Solar Esrolia

[M Helsdon]

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

That's not obvious at all, unless we're defining the purpose of marriage in Glorantha as impregnation, or that one must have functional semen which one ejaculates regularly into a woman in order to protect someone. 

These are agricultural societies and fertility is extremely important. There are marriage contests of worshipers of the husband-protectors to find the Year Husband of an Earth Priestess, and a successful marriage resulting in a pregnancy will be important to the priestess or her proxy, and to the wider community, both mythically and agriculturally, as a childless marriage is a bad omen. A marriage between a priestess of Ernalda and a worshiper of a husband-protector is expected to be consummated. So above, so below.

See Marriage Contests in The Earth Goddesses, page 27. There's a scenario involving one of these contests in the old Sun County supplement, with a Yelmalion contestant, Melisande's Hand.

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

These are agricultural societies and fertility is extremely important. There are marriage contests of worshipers of the husband-protectors to find the Year Husband of an Earth Priestess, and a successful marriage resulting in a pregnancy will be important to the priestess or her proxy, and to the wider community, both mythically and agriculturally, as a childless marriage is a bad omen. A marriage between a priestess of Ernalda and a worshiper of a husband-protector is expected to be consummated. So above, so below.

See Marriage Contests in The Earth Goddesses, page 27. There's a scenario involving one of these contests in the old Sun County supplement, with a Yelmalion contestant, Melisande's Hand.

And yet "husband-protector" exists in a polyandrous context. Yelmalio isn't a sole husband of Ernalda (even in Yelmalio-focused subcultures) and exists alongside other husbands. Now in the real world, polyandrous societies generally do not do so for more efficient impregnation of women, because pregnancy blocks further fertilization. I am going to assume that normal Gloranthan pregnancies work like this generally, (with the possibility of supernatural exceptions) and not like certain varieties of fetish pornography,  where once Orlanth has knocked Ernalda up, Magasta and Lodril can get their fish/basalt members into her and add more embryos to her clowncar womb and so on. 

Instead, polyandry tends to be associated with social contexts where men are frequently mobile away from a relatively stable home, and thus allows the social and labor aspects of marriage to be available year-round, by each husband being present in shifts. It also may, like polygyny, emerge as a way of emphasizing wealth and power through having many men who are needed to perform masculinized labor to process all the wealth that comes in. 

These allow for a greater specialization of roles, such as Ernalda having phallus-focused husbands to serve as stud animals for her production of children alongside husbands who perform the tasks of daily survival which aren't sexual intercourse and pregnancy. And because of the very clear mythological meaning of the Yelmalio myths, that climbing the Hill of Gold means leaving behind his ability or volition to perform sexually, metaphorized as heat, it is therefore extremely plausible for Yelmalio to be specialized in some other task, which may be "guarding the stead", or other crude jokes about him cleaning her carpets afterwards and providing a little tenderness, or, god forbid, some physical task of some kind. 

And if we have a god that completely contradicts the Hill of Gold and the Three Blows of Anger and the Light Son/Light Priest dichotomy... that is not the same god in any functional sense.

[None]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

This is, frankly, not a question that can be answered through the internal logic of Glorantha. We have to step outside of the fiction and note that Yelmalio as a fictional creation evolved in two different directions. One evolution was focused on the Yelmalio mythology itself, and that evolution emphasized Yelmalio as an ascetic figure, one who lost his life but got it back by giving up his heat/sexual volition/liveliness, who offers stoicism and endurance to those who reach out to him. This Yelmalio is a sun that's devoid of heat, a light in the sky that can help you starve better. 

The other evolution was focused on Yelmalio as a figure in broader mythological structures, where he serves a function as a "Sun Jr." who can substitute for his daddy and who is closer to humanity than his pop. This evolution eventually produced a few entities that weren't named Yelmalio, most of whom were Sunlike in having heat and flames and life. They could bring life back to the dying, provide food to the hungry, and all that. 

Ah, right. That. I can only call that a flaw in the game. Either you have to accept the ascetic one as the primary Yelmalio and then you really cant use him as a substitute when you need life giving light. Or you need a sun god junior who isn't Yelmalio.

