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BRP Magic Book: How to use?


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Yes, I bought this mess. Happy with it? No. Anyway, I would like to use spirit magic in my campaign. As you probably already know, this book contains magic systems from RQ3 that has not been truly converted to BRP. All references to undefined RQ3-terms, makes this book unusable for BRP without some work.

I wonder if anyone has used this book for BRP, and how they have dealt with BRP conversion.

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...I wonder if anyone has used this book for BRP, and how they have dealt with BRP conversion.

Used the Spirit and Divine Magic systems in my "Heroic BRP" game using D101's Savage North a couple of years back, mostly converting on the fly (magic points in spells caused a 1 for 1 DEX rank penalty etc). Don't recall any major issues tbh.

Nick

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The main issues are non-BRP skills and character generation. Referance to non-BRP skills can usually be ignored. For summon/enchant/ceremony skills, I thought of using Perform (rituals) only. All references to non-existent tables can also be ignored I guess. The same goes for “magic bonus”. BRP rules for spells in combat round should be used, as those in MB are totally corrupted.

Regarding character generation, I have looked into RQ3, and understand that magical training is supposed to start at the age of 15. For shamans in BRP this would mean around 9 levels of spirit magic spells, and +2 POW, for a starting character.

I understand you were converting RQ3 on the fly Nick, but not actually using Magic Book?

Am I the only one that has actually tried to use MB in play? Guess that says something about the book.

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I understand you were converting RQ3 on the fly Nick, but not actually using Magic Book?

Am I the only one that has actually tried to use MB in play? Guess that says something about the book.

The book has some issues, and the author has already apologized for them on these forums (including a free beer, so if you meet Ben show him your copy and you will get a drink :) ).

The RQ3 Magic System is fun and usable, with a few big holes that are easy to houserule. In fact, with that book you have a game that can provide you great satisfaction. However, you have to refer to bits and pieces of RQ3 to solve some ambiguities.

It has already been suggested that Chaosium may have not done the wisest move when choosing a "skim for inconsistencies and reprint" strategy for Magic Book. A rework from the ground up, like Jason did for the core rules, might have worked better. Many inconsistencies survived the check. You may have seen that Chaosium changed its strategy after this episode, and the latest publications are no longer reprints but reworks, or original works (like Mythic Iceland).

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It has already been suggested that Chaosium may have not done the wisest move when choosing a "skim for inconsistencies and reprint" strategy for Magic Book. A rework from the ground up, like Jason did for the core rules, might have worked better. Many inconsistencies survived the check. You may have seen that Chaosium changed its strategy after this episode, and the latest publications are no longer reprints but reworks, or original works (like Mythic Iceland).

Mythic Iceland is of good quality. I have not read all of it, but it seems like solid work. A very good sourcebook indeed. I like those CoC Dark Ages spells in there also, even though not entirely compatible with BRP.

Good that Chaosium have changed strategy regarding reprints.

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The main issues are non-BRP skills and character generation. Referance to non-BRP skills can usually be ignored. For summon/enchant/ceremony skills, I thought of using Perform (rituals) only.

That works fine. Ceremony, was really only used for ritual magic. There was a rule that you could use if for other magic, but the increased casting time usually wasn't worth it.

All references to non-existent tables can also be ignored I guess. The same goes for “magic bonus”. [/qoute]

Magic bonus was the magic category modifier, which for the life of me I can't understand why it didn't make it into BRP along with all the other skill categories.

[

About that, but there was an apprentice shaman profession that would be taken first.

BTW, If you plan on using Sorcery, you might want to surf the net for a copy of Sandy Peterson Sorcery rules. It address some of the drawbacks Sorcery has due to it's relaince on FreeINT.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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That works fine. Ceremony, was really only used for ritual magic. There was a rule that you could use if for other magic, but the increased casting time usually wasn't worth it.

Bullshit. When you have lots of time, few magic points and 75% chance to cast your spirit magic, taking the time to perform a small Ceremony and gain 6d6 to your skill, thus bringing it to 95% or so, was worth it. Magic points do not come for free. In my game, at least.

BTW, If you plan on using Sorcery, you might want to surf the net for a copy of Sandy Peterson Sorcery rules. It address some of the drawbacks Sorcery has due to it's reliance on FreeINT.

Or try the following quick fix:

Spell skill 01-49: uses up 1 Free INT per spell

Spell skill 50-89: uses up 1 Free INT per two spells

Spell skill 90-100: uses up no Free INT

Spell skill 101+: +1 Free INT per 10 pts. or fraction above 100 when casting that particular spell

Reduce MP cost by one for each point of unused Free INT, down to a minimum of 1 point per manipulation used.

