, we might even be skirting on The God Learners Secret (or at least, A God Learners Secret) with the mention of Jrustela. The mention of Kralorela might just be a reference to Rashoran as allegedly Eastern, but more likely that this is the first inkling of draconian thought (clearly linked with mysticism in Cults of Terror) as having fundamental links to Illumination. By the Guide to Glorantha both Illumination and draconic consciousness are clearly identified as forms of mysticism, and in HeroQuest Glorantha it is made clear that Illumination, EWF draconic consciousness, Kralorela draconic mysticism, Vithelan mysticism, the Cult of Silence, some God Learners (the Middle Sea Empire strongly suggests the Malkioneranists), are all game mechanically the same, and also considered the same by “many Gloranthan scholars’. So we can assume that eg the Order of Day, or Arkati Wizards, recognise that Kralorelan draconic mysticism, and the EWF as descended from it, and that the rules for the most part are the same. 

Second the practical abilities of Illumination are separated and not all gained automatically. In Cults of Terror, there was a list of six benefits of Illumination, all were gained immediately on Illumination, and all were 100% reliable. The cumulative chance of Illumination is conceived of as an Illumination skill, or of any relevance once Illumination is attained. RQ3, in Dorastor Land of Doom, says that may have different powers (though saying the majority of Illuminants have all powers but the ability to Illuminate others), or powers of differing reliability (they might be automatic, or might need a successful Illumination skill roll (which is likely to be low, as no means of teaching it are available other Riddles), and mentions that the powers are ‘in order of most to least common’. It also mentions that some Illuminates may have entirely different powers, without giving any hint as to what they might be. In HeroQuest Glorantha, this is scaled back significantly - in stead of ‘most Illuminates possess powers I-V’ it becomes ‘most Illuminates possess one or more of powers I-V’. So we have a version where Illumination grants you potentially only a few powers, and they may be learned in ways that require a skill roll, or ways that are automatic (though the default seems to be a skill roll is required). For the most part this seems to be intrinsic to an Illumination school, but Illuminates may not even recognise they have an ability until they try to use (which they may never have a reason to do). This makes it clear that the different schools of Illumination do have real, significant game differences, it leaves open to what extent an Illuminate may gain abilities beyond those known to their school, and how. I’m inclined to say that they can learn abilities known to other schools, but it is very rare, as Schools of Illumination are already very rate. But we know there are rare 8ndividuals with knowledge of more than one form (including Argrath, who is known to have studied both draconic and Arkati forms). It seems a thing that Player Characters might do. 

Third is expanding the list of standard powers. It’s arguable that the list of powers changing is just a rules construct - that the changes are in response to different things (especially Runic connections) being explicitly represented in the rules, rather than a change in how we understand Illumination  Six powers are listed in Cults of Terror. HeroQuestGlorantha adds one - the ability to combine Incompatible Runes (though this ability is fairly rare). It also generalises from the ability to learn Nysalor Riddles to the ability to Illuminate Others, noting that it varies by teacher. RuneQuest Glorantha adds the ability to overcome Runes and Passions, allowing Illuminates to act against their core personality traits and motivations, and makes this ability, and the ability to combine Opposing Runes, the most common abilities of Illuminates after the Secret Knowledge (which has never had game rules). 

Fourth  is teaching and relevant skills. Illumination is attained by rolling a successful Illumination roll at Sacred Time. In RQ2 the Illumination roll was simply the number of Nysalor Riddles answered. In RQ3 this was clarified to be treated as a special skill - like other magical skills it had a 0% chance, until a circumstance gained the first 1%, unlike other skills it did not even get characteristic (Magic) bonus, and cannot be changed by experience or training, so despite being treated as a skill it is effectively the same chance as in RQ2 (though as a skill, it’s implicit that it might be improved by circumstances). This is somewhat muddled by stating that other teaching methods exist, and that the methods of learning to tech these other methods might include study or long meditation, but not what those methods are (presumably not standard experience or training, but other methods of teaching, such as individual tuition plus long meditation). So Illumination is likely to be low and slowly gained for schools such as Kralorelan or East Isles schools, and especially anyone not actively seeking Illumination, though potentially a Lunar Nysalor enthusiast might have the opportunity to meet teachers knowledgeable in potentially dozens of Nysalor Riddles in a relatively short time. The Nysalor Illumination presented in The Lunar Way changes this dramatically. Once the initial Illumination skill is obtained (which can be done by answering a single Riddle, but also by many other means, including a Madness spell), the skill begins at Magic bonus plus Moon Rune/5. A base skill of ~20% would not be surprising for a typical Lunar initiate. So even if nothing else is changed after that point, and the character is not actively seeking Illumination, it typically t might lead to Illumination with a handful of years. In previous versions of the rules, a character who had only experienced a Riddle or two could likely go their entire life without Illumination, with just 2% a year, but this is very unlikely with a 20%, or even 10%, chance - this is a dramatic change to the game world. And if a character is actively seeking Illumination, they will find it not too hard to find - first, it may be lea4ned and trained like any other skill. The chance for Illumination may be Augmented with a Meditation roll or Moon Rune. And it can be further increased, though at some real risk, by spells such as Madness, Mind Blast, or the mysterious Ray of Piercing Truth (we literally know nothing else about this spell, and it may be an editing error). And of course, Lunar schools of Illumination can be expected not only to  teach Illumination, and Meditation, but in addition to expose the student to multiple Riddles. This change, that Illumination should no longer be considered a rare attainment even within the Empire, but instead should be considered routinely attainable by any Lunar citizen who desires it, is a big change. And it makes Illumination much more common even to others - an East Isles or Kralorelan mystic student, once they have been accepted by a teacher and been exposed to mystic, might expect their significantly increased base chance and the opportunity for increases through training and Meditation to make the attainment of Illumination a practical expectation, rather than something very rare. This is slightly off put by the idea that they are likely to start with a lower number of usable abilities (for an involuntary Illuminate, likely only the first three, maybe not even all of those), but it is a dramatic difference for Lunar characters especially. 