1 hour ago, Eff said:

One detail that helps is that the Esrolian history is totally divorced from the constructed history of Yelmalio within Glorantha, so practically, the sources leave a big open space for you to play in.

By the same measure that means I claim they're totally divorced from the Dara Happan vision of Yelm too though.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

You'll find that Esrolia is classified as a subtype of Orlanthi dominated by Ernalda/Esrola cults. See the Guide to Glorantha page 31.

The land of Esrolia, one of the densest population regions in the world, is a land of the Earth Goddess. The grandmothers and queens maintain a dominant place in the political, religious, and social orders. There most of the men follow a wider variety of cults which are accessible as husband figures, including Argan Argar, and a local version of Yelmalio, although Orlanth is still the most favored husband and the major Orlanthi deities are just as important as in other nearby Orlanthi lands. Page 37

If you don't recognize that the Esrolians are Orlanthi you can't grasp their culture. Instead of the Orlanthi 'standard' of Orlanth and Ernalda, the Esrolians are Ernalda and Orlanth.

Thing is. Even if the game claims so I don't consider them Orlanthi or a storm culture. They're and Earth culture and Esrolian. Nothing can change my mind on that. The only reason they're shoved into being allegedly Orlanthi is because the game is to stubborn about the connection between Ernalda and Orlanth for its own good.

As I see it any similarities they have with the Orlanthi would be due to cultural cross-pollination.

Esrolia with how it is favouring such an unruly and violent god who frankly speaking is nothing more than a jumped up hilltop bandit to such a degree makes no sense. Especially not when Yelm, as the as the much more stable and actually life giving sun, makes so much more sense.

I can accept the Esrolians being tolerant or friendly with their Orlanthi neighbours, I can even accept them having Orlanth as one of Ernalda's lesser husbands as something that migrated over from the Orlanthi. As her main husband though? No.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, None said:

Please tell me the Esrolians understand the value of proper sanitation. The idea of a city the size of Nochet run by people that don't is concerning.

No need to worry. Just look in my Nochet: Queen of Cities book - you'll find a very extensive system of aqueducts, cisterns, and sewers. 

1 hour ago, None said:

I never really considered the Esrolians as Orlanthi. Their an Earth Goddess culture not an Storm God culture.

That's a misconception. The tribal center of the Kodigvari, the heirs of Vingkot (i.e. the ones who are considered Kings by blood), is Nochet, the heart of Esrolia. The Orlanthi led them into extensive wars all the way until Rastagar, at which point the Grandmothers took control, but it did not end Orlanthi/Ernaldan culture. 

Even post-Dawn, you can see this as an area of heavy interchange. The Lightbringer culture arrives early and spans the region. The Broken Council rules Esrolia in the later First Age. The EWF and the Middle Sea Empire battle for control of the region in the 2nd Age. The Heortlings rule Esrolia during the Adjustment period. 

However, during Belintar's 300 year rule, the Earth cults are again emphasized (and the Storm cults more so in Heortland), but that has not kicked out Orlanth (his temples just tend to be immediately outside the city proper - i.e. Storm Hill in Nochet). Orlanth is still the leading Husband-Protector, just not the ruler.

 

[Eff]

5 minutes ago, None said:

Ah, right. That. I can only call that a flaw in the game. Either you have to accept the ascetic one as the primary Yelmalio and then you really cant use him as a substitute when you need life giving light. Or you need a sun god junior who isn't Yelmalio.

By the same measure that means I claim they're totally divorced from the Dara Happan vision of Yelm too though.

Yes indeed! The door is wide open to play with these things, without having to worry about reconciling them with longstanding lore-with-a-capital-L because such backdrop material as exists is clearly different from the Dara Happan, Pelandan, and Heortling mythological events and in subtle ways contradicts all of them. Go for it!

[None]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

No need to worry. Just look in my Nochet: Queen of Cities book - you'll find a very extensive system of aqueducts, cisterns, and sewers. 

Thank you!

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That's a misconception. The tribal center of the Kodigvari, the heirs of Vingkot (i.e. the ones who are considered Kings by blood), is Nochet, the heart of Esrolia. The Orlanthi led them into extensive wars all the way until Rastagar, at which point the Grandmothers took control, but it did not end Orlanthi/Ernaldan culture. 

