Chalana Arroy Penance

[Squaredeal Sten]

A Chalana Arroy initiate violates cult strictures and hands over someone she has Slept to people who will kill them, instead of taking them under the initiate's protection.

The cult spirit of reprisal is engaged, and the initiate falls ill and has no resistance to the disease.

What would you accept as sufficient evidence of contrition and repentance?  A penance?  What things might be suitable penances, in your view? 

 

 

[EricW]

Resurrect the victim- find the body, dedicate themselves to restoring the wrong.

[Ali the Helering]

A bit of a campaign hook here - (Kurosawa or Njal's Saga like, perhaps) hunt down and personally kill each of the perpetrators, never washing their blood from your hands until you return to the altar of your temple.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

hunt down and personally kill each of the perpetrators

Bit of an issue for the CA healer to do that! 

No, for the CA healer who failed to ensure the victim's protection under the Sleep spell, she must hunt down the perpetrators and curse them - formally withdrawing CA's protection from them against disease and healing.

[Ali the Helering]

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Bit of an issue for the CA healer to do that! 

No, for the CA healer who failed to ensure the victim's protection under the Sleep spell, she must hunt down the perpetrators and curse them - formally withdrawing CA's protection from them against disease and healing.

Ah, but they aren't a functioning CA healer whilst undertaking the penance.  They are reduced to 'normality', and may well have to join another cult for the puissance required for their undertaking.  The reason for the washing before the altar is the completion of the penance and the washing away of the 'interim person'.

They cease to be the killer, renewed within the grace of CA.

Alternatively, of course, they might have become one with their inner red-haired woman...

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

but they aren't a functioning CA healer whilst undertaking the penance.  They are reduced to 'normality', and may well have to join another cult for the puissance required for their undertaking.

I don't see this as at all viable or acceptable for CA.

No, I think the penance has to bring justice to the matter fully within the confines of CA's restrictions. And there are tools to do this with besides violence, but they are social tools: shame, humiliation, revelation of truth, etc. Others who hear of such vile deeds might then choose to bring violence against such criminals, but I'd expect a chain of actions: recognition of the deed, exile/outlawry, other vengeance.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Relevant facts: The Slept were trollkin and the killers were elves (Aldryami).   So the Aldryami are unlikely to feel shame or to outlaw the killers.  To them, trollkin are just Eaters,  Uz of any kind are hereditary enemies, with low or zero life prices too.

Therefore  I  doubt that the lapsed Chalana Arroy  will have the support of the Forest in making amends by damaging the killers.

As I see it. the lapsed CA is the one to make amends and it will require great ingenuity to shuffle that off onto another party. 

Not to imply that someone on this forum might not display that ingenuity.

 

Edited July 27 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[SDLeary]

39 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't see this as at all viable or acceptable for CA.

No, but in a personal campaign a certainly dramatic and in your face reaction. One worthy of a Hero, and possible apotheosis, and establishment of a cult. Vengeful Mother. 

SDLeary

[jajagappa]

53 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

No, but in a personal campaign a certainly dramatic and in your face reaction. One worthy of a Hero, and possible apotheosis, and establishment of a cult. Vengeful Mother. 

I.e. The Birth of a Babeester Gor.

[Bohemond]

I want to suggest something very different. Everyone here is framing the issue in a very monotheistic 'religion is about moral behavior' way, which makes sense because we live in a monotheistic culture. Polytheism, especially the ancient polytheisms that Gloranthan religion is modeled on, isn't about proper moral behavior. It's about correct performance of ritual and ritual purity--it's about orthopraxy (proper performance of ritual) not orthodoxy (proper belief). The gods aren't primarily interested in the moral behavior of their worshippers. They are interested in whether their worshippers follow the rules properly, because not following the rules offends the gods and makes the worshipper unclean and unacceptable.

The whole 'spirit of reprisal' concept is Greg's attempt to simulate the way that ancient gods got offended at ritual impurity and caused bad things to happen to the offender.  For the ancient Greeks, doing a ritual incorrectly or breaking one of the gods' rules attracted miasma, a sort of exaggerated bad luck. People with miasma in Greek myth go insane, they commit horrible actions like rape or incest or patricide, they trigger plagues and other natural disasters, and so on. Miasma was contagious, so when someone was perceived to have it, they were ostracized. For the ancient Romans, any incorrect performance of a ritual could trigger vitium, which was similar to miasma, but more focused on the state. If a government official performed a religious ceremony incorrectly, the state would suffer. For the ancient Hebrews, violating Yahweh's rules meant supernatural disaster--the guy who reached out to keep the Ark of the Covenant from falling off a cart was struck dead for violating the ban on touching the Ark, even though he had good intentions. 