This will make it work more or less like RuneQuest sorcery.

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Bullshit. When you have lots of time, few magic points and 75% chance to cast your spirit magic, taking the time to perform a small Ceremony and gain 6d6 to your skill, thus bringing it to 95% or so, was worth it. Magic points do not come for free. In my game, at least.

With Spirit Magic you ususally don't have lots of time. The majority of spirit magic was combat related (they called it Battle Magic for a reason), and you normally can't spend 10 minutes chanting to prep a bladesharp, disrupt, speedart, or even a heal (the guy might bleed to death before you make the cast attempt). In most situations it's silly to wait ten minutes casting protection 4, while you are in combat. And if you try to set it up before hand, you first spell will expire if you use ceremony for the second one.

It's easier and quicker just to drop your backpack (it lower your ENC) to up your casting chances then it does to use ceremony for battle magic.

And what do you charge for Magic Points? They are free in every other game, and regenerate naturually. Unlike, say limbs that have been severed, and which only have a limited amount of time to be reattached.

Or try the following quick fix:

Spell skill 01-49: uses up 1 Free INT per spell

Spell skill 50-89: uses up 1 Free INT per two spells

Spell skill 90-100: uses up no Free INT

Spell skill 101+: +1 Free INT per 10 pts. or fraction above 100 when casting that particular spell

Reduce MP cost by one for each point of unused Free INT, down to a minimum of 1 point per manipulation used.

This will make it work more or less like RuneQuest sorcery.

But doesn't address the big problem with FreeINT. Intensity, Duration, Multipell, and Range.

In RQ3 Magic Book/NRP MAgic Book, FreeINT is the cap on spell manipulation. A novice with a high FreeINT ends up being able to cast more complex and powerful spells than a Magus, simply becuase of FreeINT. What Sandy did was make the Sorcery skills factor in.

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Magic bonus was the magic category modifier, which for the life of me I can't understand why it didn't make it into BRP along with all the other skill categories.

Possibly because it was not in early versions of Stormbringer that used Category mods.

Easy enough to add though:

Int and Pow = Primary

Dex = Secondary

Primary characteristics add one for each point over 10.

Secondary characteristics add one for every two points over 10

BTW, If you plan on using Sorcery, you might want to surf the net for a copy of Sandy Peterson Sorcery rules. It address some of the drawbacks Sorcery has due to it's relaince on FreeINT.

Not quite as much an issue if you also allow Grimoires. To put it in DnD context, treat spells in FreeINT as those you have memorized for the day/week/period of time. This also reinforces the RQ Scholarly Wizard if you allow spells to be cast from a Grimoire as a ritual. Memorized = Cantrip/charm low powered though still potent magic; Rituals out of the books = the real stuff.

SDLeary

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Just dump Free INT. Limit Sorcery manipulations to skill / 5 (or 10 if you want to really rein Sorcery in). So a Palsy spell skill of 75% means that Sorcerer cannot apply more than 15 total levels of manipulation to their Palsy spells, but if they only have Range 30% they maximum level of Range manipulation they can apply to ANY spell is 6...

Nick

Edited by NickMiddleton
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It was a long time between drinks from when I bought RQ3 to when I purchased MRQ2 many years later. Like many of us I had tweaked the RQ3 Sorcery rules along the way to conform with how I envisioned the mechanics should play out.

From memory I had developed something pretty much along the lines of Nick's idea above and it seemed to work well. I also conceptualised the Free INT idea much the same way as SDLeary has described.

So, not too much tweaking to make the Magic Book work quite well, but yes, it was a pity that it was pretty much a reprint and not a reboot...

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Just dump Free INT. Limit Sorcery manipulations to skill / 5 (or 10 if you want to really rein Sorcery in). So a Palsy spell skill of 75% means that Sorcerer cannot apply more than 16=5 total levels of manipulation to their palsy spells, but if they only have Range 30% they maximum level of Range manipulation they can apply to ANY spell is 6...

Nick

That's pretty much what Sandy did.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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With Spirit Magic you ususally don't have lots of time. The majority of spirit magic was combat related

But not ALL of them. Detect spells are cast outside combat. And once a location is brought back to 1 HP, you can wait until combat is over to cast the remaining Healing spells to bring it back to full HP. And those are the occasions when having a good Ceremony skill is useful.

The Ceremony rules in RQ3 are less fiddly than one can think. Like many things in that magic system, they achieve through a simple, generic rule and a fair amount of maths what other games achieve with overdetailed special rules. In this case, the rule simulates ritual casting of a quick spell to increase chances of success.