Well, that's just something where I and the source material disagree and when that happens I always chose me. As far as I'm concerned Esrolia should in some form or another and under one name or another essentially have already existed way before the Orlanthi existed.

Even if there was a time of Orlanthi dominance in Esrolia that doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned me.

9 minutes ago, Eff said:

Yes indeed! The door is wide open to play with these things, without having to worry about reconciling them with longstanding lore-with-a-capital-L because such backdrop material as exists is clearly different from the Dara Happan, Pelandan, and Heortling mythological events and in subtle ways contradicts all of them. Go for it!

I might actually. While I feel that the Dara Happan vision of Imperial Yelm wouldn't fit Esrolia I certainly feel that an Esrolian take on Yelm (probably with another name) would fit them much better as a main husband to their Ernalda than Orlanth, or Yelmalio for that matter.

I sometimes feel that Yelmalio drew one of the shorter straws in Glorantha.

[Eff]

Just now, None said:

I sometimes feel that Yelmalio drew one of the shorter straws in Glorantha.

Yelmalio is practically Glorantha's Sisyphus. Except that he got to the top of that damn hill with the boulder. So we must imagine him happy, because he does have a smile on his face. Metaphorically speaking. 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, None said:

Thing is. Even if the game claims so I don't consider them Orlanthi or a storm culture. They're and Earth culture and Esrolian. Nothing can change my mind on that. The only reason they're shoved into being allegedly Orlanthi is because the game is to stubborn about the connection between Ernalda and Orlanth for its own good.

Then your Esrolia is your own Esrolia and not related to the one in mainstream Glorantha.

The game simply implements Gloranthan mythology.

You are entirely welcome to create your own Glorantha. 

1 hour ago, Eff said:

And yet "husband-protector" exists in a polyandrous context. Yelmalio isn't a sole husband of Ernalda (even in Yelmalio-focused subcultures) and exists alongside other husbands.

Except in the God Time, events can be contradictory and sequence and causation and correlation are entirely different and even meaningless. So Ernalda has multiple husbands, but arguing whether those marriages were monogamous or polyandrous is meaningless. Instead, in the Marriage Contests held in Time, a Year Husband is chosen, and a priestess marries the winning husband-protector. Of course, in the next village, perhaps a different husband marries the priestess resident there.

1 hour ago, Eff said:

And if we have a god that completely contradicts the Hill of Gold and the Three Blows of Anger and the Light Son/Light Priest dichotomy... that is not the same god in any functional sense.

That may be both true and false because you are attempting to project myths and rites known to mortals in Time onto the God Time. The local Yelmalio known in Esrolia may be very different to the Yelmalio known in Saird and Prax, with different myths, but still be the same god. If this seems wrong, then you've just hit the event horizon between Time, where things happen in a sequence mortals can comprehend, and the God Time where often they don't. The God Learners tried to create a Unified Myth system, and look what happened to them.....

Myths in Glorantha and in our world can be contradictory.

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[Eff]

5 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Then your Esrolia is your own Esrolia and not related to the one in mainstream Glorantha.

The game simply implements Gloranthan mythology.

You are entirely welcome to create your own Glorantha. 

It obviously is related to the one in "mainstream Glorantha", because it's using it as a source. 

6 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Except in the God Time, events can be contradictory and sequence and causation and correlation are entirely different and even meaningless. So Ernalda has multiple husbands, but arguing whether those marriages were monogamous or polyandrous is meaningless. Instead, in the Marriage Contests held in Time, a Year Husband is chosen, and a priestess marries the winning husband-protector. Of course, in the next village, perhaps a different husband marries the priestess resident there.

I am taking the position that people's mythology is interrelated to their worldview, not that mythology is a bunch of meaningless babble that cannot be approached intellectually and thought about and interpreted. The fact that Esrolians believe that Ernalda is polyandrous says something about their worldview and that in turn can be used to analyze and thus develop Esrolia. And to reject that in favor of meaninglessness is, well, unhelpful for playing an actual game in Glorantha, and for what @None is clearly interested in exploring with Glorantha. 

But, if I may be blunt, hopping from making specific assertions about the factual nature of a "Husband-Protector" to "causation and correlation are meaningless" looks so very much like the tactic called "motte-and-bailey" that I have some doubts as to whether you are an honest interlocutor here. 

