Do you plan on using hit locations?

[mrk]

A fumble, definitely. Like the old "Hit self, do maximum damage". In this case it's "hit someone else, snap own leg in two".

Although it could have been a failure and a critical parry.

I think Trifletraxor is right and that it is a parry. The Fighter raised his leg just as the other guy launched his roundhouse kick to block the incomming attack. It's a classic lower Muay Thai tactic that as you can see has the potentinal of doing some serious damage.

Edited July 13, 2008 by mrk

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

A fumble, definitely. Like the old "Hit self, do maximum damage". In this case it's "hit someone else, snap own leg in two".

Although it could have been a failure and a critical parry.

That was an epic fail. Since BRP has two sets of dice rolling here, it could possibly also be a fumble by the attacker and a critical by the defender (all kicking arts use "the shield" to defend against a kick...some actually use it offensively and aim to point the leg or knee to inflict some damage back at the attacker). Ultimately it depends on how the GM describes the exchange.

[Triff]

But since the guy who blocks surely has a 1d6 damage modifier, and should have a high enough martial art skill to do 2d6 damage with his kick, a successfull parry or better vs. a failed attack should do at least 3d6 damage to the attacker's leg, and even for those big guys you would only need about 12 points of damage to maim a leg. The guy have no armor, and maybe he even forgot to cast his protection! He probably have some natural AP though...

SGL.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

But since the guy who blocks surely has a 1d6 damage modifier, and should have a high enough martial art skill to do 2d6 damage with his kick, a successfull parry or better vs. a failed attack should do at least 3d6 damage to the attacker's leg, and even for those big guys you would only need about 12 points of damage to maim a leg. The guy have no armor, and maybe he even forgot to cast his protection! He probably have some natural AP though...

SGL.

Translating RL confrontations in game terms is a lot harder than taking game mechanics and describing it back to the players. But in this case, I don't think I'd give the defender the damage bonus since his defense was effectively static. Think of it as a "trap" to kick something you shouldn't be kicking. If anything, the attacker's Damage Bonus came right back at himself. Think of yourself walking into the corner of the table. Most of the harm came from you blundering into it. The faster, harder you come at the edge of the table, the more damage you take. Mr. Table wasn't really adding to the impact. Ouch.

[Trifletraxor]

You might be on to something there. Looked like more a AP vs. AP of tibia contest!

SGL.

[frogspawner]

:focus: Going back to hit locations...

RQ2 armour came in a hotch-potch of different pieces, covering various locations, rather than complete "suits" assumed to be uniform all over the body like BRP/RQ3. It felt realistic, and was fun to work out in a way.

But same-AP-all-over suits lose some of the realism, and much of the point of having locations.

Therefore I intend to define some non-homoeneous suits. But I don't want the hassle of rolling location all the time, so I'll use the weighted average AP, and only use locations if someone aims (see the spot rule) for a specific loation - which I expect will be more frequent, given the opportunity to hit weak spots in opponents' armour.

Anyone know any pitfalls with this? Or has anyone already done it? (And could I see your armour-suit deinitions, please? )

[mrk]

Actualy the man was kicking at the other mans leg and like I mentioned is a common combat tactic used in Muay Thai. Also, if you look closely at the footage, the defender is almost striking the other man's leg with his own. Experienced Kickboxers condition their shins to make them harder ( almost like metal ) and will use them to their advantage for both kicking and defending an is the reason why the man literally shatterd the lower part of his leg after making contact on the other man's shin. It's no different then a shield used to break a sword.

, I don't think I'd give the defender the damage bonus since his defense was effectively static. Think of it as a "trap" to kick something you shouldn't be kicking. If anything, the attacker's Damage Bonus came right back at himself. Think of yourself walking into the corner of the table. Most of the harm came from you blundering into it. The faster, harder you come at the edge of the table, the more damage you take. Mr. Table wasn't really adding to the impact. Ouch.

Edited July 14, 2008 by mrk

[soltakss]

RQ2 armour came in a hotch-potch of different pieces, covering various locations, rather than complete "suits" assumed to be uniform all over the body like BRP/RQ3. It felt realistic, and was fun to work out in a way.

RQ3 also had locational armour with ENC and cost for each type of armour for locations. So it had the best of both worlds - an easy to use/buy set of armour and crunchier location armour rules.

But same-AP-all-over suits lose some of the realism, and much of the point of having locations.

It does. It also makes it harder to work out what the AP should be if you are not using hit locations. Should somebody wearing a full suit of armour have the same protection as someone wearing half a suit of armour?