[John Biles]

Given the Lunars have a lot of Illuminates, easier illumination in the right circumstances makes sense to me.

And I really like the set of abilities, to which you can easily add.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 6/17/2024 at 9:54 AM, davecake said:

This change, that Illumination should no longer be considered a rare attainment even within the Empire, but instead should be considered routinely attainable by any Lunar citizen who desires it

I think your conclusion is a little bit too fast.

 

But there is a variable I don't have to conclude that a lot of people are illuminates : To become illuminate, you "need" to answer riddles.

You demonstrate, and I agree, that answering riddles and then triggering (?) the illumination is easy. People have "just" to train enough skills, "just" to augment their rolls, and ... it is done).

But to answer riddles... you must have someone who give you the opportunity to ask the riddle. And that's point is important :

Do I need, as leader of a great empire, a large number of people who are able to do/say/decide  a lot of "improbable" things ?  (aka not included in my government laws / state cults restrictions)

Managing a people of illuminates seems to me more "entropic", "hazardous" than managing a chaotic troop. You can't anticipate, you can't force them, you even can't be sure that you successfully convince them to do what you want

Personaly, knowing how "easy" it is to offer illumination with the riddles, I would select those who will be tested. Those I (or my devoted officers) trust with a relative confidence, even after the illumination. And if I discover I'm wrong, the guy doesn't act as I want, becoming a danger for my power (and my divine mother's power too), it will be easy to remove my mistake.

Eliminate a part of few choosen is easier than eliminate a part of a crowd of choosen.

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think your conclusion is a little bit too fast.

Agree with this - Illumination has to be less achievable than, say, a bachelor's degree.

Also, I wonder just how much the Lunar rulers are in favor of widespread Illumination among the populace. It's great within the religious and political power structures, but do you really want large swathes of the general population to learn that they're free to disobey whatever rules they don't agree with? We know that unchecked Illumination practices lead to all kinds of troubles. Surely it's better to keep a lid on things?

[Malin]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Managing a people of illuminates seems to me more "entropic", "hazardous" than managing a chaotic troop. You can't anticipate, you can't force them, you even can't be sure that you successfully convince them to do what you want

And this is why you send out your riddles among your enemies to try to make them see the (red) light faster... much better than working at home.

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do I need, as leader of a great empire, a large number of people who are able to do/say/decide  a lot of “improbable” things?

Yes. 😉

These days, the common or garden illuminate has the following “powers”:

• SECRET KNOWLEDGE — also known as tolerance, freedom from bigotry, lack of egregious redneckery
• OVERCOME RUNES or PASSIONS — relaxed and reasonable, not a slave to “reflexes” and stereotyped behaviour
• EMBRACE RUNIC OPPOSITES — flexibility of mind

To us, most illuminates should look like civilized people. Better them than some crazed militia trapped in its own hypertraditional-mindset echo chamber, no? If you want to run a forward-thinking, urban empire of tomorrow, you want as many illuminates as you can get, no? Aren’t the uptight, shoot-first-ask-questions-later Orlanthi the ones who are hard to govern? Is the way to run a “great empire” to keep the people ignorant and inflexible? How would we ever get anything new done?

Doesn’t an obsession with controlling the people cause revolutions? Much better to feed them, educate them, and trust them. People who ask questions are not troublemakers. People who think they have the answers are the ones you want to watch out for. (Of course, by saying that, I am myself subject to the “never trust a hippy” rule.)

Edited June 18 by mfbrandi
Of course, before Pendragon, everybody/nobody had powers 2 and 3.

[Snugz]

I've played it so far that illuminates can normally sense (after some unspecified period of observation/contemplation) who is illuminated, but usually just learn that the other person is a "mystic" unless the person follows the same broad tradition of mysticism (e.g. Arkati) in which case that much may be clear, and if they both follow a more specific school (e.g. Arkat Chaosbane) then they might recognise this.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

To us

who is "us" (there are a lot of different way of politic system, even now); but yes if "us" are citizen of democratic countries, where people can vote and choose their leader.

You just confirm what I say : if I'm an emperor, an autocrat, I don't want citizen that can /want vote to decide who will take my throne in few years. I want people who follow, who obey (to clarify : I = not the guy behind his computer, but the emperor) I will use all the options to keep my people in its place, not mine (violence, manipulation, propaganda, etc...). The red emperor, is red like, some previous empires, and some today who present themselves as emperor too , doesn't they ?

Edited June 18 by French Desperate WindChild

[davecake]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:44 PM, Exubae said:

I produced a piece on Jonstown which explored the more Eastern view of Enlightenment: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/420584/the-way-paths-of-enlightenment. It contains rules for handling multiple paths, also has some martial arts stuff and a campaign kick off point for Kralorela

I’ve also got material on Eastern Enlightenment on the JC, it’s in the first of our East Isles books, and includes some martial arts stuff. More based on the East Isles material in Revealed Mythologies, does not touch on Kralorela (but does include Vormain, and mention of Nysalor and the Lunars. I’ve tried to keep it as closely compatible with the material in The Lunar Way (it was written quite a while, but I have the 2018 draft material and fairly little changed with respect to Illumination). Trying to make a framework compatible with the official rules was a fairly big priority for me.