13 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

That may be both true and false because you are attempting to project myths and rites known to mortals in Time onto the God Time. The local Yelmalio known in Esrolia may be very different to the Yelmalio known in Saird and Prax, with different myths, but still be the same god. If this seems wrong, then you've just hit the event horizon between Time, where things happen in a sequence mortals can comprehend, and the God Time.

Myths in Glorantha and in our world can be contradictory.

So, here's a question for you. Are Zeus and Jupiter the same god? 

[Jeff]

50 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Then your Esrolia is your own Esrolia and not related to the one in mainstream Glorantha.

The game simply implements Gloranthan mythology.

You are entirely welcome to create your own Glorantha. 

 

Yeah. You can do whatever you want at your gaming table or have whatever discussions you want. But from the point of view of published materials, Esrolia is Orlanthi. They speak a language mutually intelligible with Sartarite, worship the same group of gods (and even with the same names), and share deep ties of mythology, history, trade, and marriage. The Sartarites hold Orlanth as the patron god of their kingdom, and the Esrolians hold Ernalda as the patron deity of their land.  

[M Helsdon]

54 minutes ago, Eff said:

It obviously is related to the one in "mainstream Glorantha", because it's using it as a source. 

  A rapidly receding source.

54 minutes ago, Eff said:

But, if I may be blunt, hopping from making specific assertions about the factual nature of a "Husband-Protector" to "causation and correlation are meaningless" looks so very much like the tactic called "motte-and-bailey" that I have some doubts as to whether you are an honest interlocutor here. 

Ah, I see, You are attacking me because I'm pointing out a fundamental facet for Glorantha in that many questions about the mythology have no definitive answer. 

I can assure you I am not playing a "motte-and-bailey" game. 

54 minutes ago, Eff said:

So, here's a question for you. Are Zeus and Jupiter the same god? 

If you believe your question can be answered with a definitive yes then you are in error.

They are obviously cognates with the Sanskrit Dyaus, but..... they all derive from an earlier Indo-European Sky-Thunder god, and the Romans, in their syncretic way equated Jupiter with Zeus to the point that whatever earlier myths the Romans had for their Jupiter were replaced by Hellenic myths, and there are only vague remnants of any earlier mythology. And both were related, to a greater or less degree with other PIE sky-thunder gods.

The Romans equated their Jupiter with Zeus, Amun, Hadad, Taranis, Thunor, and others. Are those all the same god?

In Glorantha you can say that the great Storm God is Orlanth, whatever their name, but even in Glorantha the cultural lens used to describe that god, their myths and deeds, will vary; that Yelmalio, Elmal, Kargzant, whatever Yelmalio is called in Esrolia are all the same god, associated with Lightfore, even if their myths differ. In the real world things are a bit more tricky.

But this is going way off any relevance for a Solar Esrolia.

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

They are obviously cognates with the Sanskrit Dyaus, but..... they all derive from an earlier Indo-European Sky-Thunder god, and the Romans, in their syncretic way equated Jupiter with Zeus to the point that whatever earlier myths the Romans had for their Jupiter were replaced by Hellenic myths, and there are only vague remnants of any earlier mythology. And both were related, to a greater or less degree with other PIE sky-thunder gods.

The Romans equated their Jupiter with Zeus, Amun, Hadad, Taranis, Thunor, and others. Are those all the same gods?

But this is going way off any relevance for a Solar Esrolia.

And here's the problem with that question - WE moderns assume that Zeus/Jupiter was a cultural construct, not something "real". So we try to imagine how a Greek or a Roman would answer that, while at the same time rarely taking their beliefs or rituals seriously. So here's my answer from within Glorantha - yes.

And we got even an empirical way of figuring this out. Can our Orlanth initiate participate in the mysteries of our Hadad ceremonies? Can our Orlanth initiate wield Hadad's power in the form of Rune spells? If they can, if they able to see and interact with the mysteries of Hadad as if it is Orlanth, then Hadad is Orlanth (or at least a local manifestation of King Storm).That's hard-wired into both the setting and the game. Entire empires have been founded on that.

Now modern cultural anthropologists and students of religion consider that to be bad science, but academic papers rarely let you cast Thunderbolt.

[M Helsdon]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

And here's the problem with that question - WE moderns assume that Zeus/Jupiter was a cultural construct, not something "real". So we try to imagine how a Greek or a Roman would answer that, while at the same time rarely taking their beliefs or rituals seriously. So here's my answer from within Glorantha - yes.

Yes. The question was directed to what I believe, and as I don't worship Zeus or Jupiter, I would have to say that I don't know, and that if I were giving a definitive answer, then I would be dishonest - because I know about Roman syncretism, and the centuries or millennia of distinct cultural development.

If I were a Roman, I'd say, yes! They are the same god. If I were a Greek, I might be a bit less certain that an upstart Roman really worships my god instead of a barbarian upstart who has stolen his attributes, but as he's backed up by powerful people I'd probably keep my opinions to myself.

Now if I were a worshiper of Esrolian Yelmalio in Glorantha, then even though the iconography and myths might vary, if I walked into a temple of Yelmalio in Saird, Sartar, or Prax, or the rare shrine of Elmal, then I would recognize them as the same god. My rites and myths might vary, but I'd still be able to worship my god there. Now things might be a bit more difficult if I approach a shrine of Kargzant, but again, I'd recognize my god.

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

 If you believe your question can be answered with a definitive yes then you are in error.

They are obviously cognates with the Sanskrit Dyaus, but..... they all derive from an earlier Indo-European Sky-Thunder god, and the Romans, in their syncretic way equated Jupiter with Zeus to the point that whatever earlier myths the Romans had for their Jupiter were replaced by Hellenic myths, and there are only vague remnants of any earlier mythology. And both were related, to a greater or less degree with other PIE sky-thunder gods.

The Romans equated their Jupiter with Zeus, Amun, Hadad, Taranis, Thunor, and others. Are those all the same gods?

But this is going way off any relevance for a Solar Esrolia.

The answer is "What context are we speaking in?"

Because the Roman Jupiter in practice, in cultic worship, was very different from the Greek Zeus, and the Romans noted and recorded this difference within elite writings even as they equated them mythologically (while also recording significant implicit differences in their areas of responsibility and power). And so depending on your context of reference, they may be very different gods that share similar iconography, or they may be very similar gods, or they may be the same god. 

And this is quite relevant because a Roman who treated Jupiter as if he were equivalent to Zeus for sacrificial purposes would not be performing the sacrifice properly, and would have engaged in a significant religious failure, one that could have drastic and devastating consequences, even though he would have equated Jupiter and Zeus together as mythological entities. 

And if we go to Juno and Hera, there are very significant differences in cultic character apparent through epithets, ones which make them significantly more divergent from one another, and then we could go to Mars and Ares. Mars could and would be called upon for agricultural purposes, but to do so for Ares would get you bupkis. 

And with Glorantha, we have a fictional creation, and so when Yelmalio is described cultically and mythologically as a god who is defined by his abandonment of his sexual potency and his rejection of sexual contact, and his abandonment of life for death in his refusal to give in to temptation, then if we have another "Yelmalio" who has sex, and shoots his golden wad into Ernalda annually, and provides all the things he gave up, they cannot credibly be the same god you worship the same way, because they have very different functions and exist in very different worldviews. 

You couldn't sacrifice to the god who climbed the Hill of Gold for agricultural blessings because that's contrary to the meaning of the stories that, for our purposes, define him. And the god who manfully and heterosexually ruts in Ernalda couldn't give you the ascetic's gifts of the other Yelmalio, because that's contrary to the meaning of the stories that, for our purposes, define him.

Now we could declare that meaning is antithetical to mythology and magic, but where does that get us, exactly? Apart from making backbiting comments that someone dares to contemplate being creative with Glorantha. 

 

[M Helsdon]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

The answer is "What context are we speaking in?"

Then you were asking the wrong question.

[M Helsdon]

I'm sad this thread has gone way off topic and descended to ad hominem attacks, as that's not my preferred debating style. 

Terminus est.