It's not a matter of sin and penance--the god can't 'forgive' the offense because the offender is still tainted and the god wants nothing to with them. The holiness of the god cannot abide the stain of the offender. 

How do you get rid of miasma? Through ritual ceremonies--sacrifices, purification, and so on. So the offending CA is dirty--filthy in the eyes of the goddess, who wants nothing to do with him until he is made clean. The healer still has his spirit magic, but his CA divine magic doesn't work because the goddess is offended. He has to go on a journey to some shrine where cleansing is possible. It might be a CA shrine (such as the House of Peace in Jonstown), but maybe not. Maybe it's not a CA shrine at all but the shrine of a deity associated with cleansing--perhaps the River Voices of Zola Fel or other members of the Cleansed One subcult know how to do it. Teelo Norris shrines certainly do...

Now, you could make the case that Chalana Arroy is a bit different from the other gods--there is a more moral element to her cult than to most others. And in some ways Sartarites consider her an idealistic weirdo, offering a more moral-based approach to religion to people who see religion as all about ritual. 

But overall, I don't want Gloranthan religion to feel like modern religion but with more gods. One of Glorantha's strengths as a game world is that it actively tries to take players out of their modern headspace and put them in a very different culture, and I think presenting religion as more orthopractic can play an important role in that. 

[Ali the Helering]

9 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

It's not a matter of sin and penance--the god can't 'forgive' the offense because the offender is still tainted and the god wants nothing to with them.

It isn't a matter of forgiveness, it is the reinstatement of relationship after its abrogation.  Greg was far more shamanic than theistic.

 

11 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

The holiness of the god cannot abide the stain of the offender. 

Worth noting that the meaning of 'holy' is, simply, 'other'.  A difference in quality, not morality.  I am afraid you are sounding a bit of a modern monotheist!😄

 

The key thing is that it is not of her nature to surround herself with violence and death, but rather of health and healing.  The cultist has broken the relationship by taking on a different nature, and the 'penance' is a way of going through the failure of separation and coming out the other side into a new relationship. 

[M Helsdon]

13 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What would you accept as sufficient evidence of contrition and repentance?  A penance?  What things might be suitable penances, in your view? 

Contrition and repentance aren't really the issue: the cultist has transgressed, they are polluted by their deeds, whether by their intent or neglect. It might be argued that in many ways they know their transgression, and this knowledge, consciously or otherwise, has summoned the Spirit of Reprisal.

They need purification and that requires them to undergo the purification rituals of their cult. In many cults this would entail sacrifice but a Chalana Arroy cultists can't sacrifice living things and so the other widespread form of purification in our ancient world involved libations, washing, and bathing, often using sacred water, often from a particular sacred source. Perhaps there are springs sacred to Chalana the penitent must seek out, and undergo very public ablutions and rituals at a sanctuary -  physical cleanliness, and purity of the soul were connected. Perhaps then, they must serve at this sanctuary for a period of time, until they are fully purified. It may be, given their cult, they must work among the sick for a period of time, perhaps seek out sick trollkin, and so this might require them to find a shrine of Xiola Umbar and serve the troll priestess of that goddess! This will entail great risks and perils, but will be the only way they can make themselves pure again.

Edited July 27 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

How do you get rid of miasma? Through ritual ceremonies--sacrifices, purification, and so on. So the offending CA is dirty--filthy in the eyes of the goddess, who wants nothing to do with him until he is made clean. The healer still has his spirit magic, but his CA divine magic doesn't work because the goddess is offended. He has to go on a journey to some shrine where cleansing is possible. It might be a CA shrine (such as the House of Peace in Jonstown), but maybe not. Maybe it's not a CA shrine at all but the shrine of a deity associated with cleansing--perhaps the River Voices of Zola Fel or other members of the Cleansed One subcult know how to do it. Teelo Norris shrines certainly do...

I like the framing of this, and the core idea that CA is now "filthy" or impure. Vengeance is irrelevant, cleansing oneself is totally relevant.

There are two classic paths to ritual cleansing: Water and Fire.

Water might be achieved via the rivers, but the ultimate cleansing is the acid baths of Nelat which even cleansed Orlanth. For a PC-level, though, I'd go with one of the great rivers: Zola Fel, Oslir, the Creek-Stream River, or possibly the Sky River.

Fire might be via Yelm, Enverinus/Oakfed (and the Holy Fire), or the Sky Realm.

