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David Scott

Praxian History

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Some of you might be interested on the current work on the Prax book. I've been mainly working on the Praxian history section. You might think that we knew plenty about this kind of thing because of the Guide and the Pavis book, but it turns out that most of the history is Pavis / Zola Fel Valley-centric. Some areas are completely blank in the Praxian's history - Who and what was/is Jaldon, Sheng Seleris and his influence, the migrations into to the Wastelands and the Praxians interactions with their neighbours. Some of this will go into the book, the rest will provide a basis as to what is currently going on. I now really understand why Greg produced stuff like GRoY and his other unfinished works - they give insight into the current situation.

Currently I'm looking at the expansion of the Praxians into the world starting at the Dawn. The basis of this are the Historical Maps done by Lawrence Keogh in the Guide and AAA, this is something we worked on together and so I am using the vector maps that were produced for it. The second source is the Wastelands section in the Guide which I fleshed out, this was the also used for the Historical maps. I've started by mapping the Covenant and the other groups that are present in the Wastelands at the Dawn:

Screen Shot 2016-08-20 at 14.28.21.png

The Covenant was actually centred around the sacred ground of the Paps, but didn't contain the Ostrich clan who were discovered in the First Migrations by Fanzali (info in the Guide) in the Ostrict Grasslands. I decided that was also the case with the Bolo people who's Lizards I put in a nice warm spot by the coast with insects to eat as well as vegetation. The independents are located in appropriate places: Baboons at the Monkey ruins, Agimori, south of the Paps as Ernalda is important to them, Basmoli in their Lion's den, secluded to the North a small wooded area high up with good views for hunting and prey. Other groups don't exist yet - The Amazons/Unicorn tribe don't really coalesce until after 35 when the First Council missionaries arrive and Yelorna appears with them. The cannibal clan don't really coalesce until later when their spirits start to possess migrating nomads, about half way through the first age. The newtlings are in the Zola Fel, and the Pol-joni and Zebra tribes don't exist yet.

The Actual numbers from the dawn are very small numbering 3000 (GtG)

 

Dawn

families 

septs 

Bison 

500

20

2

High Llama

500

20

5

Sable

500

20

5

Morokanth

500

20

4

Impala

500

20

3

Bolo Lizards

175

7

0

Ostriches 

175

7

0

Rhinoceroses 

75

3

 

Nose-Horn 

25

1

 

Plains Elk 

25

1

 

Long-nose 

25

1

 

The Rhino's nearly become extinct in the First Age (according to Sandy), and so this kind of info lets me fill in the history:

Quote

At the Dawn there were only three Rhinoceros families, numbering at most 75 people. Although the world was born anew, the fertility of the clan was severely compromised as it was linked with the Earth. By the time Dal-Gar became Most Respected Elder at the Paps in 139 the clan was down to one family, and that had hardly grown in the last few generations. Through epic ritual and heroquesting she doubled the fertility of the clan and reestablished the family in their ancestral grazing of the Rhinoceros Rocklands.

The Nose-Horn, Plains Elk and Long-nose aren't so lucky:

Quote

The last member of the Plains Elk, the Most Respected Elder Eiribou died in 297. The Nose-Horn were long gone by 515 when Eiritha asked Hun-Atai to stand in as the Most Respected Elder for the Plains Elk. Her great-grandmother had nursed the last one until its death. The last Long-Nose’s died at the Battle of Night and Day and were eaten at the victory feast.

I'm also using real population growth formula to look at how the Praxian grew over time. The core of the five major tribes which numbered 2500 at the Dawn (see above) had grown to about 2800 when the First Council missionaries arrived at the Paps.

If people are interested, i'll keep updating this post.

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More on population numbers and the Rhino clan

The real population growth formulae I'm using are not to produce actual numbers but show the trend in population growth. If we know the starting population in 0 is 250 and 80000 in 1621, the formulae can produce a steady human number growth chart. If a clan migrates Peloria (as did happen) I'm just going to assume more people were born and moved away in that migration - so the numbers are basically net population in the Wastelands. i've had a go at modelling the Rhinos to show how their fertility increased by the actions of various tribe members by varying the population growth rate. The normal growth rate for the major tribes is roughly 0.3%, current human growth rate on Earth is 1.2%.