But doesn't address the big problem with FreeINT. Intensity, Duration, Multipell, and Range.

In RQ3 Magic Book/NRP MAgic Book, FreeINT is the cap on spell manipulation. A novice with a high FreeINT ends up being able to cast more complex and powerful spells than a Magus, simply becuase of FreeINT. What Sandy did was make the Sorcery skills factor in.

The point is HOW Free INT is evaluated, not that there shouldn't be a cap that is independent of your spell skill. I heard no one squeal when Loz and Peter introduced the "10% of Manipulation skill" rule in MRQ2, which is essentially Free INT evaluated by using a skill. Note that you NEVER roll Manipulation in RQ, so it is just that: Free INT on a percentile scale.

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Yeah - I discovered that about a decade after I'd house ruled it myself - albeit I first encountered the idea on line in a set of notes on tweaking RQIII sorcery by David Cake, as I didn't track down Sandy's revised magic rules until the early to mid '00s.

Cheers,

Nick

Well, you had a good houserule so don't feel too bad about it.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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But not ALL of them. Detect spells are cast outside combat. And once a location is brought back to 1 HP, you can wait until combat is over to cast the remaining Healing spells to bring it back to full HP. And those are the occasions when having a good Ceremony skill is useful.

Still usually not worth it. Spending tenn minutes for a detect spell that last five ususally isn't practical. And reattaching a limb and bringing it to positive hp take a lot of MP, so players ususally don't have the MP to spare and aren't going to spend a lot of time on 1 point healing.

The Ceremony rules in RQ3 are less fiddly than one can think. Like many things in that magic system, they achieve through a simple, generic rule and a fair amount of maths what other games achieve with overdetailed special rules. In this case, the rule simulates ritual casting of a quick spell to increase chances of success.

I never said that I thought they were fiddly, just that they were used primarity for ritual magic. If you fail a Heal 1 it usually isn't a big deal. You can recast and MPs really are free and 1 MP will regenerate in an hour or two. But when you are dumping permanent POW into an enchantment, and you have all day to cast, Ceremony is a must.

Basically it is trading off time for skill. I wish they had expanded the rule to work for other skills. For instance a sniper skill they you could use to boost you firearms skill.

The point is HOW Free INT is evaluated, not that there shouldn't be a cap that is independent of your spell skill. I heard no one squeal when Loz and Peter introduced the "10% of Manipulation skill" rule in MRQ2, which is essentially Free INT evaluated by using a skill. Note that you NEVER roll Manipulation in RQ, so it is just that: Free INT on a percentile scale.

I didn't buy MRQ2, down play it, and didn't read it, so I haven't squealed about anything in it. I loathed MRQ1 though, if it matters.

And many, many RQ3 players did not like the FreeINT cap. So they would argue that the cap should be skill dependent. FreeINT was one of the changes from RQ2 that I didn't like. It really changed Spirit Magic.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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About that, but there was an apprentice shaman profession that would be taken first.

BTW, If you plan on using Sorcery, you might want to surf the net for a copy of Sandy Peterson Sorcery rules. It address some of the drawbacks Sorcery has due to it's relaince on FreeINT.

So, you were supposed to roleplay student and assistant shaman all the way also, even for starter characters? I think I´ll stick to the BRP version, where shaman is a starter profession. The challenge is to balance so the character is neither boringly weak, nor numbingly powerful. My campaign is at normal power level, and 9 points of spell is maybe a bit too much for a starter charater.

I´m not using sorcery (wizardry it is called in MB), but thanks.

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So, you were supposed to roleplay student and assistant shaman all the way also, even for starter characters?

Especially for starter characters. Since they would lack the abilities of a full shaman, such as a fetch. If you don't like that, you'd have to see what it took to become a Priest (or Rune Lord), or Magus. This isn't D&D where apprentices have no abilities and a couple of cantritps. Apprentice spell casters were full character, but more focused towards learning magic, as opposed to practicing it. It would kind of be like going to college today. Apprenticeship was a fast track towards learning the fundamentals down. In fact, you probably wouldn't want to use the Shaman or Magus experience without a few years of apprentice, since a full Shaman's skills doesn't stress the basics as much, and the character would be lacking. Both Shaman and apprentice got the same amount of experience each year, just that it was spread out differently.

And RQ background XP was very differernt than BRP. Characters got a few % points each year to several skills. Starter characters were either 15 year olds who started at the base % scores, or 17-27 year olds who got 1 year's previous experince per year past 15. You could change professions, too, or with GM permission, create older characters with more experience.

.

I think I´ll stick to the BRP version, where shaman is a starter profession.