In either case, the PC might need to create a "vessel" that could contain their "filth" which they can ritually wash away or burn up. 

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There are two classic paths to ritual cleansing: Water and Fire.

There are rather more, such as Dream Incubation, Blood Letting, Spirit Surgery, and a variety of forms of Exorcism, to name but a few that spring readily to mind...

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

There are rather more, such as Dream Incubation, Blood Letting, Spirit Surgery, and a variety of forms of Exorcism, to name but a few that spring readily to mind...

Can you give an explanation of spirit surgery in RQ game terms?  

I don't see an obvious way to exorcise gross violation of cult rules and norms.  A shaman might verfy whether the CA in question is possessed, of course. but it will turn out not to be so.  This time anyway.   Perhaps I can work that in, a shamanistic ceremony including bloodletting, producing a negative finding on possession.

Blood letting... that has promise, Should I count that as CON loss or STR loss?

 

 

Edited July 28 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Ali the Helering]

23 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Can you give an explanation of sprit surgery in RQ game terms?  

Essentially it would be expressed as another form of exorcism, since it is the cutting away of 'infected' organs etc.  In this case it could be used on the hands that handed the sleeping victim over, 'removing' corrupted bones and tissue from the fingers etc etc.

28 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see an obvious way to exorcise gross violation of cult rules and norms.  A shaman might verfy whether the CA in question is possessed, of course. but it will turn out not to be so.  This time anyway.   Perhaps I can work that in, ashamanistic ceremony including bloodletting, producing a negative finding on possession.

I wasn't meaning that this case was a matter of possession, simply that there are more than two classing paths to ritual cleansing.

You could, however, regard it as a situation where the cultist has allowed their spirit to become contaminated, and that contamination must be purged through a form of exorcism.  

Please note, MGDV because I am a student of the social anthropology of religion and a former advisor on matters of 'indigenous religions' (a post-colonialist euphemism for groups we oppressed and failed to understand) to a Christian denomination.  In my Glorantha shamanism is tremendously varied, as in the RW, and isn't restricted by Harner's 'core shamanism'. 

[EricW]

Illumination would also work :-).

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

There are rather more, such as Dream Incubation, Blood Letting, Spirit Surgery, and a variety of forms of Exorcism, to name but a few that spring readily to mind...

Yes, all good thoughts!

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Essentially it would be expressed as another form of exorcism, since it is the cutting away of 'infected' organs etc.  In this case it could be used on the hands that handed the sleeping victim over, 'removing' corrupted bones and tissue from the fingers etc etc.

I think this has a great opportunity to get into more unusual or esoteric shamanic abilities. Presumably Soul Sight (or similar) can reveal that some spiritual part/organ of the defiled individual is the issue. One approach to address this is that both the shaman and the affected one both Discorporate (probably after lengthy Ritual Preparations that involve gathering and using certain herbs, obtaining pure objects such as gold, holy water, etc). The shaman can then engage in a Spirit Combat with the individual to "cut out" the filth. One could roll randomly on the Hit Location table to determine what spirit part was at fault/removed.

While the hands that cast the Sleep spell might be the relevant part to remove, you might find it to be part of the brain, the eyelids, the yawn of the mouth, etc.

[Geoff R Evil]

There is another angle to consider. All life is sacred to CA. But in this case her initiate chose to place one life form over another, elf over troll. So this initiate has transgressed CA in a very specific way. Penance must show that the CA initiate truly comprehends his or her transgression.

so the penance must be a way to show that any life is all life is truly understood. Maybe a quest to reconcile troll kin and elf, a seeming impossibility, but even one elf and and troll so reconciled thru the ca initiates actions requiring deep sacrifice on their part may be enough…how exactly I leave to you

[EricW]

4 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

There is another angle to consider. All life is sacred to CA. But in this case her initiate chose to place one life form over another, elf over troll. So this initiate has transgressed CA in a very specific way. Penance must show that the CA initiate truly comprehends his or her transgression.

so the penance must be a way to show that any life is all life is truly understood. Maybe a quest to reconcile troll kin and elf, a seeming impossibility, but even one elf and and troll so reconciled thru the ca initiates actions requiring deep sacrifice on their part may be enough…how exactly I leave to you

There is one very specific time when Troll and Elf stood together - I fought we won. A hero cult where the lesson is divided we fall, that division between Elf kind and Troll kind invites the return of chaos, would fulfil this mythic requirement. 