0.15% to 139. 139 population = 30

139 is when Dal-Gar became Most Respected Elder at the Paps she doubles the growth rate to 0.3% The Rhino population is 30. This based on a starting figure of 25 as 2 of the 3 families die out (75-50=25)

0.3% to 1050. 1050 population = 459

Quote

In 1049, Han-Gar Rhino Mother was chosen by Eiritha to be Most Respected Elder at the Paps. She took her husband and Khan of Rhino tribe Jorbal as Paps Khan. Together they had completed some of the greatest magics that the Rhino tribe had ever seen, halting the tribe’s downfall into complete obscurity. Returning together from the Green Age, Han-Gar gave birth to a son who became one of the greatest sires amongst the tribe’s beasts. Once again great magics doubled the fertility of the tribe.

The following year at the walls of Pavis, Jorbal summoned Great Rhino who had not been seen since the Great Darkness. With a single charge the wall was broken open and the Rhino tribe charged through into the zebra grazing beyond.

0.646 to 1620. 1620 population = 18,168

Han-Gar and Jorbal's doubling of the Rhino Growth rate means that the Rhino clan are growing faster than the other major tribes. Potentially they can become a major tribe in the future, providing the Hero Wars doesn't affect them!

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I am interested. Prax is one of my favorite areas - has been since playing Nomad Gods back in the dark ages. In fact, I used the location for a D&D in the spring of '78... it was the reason I bought this new brown game from a couple of guys with a table at Origins that year....

So observation the first: The Guide to Glorantha (vol 2, page 440) gives the population of the five great tribes as 420,000 beings. You give them a population of 2,500 at the dawn. Now that is only an average growth of 0.316% per year, if that's steady growth. That means that  the total population of the great tribes of Prax would have been about 10,000 people when Arkat defeated Gbaji, and about 85,000 during the Dragonkill. Also note that this means the bulk of the population growth is in the last century or so; a 37% increase in population every century. I'm not arguing with these numbers - just thinking about their impact on games set in ages other than the end of the third age.

Question the first: Is an average growth rate of population assumed (giving me the numbers above), or did the population initially grow very rapidly, and then drop off? Nomad Gods described Prax as a "a barbaric land that had thrown off civilization many times". 

Question the second: Is the warlike culture of the Praxian tribes related to population growth? It seems to me that there would have been very little need to fight over resources during the dawn age or the imperial age; but as the third age wore on, tribal growth could have forced people out of Prax itself and into the wastelands; shortage of resources may, logically, lead to a more warlike culture. Hmmm - maybe the priestess-dominated Sable people and Morokanth are the conservatives ones, not the warrior-dominated Bison tribes. Interesting thought. Certainly the praxians seem to have plenty of myths about a green age when there was peace and plenty.

It makes me wonder how the gods war affected Prax. 

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My only request, by the way, is that you load the game with adventure seeds.

We need adventures for praxians, and we need adventures for strangers visiting the lands for the first time.

Always keep the game player-centric, that's my motto!

 

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3 hours ago, pachristian said:

So observation the first: The Guide to Glorantha (vol 2, page 440) gives the population of the five great tribes as 420,000 beings. You give them a population of 2,500 at the dawn. Now that is only an average growth of 0.316% per year, if that's steady growth. That means that  the total population of the great tribes of Prax would have been about 10,000 people when Arkat defeated Gbaji, and about 85,000 during the Dragonkill. Also note that this means the bulk of the population growth is in the last century or so; a 37% increase in population every century. I'm not arguing with these numbers - just thinking about their impact on games set in ages other than the end of the third age.

That's exactly what Im looking at. I've done the growth for each tribe though as they have different final populations. I want to know what the populations were at certain points in Gloranthan history. Here's the major tribes growth rates i'm currently using:

 

Dawn

families 

septs 

Growth rate %

Bison 

500

20

2

0.314

High Llama

500

20

5

0.301

Sable

500

20

5

0.31

Morokanth

500

20

4

0.314

Impala

500

20

3

0.339

 

3 hours ago, pachristian said:

Question the second: Is the warlike culture of the Praxian tribes related to population growth? It seems to me that there would have been very little need to fight over resources during the dawn age or the imperial age; but as the third age wore on, tribal growth could have forced people out of Prax itself and into the wastelands; shortage of resources may, logically, lead to a more warlike culture. Hmmm - maybe the priestess-dominated Sable people and Morokanth are the conservatives ones, not the warrior-dominated Bison tribes. Interesting thought. Certainly the praxians seem to have plenty of myths about a green age when there was peace and plenty.