That's just it, in RQ a full shaman was not a starter profession, but something that you had to work for. Same with Priest, Rune Lord, Adept and Magus. Characters had to work towards those professions during play.

The challenge is to balance so the character is neither boringly weak, nor numbingly powerful. My campaign is at normal power level, and 9 points of spell is maybe a bit too much for a starter charater. [.quote]

9 points of magic is hardly overpowering. One thing you might be missing is that all characters in RQ had magic. Most PCs would start with a point or two or healing, and an offensive spell of some sort.

Remember, in BRP the character is "paying" fpr his magic by having lower skill scores in other areas.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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So, you were supposed to roleplay student and assistant shaman all the way also, even for starter characters? I think I´ll stick to the BRP version, where shaman is a starter profession. The challenge is to balance so the character is neither boringly weak, nor numbingly powerful. My campaign is at normal power level, and 9 points of spell is maybe a bit too much for a starter charater.

I´m not using sorcery (wizardry it is called in MB), but thanks.

Apprentice Shaman and Shaman were both starting occupations in RQ3. The reasoning for Assistant was mainly as a plot device. Perhaps your boss was also a member of the party, perhaps something had happened to them and you were questing to find them. Perhaps they had sent you on a quest to find something they needed, or on a quest to find you Fetch.

It was the same for Sorcerers. And WRT Wizardry in the Magic Book, that is RQ Sorcery.

SDLeary

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Apprentice Shaman and Shaman were both starting occupations in RQ3. The reasoning for Assistant was mainly as a plot device. Perhaps your boss was also a member of the party, perhaps something had happened to them and you were questing to find them. Perhaps they had sent you on a quest to find something they needed, or on a quest to find you Fetch.

It was the same for Sorcerers. And WRT Wizardry in the Magic Book, that is RQ Sorcery.

SDLeary

It's more than just a plot device - the skills and spells learned were different. One got a lot more magic and the other more skills.

THe idea was to give all the prfessions the same sort of tier structure as divine magic, with an intermediate step between lay member and priest.

THe difference was probably most crucial with Sorcerey, since Sorcery spells were skills, AND Sorcerors had to learn spell manipulation skills (Range, Duration, Multispell, etc.), So sorcerors had to devote skill points to more magic skills that the other spellcasters, and as they progressed the emphasis for development shifted. At first, they needed to work on the basics, but as time went by they needed to work more on individual spells, so the training emphasis shifted. If somebody were tow rite up a sorceoer with all thier previous experience as Adept or worse Magus, they'd be weak in some key areas.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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It's more than just a plot device - the skills and spells learned were different. One got a lot more magic and the other more skills.

That would depend on whether you used the Quick Experience system, or the Experience by Occupation system. If the former, you could easily have a shaman and apprentice with almost the same skill/spell structure, one having their fetch, and the other without.

The Quick Experience system appeared the lesser because of to unfortunate issues. One, the space devoted to the occupation descriptions and skill multiples; the other the fact that they recommended that the Quick Experience system only be used with Gamemaster approval.

THe idea was to give all the prfessions the same sort of tier structure as divine magic, with an intermediate step between lay member and priest.

Never heard this. And it doesn't really make sense, because if you have a spirit cult, or a cult that allows sorcerers, you would still have apprentices, regardless of cult structure. I think it had more to due with the setting change; supporting the Western European view of a magicians as solitary individuals with one to a handful of assistants/apprentices, whereas Priests lived within the structure of The Church. Anyway, thats a philosophical design tangent!

THe difference was probably most crucial with Sorcerey, since Sorcery spells were skills, AND Sorcerors had to learn spell manipulation skills (Range, Duration, Multispell, etc.), So sorcerors had to devote skill points to more magic skills that the other spellcasters, and as they progressed the emphasis for development shifted. At first, they needed to work on the basics, but as time went by they needed to work more on individual spells, so the training emphasis shifted. If somebody were tow rite up a sorceoer with all thier previous experience as Adept or worse Magus, they'd be weak in some key areas.

Sorcerers spent more skill points to be potent, Shaman and Priests spent POW. The issue was the benefits of the latter. Divine spells and spirits were probably overpowered, or the sorcerers spells underpowered. The core structure was relatively sound on all three magics though.

An easy way to fix this is to use Sorcery/Wizardry as the core structure for both Shaman and Sorcerers, and only allowing Priests to have Divine spells.

SDLeary

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That would depend on whether you used the Quick Experience system, or the Experience by Occupation system. If the former, you could easily have a shaman and apprentice with almost the same skill/spell structure, one having their fetch, and the other without.