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

There is one very specific time when Troll and Elf stood together - I fought we won. A hero cult where the lesson is divided we fall, that division between Elf kind and Troll kind invites the return of chaos, would fulfil this mythic requirement. 

There are quite a few cults this might work with, since they don't have specific cultic enmity with the other race.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I don't know the maturity (irl and gloranthan understanding) of your player but I would consider things differently (as GM)

 

first, it must be clear for the player that the pc did something wrong

now the main point is not that the world, the cult, the priest (.. the GM) tells the character how to obtain a new "purity" but more how the player (and the character) imagine to get back this purity

maybe the player will ask to the temple (so then yes, GM-priest should answer... but GM-priest may give a wrong answer, from GM-goddess perspective, after all...) or the goddess (but CA may not answer, cause the initiate must find a way)

 

maybe the player will have an idea and try to do it (then you GM would have to decide if the idea is good, good enough -aka you add more difficulties, opponents, anything the player did not imagine - or bad 'yes try it, ah you succeed but that doesn't change the fact you did a mistake)

 

for the "alone" player, without GM helps, is, imo, like what the character feels, abandonned by the goddess.

 

Typically, if I were your player, I would have at least 2 options :

1) leave the cult, become desperate and find another cult (a good one like Ernalda ?  or a "bad" one like Bab's ?)

2) find a way to offer a big sacrifice (myself), for example going to a Tusk riders camp and trying to convince / convert them to worship the life. Your choice then to kill (after some epic moment, please 😛 ) or to save my pc  (of course I should not succeed, but maybe after some pain, the help of an impromptu third party may save the pc and the goddess will accept to "clean" the fault, now I have a debt to the third party...)

[mfbrandi]

On 7/27/2024 at 5:06 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

A Chalana Arroy initiate violates cult strictures and hands over someone she has Slept to people who will kill them …
What things might be suitable penances … ?

Does there have to be a way back for the violator? “Thou shalt not” doesn’t have to amount to “you are free to … and this is the tariff for a return to the prior relationship.” You have done that which was forbidden to you. Your immune system is shot. The clock is ticking. Don’t put off saying your goodbyes. Sometimes, there is just no way back. Of course, I do not insist that this must be one of those times.

Fun alternatives to penance or tragedy:

• heroquest to make CA face up to her own hypocrisy;
• throw oneself on the mercy of the Mother of Microbes, blessed Mallia;
• cheat immune system collapse by becoming one of the undead.

😉

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Does there have to be a way back for the violator? “Thou shalt not” doesn’t have to amount to “you are free to … and this is the tariff for a return to the prior relationship.” ...

😉

Actually no. there doesn't have to be a way back. YGMV.  But the cults book says contrition and repentance.  I believe it also says or indicates that must be sincere.  

My own approach is that repentance must be more than psychological, must include ACTS of contrition, and I also  like the purification approach.

CA does have a rather harsh spirit of retribution.  Not unique in that regard.

 

[Malin]

If we are talking about something that happened in-game, then it would depend on why and the player for me.

If the player isn't as well-versed in Glorantha, or didn't think trollkin counted, or any other variant of "honest slip, lack of grounding" then I would have a quest be the answer. Maybe not a hero quest if they are new, but some way of introducing more of Chalana Arroy's beliefs for the player. Some way of making them understand that all intelligent life is important, and that trollkin is no lesser. Maybe even anchoring it to the curse of kin, or have them shepherd a small group of trollkin somewhere, making them feel empathy for what they are going through. I would use it as a chance to learn and grow, I don't see Chalana Arroy as wantonly cruel, and a player who miscalculated surely needs a second chance. If letting the elves kill them was done out of fear that if they didn't, they'd die, I would also make sure that they understand that there is power in the respect everyone has for Chalana Arroy, but that power also depends on the healers living up to it. If people come from more traditional fantasy systems, it can be easy to feel like this is a situation where if they oppose the elves they will die. As if the GM is giving them hints that the trollkin are supposed to die. Some players really gets their wires crossed when switching worlds, even if they read something, they still react like it was DnD or something.

If this was more of a calculated choice, from a player that should know better, or might have been pushing the envelope before, then things are different. Then I would have it be hard, with the temptation of turning to Mallia to stay alive. Maybe having to contact shamans to battle the spirits of disease that have a hold of them. Essentially giving the player a choice of deciding whether Chalana Arroy really is the goddess for them. If this is a small group and everyone is happy with the healer being the focus for a little this can be a really interesting journey. Redemption could be possible (I'd go heroquest) but also a shifting of cults into something else that makes sense without making the character unplayable.