Exactly what I'm going to look at. Initially violence would of been turned towards chaos. Have a look at this Dawn map of the Covenant in the Sacred Ground.Screen Shot 2016-08-20 at 20.25.42.png

The Orange is the Covenant occupying the 20 mile radius of the Sacred Ground. The Red is the Devil's Marsh. The first two pinkish bands are a 5 and 10 mile "chaos" fan, the larger purplish band is the 20 mile chaos fan. Almost immediately the Covenant would have come into contact with Chaos from the marsh, 20 miles is not so far for chaos raiders. Storm Bulls will have gone to the Block to do their duty and kill the chaos at source. Waha warriors would have been in the vanguard of protecting the herds. The edge of Sacred Ground will always be patrolled to stop chaos incursions.

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32 minutes ago, David Scott said:

That's exactly what Im looking at. I've done the growth for each tribe though as they have different final populations. I want to know what the populations were at certain points in Gloranthan history. Here's the major tribes growth rates i'm currently using

I fear it would complicate things, but population growth is rarely fixed, though the harsh conditions of Prax and the Wastelands will limit population growth and probably set a fixed upper limit?

Other areas, based on the information and maps in the Guide seem to have experienced a massive population explosion after the Dawn. In Prax there was significant warfare between the different groups for the best remaining spots on the plains from the beginning? Losers were then forced across the River of Cradles into Vulture’s Country, where they survived, expanded, and came back with a vengeance to raid, harass and eventually push out their foes, in an almost endless cycle until Sheng Seleris and then the Lunars intervened?

Would joining the World Council of Friends in the First Age have interrupted this cycle, permitting additional growth? The Battle of Necklace Horse conversely would have caused a population crash, but the eventual defeat and expulsion of the Pure Horse People would have released more grazing and a boom - until the Pol-Joni arrived in 1420?

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Actually, Mr. Scott is using a very conservative population growth figure. Nomadic Pastoralism is a very successful survival strategy: The nomads of the Eurasian steppes exploded outward in raids/wars/invasions against Europe and China on a regular basis: Scythians, Sarmations, Avars, Goths, Turks, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars, and, of course, Mongols (and I left out a few). And this is all within the roughly 1600 year period that matches "time" in Glorantha. I think what limits Praxian growth - and perhaps has saved civilization - is the divisiveness of the tribes. It's even harder to unite the praxian tribes than, say, Huns or Mongols. So what  probably limits population growth is that the thing praxians like to do best is kill other praxians! Note that their two great multi-tribal leaders - Tada and Jaldon - are both accorded demigod status among Praxians and demonic status by the people of Dragon Pass.

Honestly though, while I have immeasurable respect for Mr. Scott using realistic population and migration information on Prax, what I need for my players is "stuff to do".

All previous editions of RuneQuest have worked on a "short adventure followed by short training period" model. Deviating from that model creates difficulties. Assuming the newest edition of the rules will follow that same pattern, as a GM I will want to see information like: 

1) Under what conditions will I be welcomed at a Praxian tribal camp? If I'm a Praxian, traveling away from my tribe, is there a way to be welcomed at another tribe's camp, or at least be accepted as a neutral?What about my non-praxian friends: What can I do to ensure they are welcomed?

2) What do I need to do to get training on Prax, if I am not a member of a tribe?

3) Is there a way to get treasure - and more importantly, dispose of it for training or other benefits - while on Prax? Do I have to go to Pavis to sell the loot I found on the platau of statues?

4) Can we have some uniquely Praxian adventures? For example, a cattle raid, or a clan war that the players can take part in? Can we have those adventures relate to or tie into other adventures for other parts of the world?

5) What is unique to Prax? As a GM I may want to lure my Tarshite adventurers to the place - what can I offer them?

6) How do I run the setting so the female players do not feel discriminated against? Waha-based culture has a clear division of labor between men and women. The rulebook needs to explore options for female Praxian characters who break the traditional mold. I'll give you a hint: Creating a cult or subdivision that is "women's version of male-cult-x" does not do the trick. That's what's known as "separate but equal" in this country - and Nobody respects it. And yes, I know that we're talking about a bronze age world, but we don't play with bronze age people; we play with modern people, men and women, who need to be treated fairly as players, to enjoy the game. Always make that distinction: What's fair to the character may be unfair to the player.

