Bag of Holdings

[Lloyd Dupont]

Just finished working on a magic system for an upcoming game with some friends.

It has everything I can think of as cool and with "well balanced" power (as in, feels good to me, who can do what, from skill stats and not just from the GM withholding powerful spells).

Anyway, it has everything but... Bag of Holdings!
(Though I do have easy to cast Floating Disk to carry stuff, so players are not left without help)

Thing is, I just don't like Bag of Holding very much (as a GM). It encourages pointless hoarding like in a video game. It's not very realistic. But it could be argued the game is going to be a magic heavy setting (with teleport, travel through universe, all the elemental bolts, etc...) and also that players like them, so what's the deal hey?

So, my question to you... Not to argue with you about the imaginary magic system I created in my mind, but just give me your opinions on Bag of Holdings. And whether you like to play with or without it. As a GM or Player. (I guess as a player, one always like them though, mmmhh... 😅)

[Peter Fitz]

When it comes to pocket-dimensional stuff-carrying mcguffins, I prefer the Portable Hole over the Bag of Holding. It doesn't irk me quite as much as a GM, while still allowing the party to carry around a whole heapin' helpin' o' stuff.

It's less of a fix-all solution because it requires a surface to lay it out on, so it's not a lot of use in combat, and it doesn't just deliver the desired object to the user's hand — they've got to actually climb down into it and find the thing they want. Plus, being relatively fragile, the character has to take measures to keep it safe and undamaged, or risk losing everything inside it in one fell swoop.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Mmm.. this does sound better!
Plus it goes well with Dimension Door being the underlying spell construct!

[Nozbat]

I’m now thinking that I must be a very stingy GM as this rarely is a problem in my games. I like @Peter Fitz’s idea of the Portable Hole in that ..it’s useful but also ..use it at your peril.. Rewards and Jeopardy should go hand in hand.

I recently had a Triptych and two other paintings as well as some reliquaries as treasure which the players chose not to take. They did take the portable money (a fraction of the previous items), some matchlock pistols and muskets and some armour. 
If they had a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding, they would have been rich beyond measure, provided they could have fenced the artwork and reliquaries.

Even in a magical rich world, I’d be undecided about both. It does allow players to bring a whole horde of stuff on adventures, not having to worry about running out of arrows, food, broken armour as well as making off with vast hordes of loot rather than being discerning about what they can reasonably carry. All of those things add to the adventure and unable-to-carry and subsequently hidden loot can be sold to other treasure hunters or can form another adventure to recover what was left behind. The treasure map could be sold two or three times even.

They both are from D&D? Money was so much more important to go up levels (at least it was 35 years ago when I last played it), therefore items that meant all the loot was taken were important. I’m not sure it’s as important in BRP. I like the idea of a player electing to discard rations and water for gold and then having difficulty in getting back to safety without dying of thirst and hunger. The players, in my view, should always be making difficult choices about where and when to use things, bring things, do things. It usually makes the games memorable.

Just another thought.. can you keep people in your Portable Hole? I seem to remember you can and have a vague recollection of some high level D&D character having servants etc in the portable hole. 

[Peter Fitz]

4 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Just another thought.. can you keep people in your Portable Hole? I seem to remember you can and have a vague recollection of some high level D&D character having servants etc in the portable hole. 

You can, but the air in the Hole is only renewed when it is opened. Once upon a time I did some calculations on how long a person could survive in a sealed 10'x10'x10' chamber, but I've long forgotten them. I guess, if you wanted to get really into it, you could also make allowance for the lowering of air volume as the Hole gets filled up with crap.

[Nozbat]

28 minutes ago, Peter Fitz said:

the Hole gets filled up with crap.

So, it started out as a portable toilet..and then got repurposed? I think that the initial design should have maybe included a flush system water closet?

Or perhaps a small undine and a trollkin to eat the waste? But that would use air supply and limit the amount of time the hole could be closed.

(sorry I appear to have gone into Terry Pratchett mode)  

[Joerg]

Maybe think of the item of Holding not as an item but as a creature? An entity that can accommodate stuff from your plane, and which will want to be fed something to open the barrier and accept or release stuff put in there.

[Susimetsa]

14 hours ago, Nozbat said:

So, it started out as a portable toilet..and then got repurposed? I think that the initial design should have maybe included a flush system water closet?

That would actually be useful. In 17th century armies, the troops either dug latrines at their camp sites (requiring time and effort) or spread a large canvas upon which the soldiers could do their business (the canvas was then rolled up and buried). A carpet of holding could serve the purpose and allow the owners to simply open the carpet while upside down to empty the dimensional chamber... And they'd not have to worry about the smell while the carpet was rolled up...

[Ravenheart87]

In one of our D&D campaigns we had a bag of holding that was basically a window to an interplanar cloakroom. You had to pay for storing items, you got a number about the storage place, and recovering items could take several rounds, because the staff had to actually go and find your stuff in a huge storage.

[Kloster]

I'm sorry for the disgression, but reading the title of the thread, I can't stop thinking to Toon's Bag of Many things, that has an infinite capacity, but you don't know exactly what will come out when you try to pick something from it (you want a hammer, but when you miss the roll, you can pick a Formula 1 car, or a pillow...).

Edited June 30 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Jens]

7 hours ago, Susimetsa said:

they'd not have to worry about the smell while the carpet was rolled up...

And it could play double duty as a truly nasty trap for onrushing enemy troops…

[Lloyd Dupont]

I thought about it some more... what's really my beef with bag of holding, really, I wondered to myself?!

Then it all became clear as in a dream.... With a bag of holding one can walk with a warehouse worth of dangerous weapon or treasures! Completely defeat the purpose of merchant's caravans or guards checking you up... Pah!

[Nozbat]

33 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Completely defeat the purpose of merchant's caravans or guards checking you up... Pah!

There will be a lot of unemployed player characters claiming universal credit just to stay alive!!

Highly Magical worlds would change things.. castles are obsolete if you have frequent flyers, spells of mass destruction would make close order infantry a liability etc, etc

If you still wanted to include it you could just limit the size... a clutch bag type that holds your cigarettes and gold lighter to 60kg backpack rather than multi-storey car parks

This may be one occasion when ..size is everything

[Susimetsa]

Indeed, they belong in a high magic setting - and a high magic setting migh well defeat the purpose of trade caravans etc. and work very differently from the historical settings we are aware off. Flying castles, dimensional doors, teleportation etc. It would also affect the political aspects of the setting in many ways.

That's why I'm more of a fan of low magic settings, where the power and potential of magic is limited and can exist in a world that resembles ours to a degree.

 

[Nozbat]

I'd agree with that @Susimetsa.. low magic worlds are what I like too. But then again, I tend to play in alternative earth history, specifically the Early Modern Period. 

Too much magic, in my view, distorts the milieu but I accept that others like it. However, it can distort things, particularly combat. In another recent thread, people were discussing large creatures and using spells to reduce giants (or dinosaurs) ability to hit to a 5% chance. I'd call that gaming it but if its what people want, that's fine.

I just don't like the idea of the strategically placed castle being assaulted by three people, the hardened oak door being transformed into butterflies and a main assault party stepping through a Dimensional door into the underground keep. 

Going back to the original topic, I think it's probably a good idea for high level magic use to have a cost (borrowing from CoC). If practitioners age prematurely, their sanity goes down, they are weak and vulnerable after spell casting etc... that limits the use to important decisive moments. Channeling powers through a mortal body has an impact and it should become visible and possibly deleterious.

So, @Lloyd Dupont.. everything is possible ... but everything in moderation ... would be my view on Bags of Holding and with particular attention to unintended consequences.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Well to ramble some more on the topic, with nothing very significant beyond personal... mmm.... feelings? But still somewhat a reaction for your comments! 🙂

1st I don't think BRP magic systems quite work for high magic, so I made my own! 🙂 (don't we all ^_^)
(it's in the download section! Mythras - Master of Magic!)
Beyond the long list of spells included city or country wide spell, the main... "innovation", I reckon, it's how I did combat spells... mostly flat costing, instead a sort of leveling is what increase the spell power, a little.

Also, I played lot of computer simulation of the Master of Magic world! 🙂 (bac in the days pre-1990 😮 )
Arguably it still missed many things, since it's the mile high view of a Wizard King conquering the world that you get. And each country has like a single wizard (king).

Anyway, finally, I found that many games, including D&D (thought I didn't follow latest Faerun developments) don't make enough world changes (I guess because of the spurious argument that both magic and high levels is rare)... So in my stories, while I stay a bit shy of the magistrial revolution and spell engines, I like to have magic city wide wards, magic house builders guilds and a few other social maginnovation! 🙂

Edited July 1 by Lloyd Dupont

[Videopete]

Bags of Holding/ Hefyt Storage Capacity are staples of fantasy fiction, however, most are not as user-friendly as the ones from D&D, one they tend to be attached to a specific user, and while they have a ridiculous amount of stuff inside, it's often not easy to get what you want out of it.  So here is how I would run it, One it costs a point of power to attune to.  Two, to use it is a skill, Base Chance 2%, failure results in a random item, a critical failure results in the user rolling on a special table to for it. One of those results is getting sucked into Bagland, another result could be you made the bag mad, (for some reason these things seem to have a mind of their own), and it refuses to work with you for a while.  Remember that the character isn't the first to own these things, and they have had previous owners and users.

[Atgxtg]

I mostly don't see a need for bags of holding in most RPGs. In AD&D when things cost thousands of gold pieces and gold was ten coins to the pound you kinda needed something like the bag just to be able to go magic shopping. But in most RPGs you can carry a small fortune pretty easily.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 4:39 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Anyway, finally, I found that many games, including D&D (thought I didn't follow latest Faerun developments) don't make enough world changes (I guess because of the spurious argument that both magic and high levels is rare

I think it's more the case that if they did make the world changes to reflect the magic then it wouldn't be a typical fantasy world anymore. With all the magic in such games, those worlds would probably have a magical equivalent to the Industrial Revolution. You can duplicate a lot of modern tech with high magic. For instance imagine a land where they use animated skeletons to work the fields, and bags of holding to store and transport the grain. That right there would probably eliminate the feudal system.  You wouldn't need lots of peasants to work the fields to feed everybody anymore, so people could go learn other trades. Toss in lots of magical healing and life expectancy shoot way up. So you'd probably wind up with something closer to modern day, but based on magic, then the fantasy setting most games are aiming for. 

 

It could be kinda cool if somebody actually worked through all the effects of magic and create such a society for an RPG.

[Nozbat]

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That right there would probably eliminate the feudal system.

It would likely end up with lots of starving peasants much in the way the Industrial Revolution did. Magic would still be the preserve of the rich and powerful, if we take the example of medieval France, the first and second estate accounted for 4% of the population. There would be land clearances and enclosures, peasant farmers being kicked off land by their landlords to be replaced by a Skeleton workforce. Makes sense if you're a landlord. No more pesky peasants claiming feudal rights about land and tithing, just a servile workforce. Displaced people would move into cities, creating pressures on housing and services. Jobs, if they haven't been replaced by undead automatons, would be difficult to get, with falling wages as people vied to work for less pay to get any job. Guilds would 'close shop', harshly punishing those that were not Guild members from trading or working. Entry restrictions to apprenticeships would be increased and cost more money than the displaced peasants could afford.

Food producers would put up prices as demand increased in cities, just as they did in the real world. With no welfare systems except the 'churches' and Poor Relief, disease, squalor would increase as profit and wealth gets concentrated in the hands of a few wealthy enough to employ magic. If you have no money, you can't pay for magical healing.

So, just as in the real world, 'Luddites' would smash the skeleton workers, a 'Wat Taylor' would organise the starving peasantry in a revolt that threatened the monarchy. Radical Social Reformers such as a 'Thomas Müntzer' would inspire the 'German Peasants' Rebellion, leading to the deaths of 100-300,000 starving, poorly armed and un-magical peasants by an outraged magically fuelled aristocracy. A 'Daniel Shay' would complain about high levels debt and organise a rebellion. Just as in the real world, 'emergency legislation' would demonise the poor and provide justification for further harsh punishment.