Edited October 4 by M Helsdon

[None]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

But from the point of view of published materials, Esrolia is Orlanthi. They speak a language mutually intelligible with Sartarite, worship the same group of gods (and even with the same names), and share deep ties of mythology, history, trade, and marriage.

The issue to me is that that only means the Esrolians are supposedly Orlanthi and supposedly favour Orlanth because the author(s) wanted it to be so despite being unable to make it internally believable.

That leaves you asking "Why?" and the only answer you get is "Because we say so but couldn't make it coherent with itself so we just refuse to admit that last part." and that is something that always irked me. Sure the claim can be made that they are both originally Orlanthi despite Ernalda having existed long before Orlanth and presumably having had people tied to her already and the claim can be made that they favour Orlanth because they're originally Orlanthi.

None of that changes that while Ernalda the way she and their relationship has been written works as Orlanth's wife in an Orlanth central society Orlanth does not work as Ernalda's favoured husband in an Ernalda centric society.

Not with the way Esrolia appears. I doesn't make any sense.

Edited October 5 by None

[None]

10 hours ago, Eff said:

And with Glorantha, we have a fictional creation, and so when Yelmalio is described cultically and mythologically as a god who is defined by his abandonment of his sexual potency and his rejection of sexual contact, and his abandonment of life for death in his refusal to give in to temptation, then if we have another "Yelmalio" who has sex, and shoots his golden wad into Ernalda annually, and provides all the things he gave up, they cannot credibly be the same god you worship the same way, because they have very different functions and exist in very different worldviews. 

You couldn't sacrifice to the god who climbed the Hill of Gold for agricultural blessings because that's contrary to the meaning of the stories that, for our purposes, define him. And the god who manfully and heterosexually ruts in Ernalda couldn't give you the ascetic's gifts of the other Yelmalio, because that's contrary to the meaning of the stories that, for our purposes, define him.

I do feel the urge to offer one possible solution here but it hinges upon the 'heatless' Yelmalio not being the superior or more true version.

Since the events at the Hill of Gold is outside time you could arguably claim that the Yelmalio without heat and fire and the one with are two different versions of him that split apart at that point and after that existed in parallel. One losing to Zoran Zorak was it? While the other did not.

You still need a reason for one instance of Yelmalio to survive with his fire and heat intact figure out how the Yelmalio cult hades this but it could arguably work. Of course you could also say they, after that point, are two different gods and they must both exist as equally true and valid interpretations without one being superior or more true.

 

Edit: Sorry about the double post. Didn't occur to me I could edit this in into the post above until after I posted it.

Edit, Edit: I forgot to mention that the Yelmalio cult write-up would also need to be altered or split into two for this to work as right now it fits an Yelmalio without fire and heat while a Yelmalio with fire and heat would have to have access to fire, probably have one or two more or different runic powers. Likely no geases, somewhat different runic associations and different cult restrictions.

Edited October 5 by None

[radmonger]

25 minutes ago, Eff said:

And if we go to Juno and Hera, there are very significant differences in cultic character

All I am going to say here is that in RQ:G, that means Juno and Hera would be different subcults that worship the same deity. And in Glorantha, as Jeff points out, that last part is an objectively testable thing, wheras on Earth it is purely sujective and unanswerable.

That difference does provide a bit of a disconnect between Gloranthan mythology and history when compared to the rrsal world. But it is pretty unavoidable.

 

10 minutes ago, None said:

The issue to me is that that only means the Esrolians are supposedly Orlanthi and supposedly favour Orlanth because the author(s) wanted it to be so despite being unable to make it internally believable.

Occam's razor does suggest is is more accurate to say that Sartarite Orlanthi are partly culturally Esrolian, rather than vice versa. Becuase there are other Storm cultures (e.g. Valind-based clans in the far North) without Earth worship. They neither follow Ernalda nor practise agriculture.

Wheras there don't appear to be any surviving purely Earth-worshipping cultures in Genertela, presumably due to the detah of Genert.

 

 

[Nozbat]

Ernalda is an Earth Goddess.. she has many lovers and consorts. She is also usually the regional ruling deity’s ‘wife’ (whatever that means to an Earth Goddess)

see CoRQ: the Earth Goddesses pg 15 (Many suitors vied for Ernaldas favour and she gave them freely) and Pg17 (often the wife of the ruling god of the kingdom)

For Ernalda, Orlanth is just one of many.. but in his world she is his wife

[Eff]

12 minutes ago, None said:

I do feel the urge to offer one possible solution here but it hinges upon the 'heatless' Yelmalio not being the superior or more true version.