 

BTW: I really don't expect the answers here, in the forum Mr. Scott - but I hope you will think about my questions while writing your book.

Edited by pachristian
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My own thinking on population growth is that at the end of the Dawn Age, the population of Prax would have been in the same magnitude as the current population (i.e. at least 10%).  However estimating this is a tad difficult because the current population figures are for the whole of the Wastelands which the Praxians didn't do live in significant numbers until they were forced to by their defeat by the Pure Horse Tribe.

Fortunately we do have a rough and ready figure that could be used.  The Sables believe they have won Prax and so would be living there while the other tribes eat chaparral.  Adding them and the Pol Joni gives a base nomadic population of roughly 100,000 which seems about right.  

The only other data point that I'm aware of is that the Bisons sent 150 warriors to the Battle of Night and Day implying that their tribal strength was at least 1500 at 379 ST (David Scott's figures give 1640)

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1 hour ago, pachristian said:

Nomadic Pastoralism is a very successful survival strategy: The nomads of the Eurasian steppes exploded outward in raids/wars/invasions against Europe and China on a regular basis: Scythians, Sarmations, Avars, Goths, Turks, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars, and, of course, Mongols (and I left out a few).

True, but: true for much of Pent, not the Wastelands east of Prax. These are the dead lands of the dead god Genert, with deadly eternal storms, and inhabited only by Chaos creatures until Waha led his people beyond the Vultures Country after his defeat by Pavis and the Faceless Statue.

The Wastes aren't comparable to most of the Eurasian Steppe, but more to the desert lands to the south, the Tarim Basin and Gobi.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

True, but: true for much of Pent, not the Wastelands east of Prax. These are the dead lands of the dead god Genert, with deadly eternal storms, and inhabited only by Chaos creatures until Waha led his people beyond the Vultures Country after his defeat by Pavis and the Faceless Statue.

The Wastes aren't comparable to most of the Eurasian Steppe, but more to the desert lands to the south, the Tarim Basin and Gobi.

 

I will respectfully submit that based on the Guide, only a portion of the land true desert; most of it is scrubland - in fact in the Genertela book from Avalon Hill (no longer considered canon, I know) it states that once you get past vulture's country, the land is no worse than Prax. So I'd argue that the "wastelands" are similar to the SouthWest United States - California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. This area was a thriving area for the indigenous tribes - and the Commanche in particular were successful nomads. You can't really compare them to the Praxian tribes, as they were hunter-gathers, not herdsmen' but the potential was there. So I will concede that Prax and the Wastes produce less of a population explosion than the Eurasian steppes, they would still support a growing population. 

Hmm - so I partially agree with your point, but still believe that the Beast-Nomads of Prax would have a growing population. 

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2 hours ago, pachristian said:

I will respectfully submit that based on the Guide, only a portion of the land true desert; most of it is scrubland

And not steppe. There's a major difference between chaparral and grassland: far lower biomass in the former than the latter.

2 hours ago, pachristian said:

Hmm - so I partially agree with your point, but still believe that the Beast-Nomads of Prax would have a growing population. 

But a very low upper limit, compared with the Eurasian Steppe or Pent: very much more territory required to feed relatively small herds, and small herds can only support low numbers of nomads, even though Praxian Beasts mostly eat different things. This is why the Animal Nomads tend to move in clans, not tribes en masse because except in a few areas the land cannot support a concentration of numbers.

The Animal Nomads are going to have hard limits to their maximum population.

I'll post this here, because it is relevant, unless Praxian animals have different dietary intake to their terrestrial equivalents (some are extrapolated because the equivalents are extinct, or have never existed, and there are numerous sources given different values for what a horse eats).

 

 

Food

lbs. per day

Water

Gallons per day

Bison

24

5

Bolo Lizard

8

0.5

Demi-Bird

25#

2

Demon Horse

30#

1

High Llama

30-60

3-5

Horse

25-30

8-20

Impala

2-4

0.5-1

Mule

20-25

8-20

Ostrich

8

1.5 (but can go without drinking for days)

Rhino

120

20 in a five day period

Sable

20

2

Tusker

25

12

Unicorn

20-30

5-10

Zebra

20-30

5-10

 

# Fresh meat.        

The Rhino Tribe will be in trouble, but seem to be heading for extinction in Prax as their numbers are so small. This table suggests why.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I fear it would complicate things, but population growth is rarely fixed, though the harsh conditions of Prax and the Wastelands will limit population growth and probably set a fixed upper limit?