Not quite. The Quick XP system didn't give you the same amount of spells as some of the magician background. That said, yes tyou could match the skills between apprentice and shaman, but with the Quick Experience system you could have the same skill structre with fishers. That was the problem with the quick XP system, and why it required GM approval.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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It appeared the lesser because it was the lesser. Frankly it sucked. There was no restrictions of how players spent the skill points. A player could write up a farmer and put all his skills points into with Pike (up to 75%)!

It was never an issue in the games I played. It was the method we used most often. Now, our GM would have called us out (he always looked over ALL characters before play) if we had chosen anything odd, and made us justify them. The farmer in your example could be the local Militia Sargent for example.

How could you not? Are you familiar with RQ? The idea was to take your begging PC and work him up to Rune Level. Nobody started that way. In RQ3 the magic system was expanded, and an attempt was made to balance off the learning curves between the three magic systems.

Hmmm... very different experience here. We were playing in an adventure, and went where the story took us, or where we thought the story should go. I don't remember anyone who was pre-occupied with working their character up to Rune Level, and we were playing in Glorantha! :)

An oversimplification.

Sorcerors needed skill points, MPS and FreeINT to be potent. Without a doubt they had the toughest learning curve. But they also got the most flexible magic system of the three. Generally, if you had the time and magic points you could do a lot more with it than with the other two.

Divine Magic was probably the most powerful on a point for point basis, but cost permant POW, took time to renew, and came with lots of obligations and restrictions (you had to join a religious cult).

Spirit Magic was the easiest to use, and had the easiest learning curve (starting at POWx5% helps), but was probably the weakest of the three .

Thus, all three had benefits and pitfalls. And, while the magic that the Spirit Magician could work was by default weaker, they also had a much easier time finding and using spirits to their benefit.

Not a fix at all. Priest get slammed if they only have Divine Magic. They can't match spells with the other traditions, since they buy spells with POW sacrifices. Shamen and Mages can have a lot more magic bottled up than a Priest.

Depends a lot on the setting. And in this context, Priest would not necessarily be a counterpoint to Shaman and Wizards. In fact, I see no reason why Shaman and Wizards could not be Priests, unless of course a faith/cult didn't allow it.

In traditional Glorantha, the Spirit Cult would again provide the example.

If you want to max Sorcery and Wizardry, look a Lunar Magic. It was a sprit magic variant used by the Lunars that worked like Sorcerey.

Not really looking to max any of them, simply to provide options. :)

SDLeary

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It was never an issue in the games I played. It was the method we used most often. Now, our GM would have called us out (he always looked over ALL characters before play) if we had chosen anything odd, and made us justify them. The farmer in your example could be the local Militia Sargent for example.

You can't justify a farmer who doesn't have any farming skills. The Quick Method or to be more accurate the Freeform, Method left everything up tot he player, and that was why it was the lesser method. If you got good players, who will break up their skills honestly, fine, but most players will dump points into combat skills and then try to rationalize it.

Hmmm... very different experience here. We were playing in an adventure, and went where the story took us, or where we thought the story should go. I don't remember anyone who was pre-occupied with working their character up to Rune Level, and we were playing in Glorantha! :)

Extremely different - and puzzling. RQ Glorantha really revolved around the various cults. I never saw a ZGlorantha PC who wasn't trying to move up the ladder in some cult. It was called RuneQuest.

Thus, all three had benefits and pitfalls. And, while the magic that the Spirit Magician could work was by default weaker, they also had a much easier time finding and using spirits to their benefit.

Yup. A pit they couldn't mix with Sorcery though., That Fetch was nice. Had there been Lunar Shamans they would have been impressive.

All in all I'd say Spriti Magic was probably a bit too easy, and Sorcery a bit too difficult.

Depends a lot on the setting. And in this context, Priest would not necessarily be a counterpoint to Shaman and Wizards. In fact, I see no reason why Shaman and Wizards could not be Priests, unless of course a faith/cult didn't allow it.

In traditional Glorantha, the Spirit Cult would again provide the example.

Yes, story-wise no reason. But you were talking about balancing the various magic traditions. IN RQ Priest always had access to Spirit Magic, and Divine Magicians would be able to hold thier own without it. Yes, Divine MAgic is powerful, but it is also the most restricted, and harder to renew.

Not really looking to max any of them, simply to provide options. :)

SDLeary

MAybe, but if you are going to try and fix the various magic systems, you need to strengtrhen Divine, if you want to balance it off against the other two. Since RQ doesn't have many mass/area effect spells, it's hard for the Divine Magicians to hold thier own against the others in a large battle.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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