Since the events at the Hill of Gold is outside time you could arguably claim that the Yelmalio without heat and fire and the one with are two different versions of him that split apart at that point and after that existed in parallel. One losing to Zoran Zorak was it? While the other did not.

You still need a reason for one instance of Yelmalio to survive with his fire and heat intact figure out how the Yelmalio cult hades this but it could arguably work. Of course you could also say they, after that point, are two different gods and they must both exist as equally true and valid interpretations without one being superior or more true.

 

Edit: Sorry about the double post. Didn't occur to me I could edit this in into the post above until after I posted it.

Oh, there are quite a lot of ways to have gods who are the same in one sense and different in another sense, going by the real world. Buddhism and Hinduism offer some striking examples. But, for example, Shaktism understanding Parvati, Lakshmi, and Saraswati as manifestations of Sridevi and the power of Shakti doesn't mean that they are all interchangeable. 

5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

All I am going to say here is that in RQ:G, that means Juno and Hera would be different subcults that worship the same deity. And in Glorantha, as Jeff points out, that last part is an objectively testable thing, wheras on Earth it is purely sujective and unanswerable.

That difference does provide a bit of a disconnect between Gloranthan mythology and history when compared to the rrsal world. But it is pretty unavoidable.

 

But it's not objectively testable. If I go and roll to worship Orlanth at a Yelm temple, and succeed at my roll, I've just proven Orlanth is Yelm! And in order to do that, subjective evaluations of whether I can make that roll, and under what conditions, must be made by my particular group playing in the context of a specific game. That's how roleplaying games function when something isn't explicitly defined as factual or non-factual within their texts- it becomes subject to the necessarily subjective and local application of procedures.

[Jeff]

37 minutes ago, None said:

The issue to me is that that only means the Esrolians are supposedly Orlanthi and supposedly favour Orlanth because the author(s) wanted it to be so despite being unable to make it internally believable.

That leaves you asking "Why?" and the only answer you get is "Because we say so but couldn't make it coherent with itself so we just refuse to admit that last part." and that is something that always irked me. Sure the claim can be made that they are both originally Orlanthi despite Ernalda having existed long before Orlanth and presumably having had people tied to her already and the claim can be made that they favour Orlanth because they're originally Orlanthi.

None of that changes that while Ernalda the way she and their relationship has been written works as Orlanth's wife in an Orlanth central society Orlanth does not work as Ernalda's wife in an Ernalda centric society.

Not with the way Esrolia appears. I doesn't make any sense.

I'm afraid for me it is you that aren't making a lot of sense here. 

[radmonger]

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

But it's not objectively testable. If I go and roll to worship Orlanth at a Yelm temple, and succeed at my roll, I've just proven Orlanth is Yelm!

Objective to both an inhabitant of Glorantha, and also someone following the RQ rules, which clearly state that Orlanth is not a subcult of Yelm. so that roll cannot possibly succeed. 

Obviously not objective to someone taking the rules and writing on them with marker pen, nor to an inhabitant of some non-Gloranthan world that coincidentally uses some of the same names for deities.

 

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Objective to both an inhabitant of Glorantha, and also someone following the RQ rules, which clearly state that Orlanth is not a subcult of Yelm. so that roll cannot possibly succeed. 

Obviously not objective to someone taking the rules and writing on them with marker pen, nor to an inhabitant of some non-Gloranthan world that coincidentally uses some of the same names for deities.

 

So Jeff's example, using the god Hadad, who is also not defined as a subcult of Orlanth or vice versa? How does that work, sir? 

[radmonger]

Yes, when you create a write up for a new cult, you should ideally state whether it is a cult or subcult. Just as when you invent a Gloranthan city, you should place it on a map. Most of the inhabitants will know where they live, so things wotrk smoother if the player does too.

While anyone is free to make arguments like 'Glorantha would be better if Boldhome was 300km to the North', that doesn't seem like a productive use of time.

Edited October 4 by radmonger