I agree Martin, but this is also net growth, I'm ignoring overheads for external expansion. The limit is set by the Covenant. 

12 hours ago, pachristian said:

Actually, Mr. Scott is using a very conservative population growth figure.

This is based on actual population numbers for the Wastelands if the values were higher, the populations would be unwieldy. I'm saying that the growth rates I'm using reflect the magical damage caused to the Wastelands and the effect of the Covenant to remedying that. Otherwise like the early Rhinos, the rate would be half what the average is now.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

unless Praxian animals have different dietary intake to their terrestrial equivalents

In the Wastelands, Yes:

 

Quote

 

Praxian Tribal beasts are not Earth animals

Praxian tribal beasts may look like their Earth counterparts and be generally the same size and weight, but that’s as far as it goes in most cases. They eat different food, drink much less water, their general behavior, and their mating details are different.

 

 

As to the exact amounts, that's too much detail for me, but could be 50% less, as they are magically sustained as well. Outside of the Wastelands they revert to normal, what ever that is.

As to what the land will support, one of the next layers on my map will be the fertility data. I can extract that from Greg's original maps and notes to show where the best grazing is.

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12 hours ago, metcalph said:

How does Caylash Rhino fit into the scheme of things?  He's active between 780 and 810, even denting the gates of the Castle of Lead.  

I have him ready to be worked on. I need to look at surrounding events in more detail to look at what causes him to pop up. That's down the road someway. It's likely that the minor tribes will be a separate book.

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12 hours ago, pachristian said:

1) Under what conditions will I be welcomed at a Praxian tribal camp? If I'm a Praxian, traveling away from my tribe, is there a way to be welcomed at another tribe's camp, or at least be accepted as a neutral?What about my non-praxian friends: What can I do to ensure they are welcomed?

Intertribal cults exist. If you are a member of one of those then there is little difficulty with another tribe's camp. You join their campfire, otherwise you can't. Non-Praxian friends, if they are a member of a cult that is part of the Praxian Pantheon, then no problem - you vouch for them as well.

12 hours ago, pachristian said:

2) What do I need to do to get training on Prax, if I am not a member of a tribe?

As above or go to Pavis or another outlying settlement.

12 hours ago, pachristian said:

3) Is there a way to get treasure - and more importantly, dispose of it for training or other benefits - while on Prax? Do I have to go to Pavis to sell the loot I found on the platau of statues?

As above. The Lunars are always interested in unique magic stuff. It's a mainly barter economy.

12 hours ago, pachristian said:

4) Can we have some uniquely Praxian adventures? For example, a cattle raid, or a clan war that the players can take part in? Can we have those adventures relate to or tie into other adventures for other parts of the world?

I've run extensive playtests of this material over the last 4 years. There's plenty to do. Adventures for other parts of the world - that's what Argrath is for!

13 hours ago, pachristian said:

5) What is unique to Prax? As a GM I may want to lure my Tarshite adventurers to the place - what can I offer them?

Adventure and glory. Pavis is the real draw for foreign adventurers, as the book says Pavis: Gateway to Adventure. Once at Pavis then off into the Wastelands.

Question 6 will get it's own post as it's something that I have worked on extensively. Bear in mind that this is a HeroQuest book. The new edition of RuneQuest does include Prax as a homeland and has all the details, but not all the cults.

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A campaign next to the background would be perfect, like in S:KoH. Specially if the PCs get to shake the status quo. I guess the easiest way to do it is for the PCs in this sort of campaign to be from the same tribe.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:
2 hours ago, David Scott said:

As to the exact amounts, that's too much detail for me, but could be 50% less, as they are magically sustained as well. Outside of the Wastelands they revert to normal, what ever that is.

As to what the land will support, one of the next layers on my map will be the fertility data. I can extract that from Greg's original maps and notes to show where the best grazing is.

