Cowboy Duck Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I've been playing with the BGB BRP weapon classes for so long that I need some help re-wrapping my head around the weapon skills as presented in Magic World. Am I right with the following? Each weapon is a separate skill. Any weapon skills chosen at character creation are for a specific weapon but all weapons of the same class are at that new level. If I receive an experience boost in a weapon skill, all weapon skills of the same weapon class receive the same point boost. Thanks, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Weapon class: rising in skill with one weapon, percentiles for all other weapons in the same class increase by the same amount. I don't recall (and can't currently locate) an explicit statement that starting skills are for a specific weapon, but that seems a reasonable inference - it's certainly how I always played it in Elric! and how I've handled it in MW. Cheers, Nick Edited August 21, 2013 by NickMiddleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Duck Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 I got that from the top of the weapon chart on page 78 and the first bullet point at the bottom of page 72. Thanks, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzunder Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'll use the Combat Styles approach from RQ6 for all my d100 games from now on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmitchell Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I've been playing with the BGB BRP weapon classes for so long that I need some help re-wrapping my head around the weapon skills as presented in Magic World. Am I right with the following? Each weapon is a separate skill. Any weapon skills chosen at character creation are for a specific weapon but all weapons of the same class are at that new level. If I receive an experience boost in a weapon skill, all weapon skills of the same weapon class receive the same point boost. Isn't this just a complicated way of having one skill for all weapons in a class? Am I missing something? Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Duck Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Isn't this just a complicated way of having one skill for all weapons in a class? Am I missing something? Yeah, that seems to be the end result - you essentially are skilled in the entire class, but your stated skill is for a specific weapon. I may end up just converting to the BGB weapon skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Isn't this just a complicated way of having one skill for all weapons in a class? Am I missing something? What's complicated about it? Character ha a weapon skill, if they pick up a related weapon they have the same score. I fail to see the complexity... Cheers, Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmitchell Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 What's complicated about it? Character ha a weapon skill, if they pick up a related weapon they have the same score. I fail to see the complexity... If your skill in a Shortsword also applies to other forms of sword, why not call it "Sword" instead of "Shortsword"? Why "Glaive-Guisarme" instead of "Polearm"? Why have the extra verbiage explaining that specific weapon skills transfer (unmodified) to the general class? If using a longsword with the Shortsword skill imposed some sort of penalty -- which would make sense since one would use different techniques -- I could see how naming a skill after a specific weapon made sense, but if "Short Sword", "Long Sword", "Bastard Sword", et al. are all just aliases for "skill with any sword", it's simpler and easier to explain if there's just one "Sword" skill. BTW, MRQII and RQ6 combat techniques reflect a particular way of using the weapons involved. There it makes sense: Shortsword and Tower Shield denotes a particular technique of advancing under cover and stabbing one's enemies. One can't use the same technique with a Hand-and-a-Half and a buckler, so being specific matters. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 If your skill in a Shortsword also applies to other forms of sword, why not call it "Sword" instead of "Shortsword"? Why "Glaive-Guisarme" instead of "Polearm"? Why have the extra verbiage explaining that specific weapon skills transfer (unmodified) to the general class? Because its boring and lacking in descriptive flavour? Lord knows no one I ever played with made any mechanical distinction in AD&D between the various pole arms... And yet for decades gamers have coped with systems where there was no significant mechanical differentiation between a Shortsword and a Longsword from a skill PoV (D&D, various prior editions of BRP...). I'm not particularly invested in a (any) particular solution - I'm merely baffled by the suggestion that a system that's been used quite happily and with no particular confusion by many for twenty years at least (the main impact of which is to simplify the process of determining whether a character can use a weapon they've just grabbed) is being described as "complex". Cheers, Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) And yet for decades gamers have coped with systems where there was no significant mechanical differentiation between a Shortsword and a Longsword from a skill PoV (D&D, various prior editions of BRP...). ... Nick Actually, RQ2/3 made such a distinction. Shortsword was in a different category than Broadsword, though this was incorrect IMHO. Now, as to the skill. It should be 1h Sword. That should cover use of all swords used with one hand; perhaps with a temporary penalty if you use a weapon that is very different from what you normally use. Say, -15% for going from something like a Bastard Sword (using one hand) to a Gladius (shortsword) for the first combat or two. Things were broken down this way in RQ2 and RQ3, but people seem to have had issues with the categories, or the items contained within, or something, and things became more "simplified" afterwards. SDLeary Edited August 22, 2013 by SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmitchell Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm not particularly invested in a (any) particular solution - I'm merely baffled by the suggestion that a system that's been used quite happily and with no particular confusion by many for twenty years at least (the main impact of which is to simplify the process of determining whether a character can use a weapon they've just grabbed) is being described as "complex". I had to read the OP's description twice (or more?) before I understood what was happening. Arguably one can restate the rule as "a skill in a specific weapon also applies without penalty to similar weapons." But just because a solution is venerable doesn't mean it's optimal. Most people think one sword is much like another, but I can imagine arguments about whether a khopesh, gladius, or scimitar is sufficiently like a falchion to use without penalty. (Maybe, no, and yes.) Also I wonder why weapon skills get singled out for this "simplification". Why not have Fast Talk, Harangue, Blather, Browbeat, and Glibness all functionally equivalent? Isn't that simple? One of the prime virtues of BRP and family is that a character's chance of success for every action requiring a dice roll is right there on the (single) character sheet. It seems counterintuitive to me that one narrow skill implies an identical value in a dozen other skills that aren't recorded. Yes, it's flavorful if a character carries a falchion instead of a sword. But if the Falchion skill is functionally a Sword skill, if the distinction has no meaning, then it's an unnecessary mental step, however small, to remap "Falchion" to "any one-handed sword I'm carrying". Players need all their head space for tracking the game; translating what things on their character sheet mean is a distraction. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Duck Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 I had to read the OP's description twice (or more?) before I understood what was happening. Arguably one can restate the rule as "a skill in a specific weapon also applies without penalty to similar weapons." But just because a solution is venerable doesn't mean it's optimal. Most people think one sword is much like another, but I can imagine arguments about whether a khopesh, gladius, or scimitar is sufficiently like a falchion to use without penalty. (Maybe, no, and yes.) Also I wonder why weapon skills get singled out for this "simplification". Why not have Fast Talk, Harangue, Blather, Browbeat, and Glibness all functionally equivalent? Isn't that simple? One of the prime virtues of BRP and family is that a character's chance of success for every action requiring a dice roll is right there on the (single) character sheet. It seems counterintuitive to me that one narrow skill implies an identical value in a dozen other skills that aren't recorded. Yes, it's flavorful if a character carries a falchion instead of a sword. But if the Falchion skill is functionally a Sword skill, if the distinction has no meaning, then it's an unnecessary mental step, however small, to remap "Falchion" to "any one-handed sword I'm carrying". Players need all their head space for tracking the game; translating what things on their character sheet mean is a distraction. Bingo. Clearly, I've played and enjoyed both ways. The games I've run using the BGB style of weapon skills have featured everything but boring characters. It's a matter of preference and I can plug in whichever system I choose. I do wish weapon skills were covered a little better in Magic World, which is what led to my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerfury Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 Is there any error in the listing of weapon class numbers in the Magic World rulebook. The reason I ask specifically is I see the Dagger/Dirk lumped in with mace and warhammer, WC 5 I believe? Quote The Vanishing Tower RPG Blog Read about my attempts at FTF RPG in the wilderness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick J. Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 2 hours ago, jagerfury said: Is there any error in the listing of weapon class numbers in the Magic World rulebook. The reason I ask specifically is I see the Dagger/Dirk lumped in with mace and warhammer, WC 5 I believe? There are definitely a couple of errors. I'll have to go through my copy later when I can and compare it to the PDF that edited on my own to clean it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thot Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 On 8/21/2013 at 8:29 PM, tzunder said: I'll use the Combat Styles approach from RQ6 for all my d100 games from now on. I prefer that approach, too. It also prevents weird skill improvement attempts (or spending too many XP on combat skills, depending on what system you use). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerfury Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I actually liked melding the Elric! combat rules into Magic World and go from there. Quote The Vanishing Tower RPG Blog Read about my attempts at FTF RPG in the wilderness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick J. Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 On 7/1/2018 at 7:01 AM, jagerfury said: Is there any error in the listing of weapon class numbers in the Magic World rulebook. The reason I ask specifically is I see the Dagger/Dirk lumped in with mace and warhammer, WC 5 I believe? Since you asked (and I'm on vacation this week): On the weapons table on page 72, the Cavalry Lance is listed as weapon class 11 (spear), when it should be 12 (lance). On page 74, the harpoon is listed as weapon class 12 (lance), when it should be 13 (harpoon). Net should also be 14, instead of 13. On page 79, there's a formatting error for javelins, and spears; they should have a carriage return and be weapon class 23, which bumps every weapon class after that up by one number. There's also some really wacky prices in the list that don't match up with Elric!/Stormbringer or even make sense: The metal-shod quarterstaff costing 400 bronzes is nuts. A falchion being 750 bp, while the greatsword is 400 bp is also clearly broken. Likewise, a longbow costing 750 bronzes is bananas, a cestus 400 bp, trident has no cost, lance is "earned," etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 You might just want to swipe the weapons table from SB5. It has the right weapon classes and the prices seem better (Quarterstaff 50bz, Falchion 230bz, Greatsword 750bz, Cestus 200bz, Trident 100bz, Lance 175bz). Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick J. Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Atgxtg said: You might just want to swipe the weapons table from SB5. It has the right weapon classes and the prices seem better (Quarterstaff 50bz, Falchion 230bz, Greatsword 750bz, Cestus 200bz, Trident 100bz, Lance 175bz). That's almost exactly what I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeahgday Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 I might have answered a part of the question in this thread; weapon-errata But not all of the questions. Please don't hurt me, I'm a noob here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsanford Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 4 hours ago, yeahgday said: I might have answered a part of the question in this thread; weapon-errata But not all of the questions. Please don't hurt me, I'm a noob here Welcome to the family yeahgday! 1 Quote Check out our homebrew rules for freeform magic in BRP -> No reason for Ars Magica players to have all the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, yeahgday said: Please don't hurt me, I'm a noob here Don't worry, we don't hurt people here. We might, however, show them the Elder Gods or take them to Dorastor, but that is character-building, not hurting. Edited August 14, 2020 by soltakss Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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