Now I actually have the rules I suppose I should start looking things up more often.

Therefore I intend to define some non-homoeneous suits. But I don't want the hassle of rolling location all the time, so I'll use the weighted average AP, and only use locations if someone aims (see the spot rule) for a specific loation - which I expect will be more frequent, given the opportunity to hit weak spots in opponents' armour.

I suppose that could work. As I use Hit Locations I've never needed to do this.

As to weak spots, I wonder how the rules deal with armour that has been damaged, by acid for example. With locations, acid only affected one location, leaving the rest on full APs. Without locations it should affect the whole suit.

[RosenMcStern]

I am rather fond of having two versions of chainmail, the long sleeved one and the short sleeved one, with the additional variation of not using trews under the skirt, thus leaving the distal part of the limbs covered by cloth or leather only. According to various history sourcebooks, as well as the armor crafters for LARPs, the short-sleeved, trew-less versions were fairly common. The stats for these variants, that made up most armors used in Europe till the 13th century, are present in Stupor Mundi.

Of course you have a problem there, because the hit location system does not allw you to determine if you have hit, say, the leg or the thigh, you do not know whether the target is protected by mail or by leather. Not wanting to make an additional roll, in this case I use the average system suggested above, for a total protection of 3 on limbs instead of 5 (would be 5 instead of 7 in BRP which has higher armor values).

[frogspawner]

RQ3 also had locational armour with ENC and cost for each type of armour for locations. So it had the best of both worlds - an easy to use/buy set of armour and crunchier location armour rules.

I didn't find RQ3's approach as satisfying, because you could get any armour for any location. In RQ2 it was more restricted - notably, you couldn't get plate for the abdomen.

It also makes it harder to work out what the AP should be if you are not using hit locations. Should somebody wearing a full suit of armour have the same protection as someone wearing half a suit of armour?

Yes, hence the idea to work out some "standard" heterogeneous suits. And before doing that work, I thought I'd ask here! (Hmmm... I hadn't considered the front half only before, though...)

As to weak spots, I wonder how the rules deal with armour that has been damaged, by acid for example. With locations, acid only affected one location, leaving the rest on full APs. Without locations it should affect the whole suit.

Two ways, it seems. Under the Acid spot rule, armour becomes useless after d6 rounds; under Armour Destroyed, which includes by acid, AP is halved... :ohwell:

To come up with weighted averages that produce reasonable-seeming suits (e.g. "chainmail" that consists mainly of a chainmail hauberk, plus minor extras), I think I'd have to take liberties with the hit locations table(s) - increasing chest to about 15%, say.

[frogspawner]

I am rather fond of having two versions of chainmail, the long sleeved one and the short sleeved one, with the additional variation of not using trews under the skirt, thus leaving the distal part of the limbs covered by cloth or leather only. According to various history sourcebooks, as well as the armor crafters for LARPs, the short-sleeved, trew-less versions were fairly common. The stats for these variants, that made up most armors used in Europe till the 13th century, are present in Stupor Mundi.

I'm hoping to model just that sort of thing. (No, not in the catwalk sense!)

I also saw a reference (C&S) saying there were different qualities of chainmail (perhaps layering), but I wasn't going to worry about that.

Of course you have a problem there, because the hit location system does not allw you to determine if you have hit, say, the leg or the thigh, you do not know whether the target is protected by mail or by leather. Not wanting to make an additional roll, in this case I use the average system suggested above, for a total protection of 3 on limbs instead of 5 (would be 5 instead of 7 in BRP which has higher armor values).

Well, I'm not intending to use hit location rolls most of the time. But if someone aimed for a location, hit it, and that location has different armours (like mailed thigh but leathered knee/calf) then I'd roll for sub-location - but it would still be just one location roll.

[Nightshade]

:focus: Going back to hit locations...

RQ2 armour came in a hotch-potch of different pieces, covering various locations, rather than complete "suits" assumed to be uniform all over the body like BRP/RQ3. It felt realistic, and was fun to work out in a way.

As noted, RQ3 certainly had the ability to use locational armor; in fact, I saw it all the time when you got to heavier armors. The fact it didn't try to specify exactly which armors were possible was a necessary trait in a game that wasn't designed for a specific time period and world.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

As noted, RQ3 certainly had the ability to use locational armor; in fact, I saw it all the time when you got to heavier armors. The fact it didn't try to specify exactly which armors were possible was a necessary trait in a game that wasn't designed for a specific time period and world.