 

I was attempting to capture the 'normal' values for assessing logistics. My numbers are based on real world intake, or extrapolation for extinct/fantasy creatures (a few questions to a professor of biology specializing in extinct herbivores). Even if a rhino in the Wastes only requires half the normal intake, they still have a significant 'footprint' regarding the amount they have to eat.

It is clear that the Praxian rhinos, and to a lesser degree the high llamas are doomed to eventual extinction. The Wastelands will eventually, if they survive the Hero Wars, be the range of only sables (which eat almost any vegetation), zebras and the pygmy tribes. Big animals tend to suffer most when an ecosystem is stressed, and the Wastelands appear constantly stressed. Magic may preserve them for a while, but in a few centuries the rhinos will die out, as, tragically, they will in the wild in the real world in a decade or so.

Edited by M Helsdon
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Reposted here because it is relevant.

On the Gods War Q&A thread, Jeff has posted this:

Jeff Richard Collaborator about 4 hours ago

I have to admit, I don't buy Lynn White's claims about stirrups being revolutionary. There's plenty of archaeological evidence that the stirrup was known to the Parthians, Sakas, and the Chinese, and a fair amount of speculation that it was known to the Scythians and others.
So we have some stirrups in Glorantha - we know the Praxians use them. I suspect for the bison and high llama Riders, they are most important as a technique to get on and off their mount (they are awfully darn hard to mount without something like a stirrup).
I don't think stirrups are used in the West though. They aren't feudal knights.

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I, for one, have always rejected "it works that way because it's magic" argument. Ecosystems work in the real world for a reason, and when you override a variable for convenience sake, saying "it's magic" you risk throwing the whole system into disarray. And players are very quick to exploit that disarray. 

So, M. Helsdon, and Mr. Scott, I salute you both for doing solid work. The relatively barren Chaparral of Prax gives the reason why the Pentans don't overrun the place: It's not worth it to them. That good grazing that exists near the snow line is paid for by Praxians and Pentans alike with blood. Many praxian beasts eat different fodder than the others - much like the African savanna - and so an area that has been stripped clean to the rhino tribe may still have good grazing for the bison - who when they move on still leave grazing for the High Llama. and so it goes.

I'll chime in on stirrups, just because I'm a troublemaker: There is no evidence that stirrups were revolutionary. Alexander the Great had shock cavalry using lances, without stirrups, the Plains Indians hunted and fought with spears and bows (and rifles) without stirrups... *sigh* My opinion is that that yet another victorian fantasy to "prove" that civilization was advancing and that they were the pinnacle of civilization.

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As i've said elsewhere, I'm not going to mention stirrups in the Prax book - up to you what you want to do with them.

22 minutes ago, pachristian said:

I, for one, have always rejected "it works that way because it's magic" argument. Ecosystems work in the real world for a reason, and when you override a variable for convenience sake, saying "it's magic" you risk throwing the whole system into disarray. And players are very quick to exploit that disarray.

The Wastes are a magically supported ecosystem and so there is no real world example to support how this works. The Covenant is the magic support system and key to how the Wastelands work.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It is clear that the Praxian rhinos, and to a lesser degree the high llamas are doomed to eventual extinction.

Fortunately we aren't using a real world model. The High Llama tribe is likely to become the dominant tribe after the Hero Wars, mainly due to Yazurkial Blue Llama's participation. Likewise the Growth rate of the Rhino says they are destined for greatness at this stage.

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19 hours ago, metcalph said:

The only other data point that I'm aware of is that the Bisons sent 150 warriors to the Battle of Night and Day implying that their tribal strength was at least 1500 at 379 ST

Hi Peter, I can't seem to find this reference.

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22 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Hi Peter, I can't seem to find this reference.

History of the Heortling Peoples, page 25, last paragraph of the description of the Heortling Army.

Edited by rust
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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately we aren't using a real world model. The High Llama tribe is likely to become the dominant tribe after the Hero Wars, mainly due to Yazurkial Blue Llama's participation. Likewise the Growth rate of the Rhino says they are destined for greatness at this stage.

Perhaps, but as magic seems to reduce in potency in the 4th Age, if the Sables survive, it's just a matter of Time...

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1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Perhaps, but as magic seems to reduce in potency in the 4th Age, if the Sables survive, it's just a matter of Time...

Personally I don't believe that this is the case, and as the 4th Age is a long way off I'm not going to look at it's effects on the Praxians (I'm only just starting to look at the years 0 to 35!).

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