I would really see a 'Magical Revolution' as following a similar pattern to the real world Industrial Revolution. The Luddite analogy of new machinery being 'of the devil' is in my view very apt.

I think that a mediating influence might be the rise of the third estate Merchants, who, in the real world Early Modern period, wrested power from the Clergy and Nobility. However, they were as protectionist as the previous feudal regime and many of the rebellions I mentioned above happened under their watch.

Still, it would be a fascinating world to work through but I don't see it really improving the lot of the average person.

I just read John Maynard Keynes who in his 1930s 'Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren' predicted we would work a 15hr week. Those 'magicians' that control the means of production never change, they promise and fail to deliver

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

It would likely end up with lots of starving peasants much in the way the Industrial Revolution did.

Probably worse. No Black Death to increase the wealth of the lower classes, plus if you can magically replace peasants with magical constructs or animated skeletons for a reasonable cost, you don't actually need the easants at all. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Magic would still be the preserve of the rich and powerful,

MAybe. It depends on how rare and expensive it is. 

Look at Glorantha. Pretty much everybody knows a spririt magic spell or two, and magical healing is so common that band-aids will probably never be invented. It's a world where minor scrapes,  paper cuts, and such are just healed up immdiatly for most people. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

if we take the example of medieval France, the first and second estate accounted for 4% of the population. There would be land clearances and enclosures, peasant farmers being kicked off land by their landlords to be replaced by a Skeleton workforce. Makes sense if you're a landlord. No more pesky peasants claiming feudal rights about land and tithing, just a servile workforce.

Yes it's basically the magical version of automation.

But there would be some legal problemss with that. Technically, by feudal law, the serfs do have rights, and can't leave the land. But the nobles don't always follow thier own rules. But the Church might speak up.

Not that is would be all roses for the landholder either. Supply & demand means that without all those peasants to feed you don't need to farm as much, and neither does anyone else, so the food you do farm is worth less. So the landowners might actually become poorer. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Displaced people would move into cities, creating pressures on housing and services. Jobs, if they haven't been replaced by undead automatons, would be difficult to get, with falling wages as people vied to work for less pay to get any job. Guilds would 'close shop', harshly punishing those that were not Guild members from trading or working. Entry restrictions to apprenticeships would be increased and cost more money than the displaced peasants could afford.

Yes, I suspect there would be riots and a massive drop off in the population. You;d probably go from 90% of the population being farms to say 10% (they would still need some farmers to direct the skeletons, tell them what to plant where and when, and all that). So maybe 80% of the pouplation dies off.

But I think what would probably happen is that some of the people would die off and some would devlope new jobs that would arise from all that magic.

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Food producers would put up prices as demand increased in cities, just as they did in the real world. With no welfare systems except the 'churches' and Poor Relief, disease, squalor would increase as profit and wealth gets concentrated in the hands of a few wealthy enough to employ magic. If you have no money, you can't pay for magical healing.

MAybe not. In the real world you still had serfs on the farm to feed. Without them the increased deman from the cities is offset by the reduced demand at the manor. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

So, just as in the real world, 'Luddites' would smash the skeleton workers, a 'Wat Taylor' would organise the starving peasantry in a revolt that threatened the monarchy. Radical Social Reformers such as a 'Thomas Müntzer' would inspire the 'German Peasants' Rebellion, leading to the deaths of 100-300,000 starving, poorly armed and un-magical peasants by an outraged magically fuelled aristocracy. A 'Daniel Shay' would complain about high levels debt and organise a rebellion. Just as in the real world, 'emergency legislation' would demonise the poor and provide justification for further harsh punishment.

It's possible. But keep in mind that unlike machines, skeletons can fight back. So it wouldn't be so easy to smah the skeleton workers if the landowners arm ( and armor) skeleton guards. Especially if the guards are starting at DEXx5% weapon skill, making them better than most peasants. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

I would really see a 'Magical Revolution' as following a similar pattern to the real world Industrial Revolution. The Luddite analogy of new machinery being 'of the devil' is in my view very apt.

Possibly,. But I don't think it would mirror the real world exactly. There are a lot of differences. As pointed out above imagine if the landowers took thier top 0.5% of skeletons (18 DEX for 90% skill) and outfitted them as guards.

The thing that really hurts the lower classes here is that magical replacements are more capable that industrial ones in the early stages. So the might be able to just dispense with the lower classes. You don't need to work the fields, or to load the wagons, or to man the sails, work in the factories, etc, if the magic is good enough, and cheap enough. So they can completely replace any sort of manual labor.

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

I think that a mediating influence might be the rise of the third estate Merchants, who, in the real world Early Modern period, wrested power from the Clergy and Nobility. However, they were as protectionist as the previous feudal regime and many of the rebellions I mentioned above happened under their watch.

Maybe, but I doubt the merchants would get the same chance to rise. Historically they could make money off of trade and the nobles, but that might not happen if there is a magical revolution.

Instead I think the magicians would be the rising middle class. The nobles would need the magicians to make all those magical replacement farmers and laborers, so they would wind up with money, power and influence. Magicans would need to train other magicians to keep things going. And if you are using animated corpses as a workforce, then you will need to maintain a supply of replacements, which in the long run would be good news for the peasants. Alo much like with automated checkouts, skeletons aren't all that smart and don't notice (or care) if someone steals or not. So they would still need some workers-unless intelligent magical constructs are a thing. 

 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Still, it would be a fascinating world to work through but

Yeah it could be a strange place.

I remember a few times our old D&D group would discuss just how much the magic in that game should have altered the world. Castles and fortifications aren't worth the cost when you got flight, teleportation etc. You don't need judges and judges if you can magically divine  the truth (assuming you can trust the clerics, which was always my sticking point). Life expectancy would shoot up with all that magical healing, ability to curse disease. Things like ownership and succession would get a lot trickier with the ability to raise the dead. They would probably have to put in somr sort of waiing peroid before inheritance, and maybe even a statue of limitations for putting in a claim to get your property back. Otherwise some joker might resurrect some King from 500 years ago (ah relics) and start a civil war.

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

 

I don't see it really improving the lot of the average person.

Oh, I suspect it would. Just like how technology has improved the standard of living for the average person in the real world. It just that it would be a rough ride to get to that point, and it would take awhile for the good stuff to filter down to the masses. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

I just read John Maynard Keynes who in his 1930s 'Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren' predicted we would work a 15hr week. Those 'magicians' that control the means of production never change, they promise and fail to deliver

Yes, but on the other hand, our modern 40 hour week is nothing like the work load of a serf or early factory worker. So things do improve. Just probably not in the ways expected on in the time expected. 

Edited July 29 by Atgxtg

[Lloyd Dupont]

Interestingly, this story does develop on the "undeathstrial" revolution! 🙂
Vainqueur the Dragon | Royal Road

I do some social changes in my game, due to magic. Better yet, my new Master of Magic system does come build in with lots of city spell to give additional ideas! 🙂

[Lloyd Dupont]

Hiya got some thoughts!

Sorry going slowly (having food allergies attack in the last 3 weeks.. 😕 ) 
Anyway as I progress on my story and custom spells (as opposed to spell migrated from Master of Magic) I came with the following 2 nifty facts:

- With the way I "implemented town portal" being a dimensional path that takes a while to walk... (i.e. it's not quite TP to town... it's walk 5 minutes in interdimensional space), a dimensional bag of holding ought to exits

- but I also create a slew of other spells, some of them to protect area from spells. For example, to protect vs dimensional bag! (and teleport, and scry, and others... but I digress). 

So... perhaps yes to bag of holdings... but sometimes you just can get it in, or worst, can't get it out! 😮
Can't wait for the player to discover this unfortunate fact! ^_^ 

Edited August 5 by Lloyd Dupont