In fact, I remember that the Coliseum supplement for RQ3 had a number of mixed armor combinations that were typical for gladiators at the time.

ENC being what it was for RQ3, and if the GMs enforced fatigue, monetary cost and availability limits (scarcity depending on region), players often mixed and matched armor.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Of course you have a problem there, because the hit location system does not allw you to determine if you have hit, say, the leg or the thigh, you do not know whether the target is protected by mail or by leather. Not wanting to make an additional roll, in this case I use the average system suggested above, for a total protection of 3 on limbs instead of 5 (would be 5 instead of 7 in BRP which has higher armor values).

In such a case, I'd like to offer an alternative suggestion that doesn't add an additional roll in those special cases where the player wants to be a fashion victim! As GM, you roll the D20 as per usual, and ask the player to keep track of it on his/her character sheet.

Hit Location Table modified parts only:

1-4 Right Leg (1-2 Below the Right Knee, 3-4 Above the Right Knee) - Rationale is that in melee legs are equally exposed above and below the knees.

5-8 Left Leg (5-6 is Below the Left Knee, 7-8 is Above the Left Knee)

13-15 Right Arm (13-14 is Below the Right Elbow, 15 is Above the Right Elbow) - Rationale is that in melee, you expose the forward (above the elbow) part of your arms farther than the part below the elbow

16-18 Left Arm (16-17 is Below the Right Elbow, 18 is Above the Right Elbow)

Edited July 14, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[Trifletraxor]

1-4 Right Leg (1-2 Below the Right Knee, 3-4 Above the Right Knee) - Rationale is that in melee legs are equally exposed above and below the knees.

5-8 Left Leg (5-6 is Below the Left Knee, 7-8 is Above the Left Knee)

13-15 Right Arm (13-14 is Below the Right Elbow, 15 is Above the Right Elbow) - Rationale is that in melee, you expose the forward (above the elbow) part of your arms farther than the part below the elbow

16-18 Left Arm (16-17 is Below the Right Elbow, 18 is Above the Right Elbow)

Nice. Like it.

SGL.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Gracias Mr. T!

[RosenMcStern]

Unfortunately, there is also a missile hit location table, and other humanoids who could be using this kind of armor and do not have the same even distribution of area between the lower and upper parts of their limbs. Having been using this sort of armor for the last fifteen years or so, don't you think I had thought of such a solution myself? Nice idea, but things are not so simple.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Unfortunately, there is also a missile hit location table, and other humanoids who could be using this kind of armor and do not have the same even distribution of area between the lower and upper parts of their limbs. Having been using this sort of armor for the last fifteen years or so, don't you think I had thought of such a solution myself? Nice idea, but things are not so simple.

Well I am sorry it was't helpful to you and there's no reason to be patronizing about it. I thought you had a very good question that wasn't addressed anywhere else and I was trying to respond with what had worked for me. Analysis-paralysis is not helpful if a simple solution is shared. Certainly you could make it more complicated for yourself by giving mooks patchwork armor, but why?

If players like customizing armor (like they do in MMORPGs and RQ3), let them have the option or not, but if they do, then my suggestion was that you let them track the distribution of numbers for missile and melee hit locations on their character sheets. Just call out the D20 roll and let them figure out where the hit happened. I'm guessing that once they figure out that they cutting themselves out of extra AP, they will reconsider their choices.

(I don't have my copy of first edition yet, which could include additional rules on hit locations.)

And since you bring it up, please know that I've been playing BRP based games with hit locations for the past 25 years and this is the solution that worked for me. YMMV. It was offered as a suggestion and with good intentions.

Edited July 14, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[mrk]

I like Funguys' table. If anything Rosen, it's something to work off for your own gaming needs. You can't ask anymore then that from another GM.

Edited July 14, 2008 by mrk

[frogspawner]

Certainly you could make it more complicated for yourself by giving mooks patchwork armor, but why?

Well personally, I'm hoping it'll give players a tactical aim-for-the-legs (or whatever) option. (As well as let players customize their own armour, if they wish - but still have "interesting" armour if they don't).

[mrk]

I think with so much discussion on hit locations charts going on that, I think a tertiary hit location chart needs be be created. That is, a chart that covers EVERY bit of anatomy you possibly can hit. Even better, I would finally have a use for that D1000 I bought years ago.

Edited July 14, 2008 by mrk

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

In lieu of dice, I say we tie players who arrive late to a spinning bullseye target (available at your local supervillain shop) and throw sharp things at them to resolve this issue! :deadhorse:

Edited July 14, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth