Pavis houses, shops and stuff

[Noita]

I was thinking that it would be fun to come up with inhabitants etc for each/some of the buildings not covered in depth already in this great city of ours. Like the Goldfang thread I started. It would be a great resource for us all.

Whatcha reckon?

[Joerg]

I'd say someone set up a wiki and enter the known info, a few people grab a copy of RuneQuest Cities for populating the houses without purpose into some purpose, taking into account the number of known businesses.

It is clear that we have several buildings housing more than one workshop or shop, so there is going to be a somewhat greater need for residences than in the usual Midkemia-Press-style city.

Charakters get pages of their own, linking to places (not just houses, but also taverns, streets) where they could be encountered. And linking other characters. And families, clans, gangs, you name it - luckily a wiki is a lot more flexible than a database. OTOH a database might be needed for an interactive map.

Published material can't be included other than the barest bones unless the site gets a go-ahead by Chaosium. Page references might have to replace copy and paste...

We would need a city map we can use - ideally an interactive one. Even better with a 3D option (a lot of 3D work on New Pavis has already been done e.g. by Jane Williams in VRML - the elevations of New Pavis might need to get re-modeled, it is far less flat than in the walk-throughs I have seen). It is possible to bend Google Maps to the breaking point to achieve such a result, or we would need a mapserver. (I have been wanting one for Glorantha for the last 15 years or so. Starting with New Pavis might be a way to get it going.)

One might even create an algorithm for moving people about in the city, in order to create a baseline crowd depending on the time of the day, with events and encounters worked in.

Here is an example of a campaign wiki set in New Pavis:

http://secrets-of-pavis.obsidianportal.com/

At the very least, you will get a mix of the City of Carse level information and a campaign wiki, but there are hardly any upper limits except participants' commitment.

[Byll]

What rules does the Gloratha Wiki ,largely curated by @metcalphand TerraIncognita operate by?

I guess from it's format, that you need to keep entries referencing copyright material quite brief. The links and hierarchy do convey quite a lot of the 'structure' of the material though, even if they reference the published source location for people to go and look up the fine detail.

If it were to happen, I guess you might want a 'player' page and a 'GM' page for many locations that PC's can wander around but don't know all the secrets of.

[Noita]

@Byll ... Master Map maker.

[Jon Hunter]

2 hours ago, Iskallor said:

I was thinking that it would be fun to come up with inhabitants etc for each/some of the buildings not covered in depth already in this great city of ours. Like the Goldfang thread I started. It would be a great resource for us all.

Whatcha reckon?

Id like more of a mix of ideas that refs could steal and pilfer from rather than a fullere-definition of the city.

The nondescript buildings are there for two reasons, i the boring stuff that players are not interested in that is needed to make a city believable, and to give refs space for their own stuff.

A bunch of pavis themed drop in spots would be fun though

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Byll said:

What rules does the Gloratha Wiki ,largely curated by @metcalphand TerraIncognita operate by?

While I am just an occasional contributor there, it is basically a free (advert-financed) service by Wikia which can have any subject. There ought to be a few administrator options, but basically there is just a wiki, and then there is lots of work to input the data.

Peter is working on a wiki-based knowledge base on Glorantha, and works a lot with categories, trying to give systematics.

I did a similar thing years ago using a database. Categories are fine, but you can operate a Wiki without that - if someone is a member of a group, link that group, and edit that group to link back to the newly described member. Especially for a project like New Pavis.

Quote

I guess from it's format, that you need to keep entries referencing copyright material quite brief. The links and hierarchy do convey quite a lot of the 'structure' of the material though, even if they reference the published source location for people to go and look up the fine detail.

In this case, I would go back to my old model of providing publication and page number for the sources. There aren't that many for New Pavis - HQ Pavis, RQ2 "Pavis and Big Rubble" (the Classics edition), Collected Griselda, and possibly King of Sartar, the Prince of  Sartar webcomic and RQ3 River of Cradles.

Quote

If it were to happen, I guess you might want a 'player' page and a 'GM' page for many locations that PC's can wander around but don't know all the secrets of.

That's absolutely easy. What you are proposing is the same format the Sartar High Council Freeform provided, a public information and a secret page. The secret information would have to follow a systematic alteration from the public information, and repeat (and possibly highlight) the public information. And there is a high likelihood that the public contents of public and secret information pages are going to differ sooner rather than later.

On Wikia, there is no way to hide the existance of the character secrets pages from the casual visitor within the same wiki. Running two wikis with duplicate data is a pain in the posterior.

The database format I used for my old Glorantha index, built by @CharlesCorrigan, did handle separate levels of data access, but there one would have to find a way to hide secret inter-connections (not that hard), producing a dataset takes a lot more discipline than in a wiki, and all that combined might well deter collaborators. I might be able to host it on glorantha.de if someone does the database administration.

My domain glorantha.de ostensibly can handle a wiki or two, but I would need time to set that up, and I have no idea what exactly the software provided by my ISP does. I need to finish the work on my house before I can sit down and get a wiki running there.

I don't get a mapserver for the current account with my ISP, though. That might need a virtual server running specialized software. A cheap version with KML overlays as used by Google Maps and other javascript APIs might be possible, and might be edited in a rather simple database/php combination, but again, I would need quite a bit of time to get back into the matter to set up something like that.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Joerg
failed to address legalities

[Joerg]

57 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Id like more of a mix of ideas that refs could steal and pilfer from rather than a fullere-definition of the city.

That's definitely wiki territory. The old Whitewall wiki did exactly this - everybody contributed what they felt like contributing, and then there was a mailing list (could have been a forum instead) where stuff was discussed. Good times...

57 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

The nondescript buildings are there for two reasons, i the boring stuff that players are not interested in that is needed to make a city believable, and to give refs space for their own stuff.

Sure. That's one of the beauties of a wiki - refs can contribute their campaign detail, and have other refs use it. A lame entry from a systematic can always be altered. There is an upper limit to believable bar establishments, though, and I think that the official ones in the Pavis books are quite close to that. Even so, a ref could always maintain a campaign log, campaign characters (at least their public info) and a "in my campaign" paragraph or separate page for the same person or place showing differences to the mainstream one in such a wiki.

57 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

A bunch of pavis themed drop in spots would be fun though

A lot can be done about regulars and one-time visitors in the existing bars, like the Griselda stories show.

[soltakss]

Am i misremembering, or wasn't there a table of random things in one of the troll books, for what you see when opening doors at random. 

That would be useful in Pavis.

[Noita]

A wiki is a good idea, though riffing off each other somewhere like here is the best part.

 

[g33k]

How about a Pavis game of Lexicon?

 

[Nel]

Wikipedia article about the Lexicon collaborative writing game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicon_(game)

 

Spanish readers might find useful this (unfinished) Lexicon game elaborating Teshnos:

http://glorantha.fronteriza.es/index.php?title=Lexicón_de_Teshnos

[Darius West]

Actually I have been doing exactly this for some time now.  Filling in those uninhabited houses in New Pavis for my Pavis campaign. I have pages of this, so here is a sample of a quick cut/paste.  As you can see I have developed the settings a bit, incorporating what is already there and putting some more meat on the bone.  As Jon Hunter legitimately says, empty buildings are there for GMs to use for their own stories, which is why I have been filling mine.

The notation is simply (Sex-Age-Origin) in case you were wondering.

D15  Inn.  Reed Inn *(1 star is the charitable minimum).  The name comes from its damaged sign, and the fact that the walls and furniture are made of flimsy dried reeds. Hourly rates are available for guests, making it a favorite for near-destitute local prostitutes, and fresh linen is extra, and probably stained, if available at all.  The place is noisy, insecure, and unclean, and has had multiple owners, on a scale of ever increasing disrepute. Drink is available in cheap plenty, generally the worst and lowest quality hooch, plonk, and rotgut that can still get you buzzed.  Bolgs are acceptable currency here. Vinegary watered down wine, kvass on the turn, watery koumiss from sick beasts that might give you a disease, beer watered down to the point where it may well actually be the beery urine from other  inns, and washtub gin have all been sold here.  There is never any food.  Well that isn't entirely true... Wise patrons don't even ask for food because the current owner is a troll who delights in eating ghastly smelly things. The current owner is Bagzaga Rag (F31Troll Stronglands-Pavis Rubble), a Dark Troll and Argan Argar cultist who works for the Red Bastards Street Gang in partnership.  Bagzaga likes the textures of the walls and the smell of the drunken vomiting guests, and rumor has it that if someone is murdered on the premises, she invites the local trollkin around and they eat the body together.  For their part, the Red Bastards supply the awful booze and stop the "God's Own" street gang of Suntown from harassing "their troll".  The Red Bastards also like to hang out at "the Reed", and will encourage local would-be musicians to try their skills working the venue for tips.  All in all, this place is a disgusting seeping sore on an otherwise somewhat respectable district, and many local residents would like to do something about it.  The Red Bastards however see "the Reed" as "their investment", and make a point of causing plenty of trouble for any local resident who complains too loudly or too long about the Reed Inn.  Patron reviews have suggested that Reed Inn makes Loud Lilinas look like a palace.

P12 The Dorasar Building.  A two story building with a Zola Fel motif fountain in the inner courtyard, and a glorious inlaid facade depicting the gods Pavis and Sartar clasping hands in friendship across the plains of Prax.   The Dorasar building was owned by the Council of the Pavic Republic, but ownership has passed to the Patroma Family since the occupation, who in turn pay the Governor Sor-Eel a portion of the "rents".  The Dorasar building has been altered and improved with notably apolitical decorative mosaics, and attractive internal faux colonnade frescoes around the courtyard gallery and its little Zola Fel motif fountain.  The current superintendant is Dorbur Too Far (M36Tarshite), and he is supported by 4 lunar hoplite guards placed there by the Governor to secure his interests.  The Patromas try to encourage interesting and profitable businesses.  Their current tenants include: 

 P12a Outrageous Fortune Bowyers **** (Excellent quality arrows, javelins and spears)  Owned by Lett the Hammer (M27Origin Uncertain), who will claim to friends that he is the rightful heir of the Carmanian Empire by birth.  The truth of this claim has never been verified or disproven, and it is generally considered that Lett is an entertaining madman.  Lett's work with missile weapons displays rare skill, and it is known that the rapier that he wears is for more than just show, after a fight he had at Gimpy's.  Rumors suggest that the shop is haunted, and it has never been robbed as a result.  Filia the Owed (F22Pavic)  is Lett's pretty and  long suffering "common law spouse" who lives and helps keep shop.  They have no children.  Outrageous fortune is on the ground floor with its own street entry door.

 P12b Fresh Bitten Furniture **.  Run by Krot Threefang (M36Crabtown), a dark troll initiate of Argan Argar whose clan live in Crabtown. This unusual shop offers stone furniture, urns, and statuary that has been nibbled into shape by value trollkin.  Surprisingly, the workmanship is quite good, often featuring quite reasonable "carvings" of local themes, including bucolic frontier life, lunar troops keeping the peace in wealthy New Pavis, hauls of loot from the Rubble, and so forth, and there is not a trace of trollkin drool to be found on the finished items.  Krot has found business slow of late and has begun to take in other furnishing inventory to make up the shortfall.  Fresh bitten furniture is on the second floor overlooking the gallery.

 P12c Tamali's Pastries and Hot Beverages ***.  Tamali (F36Horn Gate) is a woman of Oasis folk origin, whose personal story of slavery, escape, adventure and misadventure has seen her travel as far north as Raibanth, as far south as God Forgot, and as far west as Rathorela.  Unknown to pretty much everyone, she is an adept level sorcerer who hates all gods but Luck.  She makes wonderful cakes and pastries, full of air and local delicacies, and serves a variety of spicy drinks, all non-alcoholic.  She is happy and comfortable now, and dearly wishes to forget her earlier life, and will only ever mention anything about it when quite drunk.  Her shop is the only food shop in the Dorasar building and it serves the tables around the fountain courtyard.  Tamali is on the ground floor and occupies most of the gallery with folding tables and camp stools for customers.  As she is generous with her food to other shop owners, nobody complains about this intrusion onto the public space.

 P12d Horst's Quality Maille *.  Horst Redscab (M41Tarshite) (as he is known) is a dealer in armor.  His home is elsewhere. Horst is a Tarshite from Dunstop who served with the Supply Corp of the Lunar Army and while an adequate metal worker and armorer, he has no guild ticket from any city, and is at best only a journeyman in skill.  As a result he cannot get Metalworker's Guild certification in New Pavis, so he gets around it by claiming that he is selling "reconditioned" armor, and so doesn't pay any guild fees to boot.  This has members of the Metalworker's Guild very angry, as Horst can apparently "recondition an entire suit of chain from a mere single link" it is said.  Horst beat the Guild's court case against him with a bribe to the Governor.  Currently Horst sells mainly to Lunars and their sympathizers, and his armor, while metal, is totally average in quality, but some of the only gear you can buy in New Pavis.  Horst has an apprentice in the form of Dunkan, (M11Pavic) a boy who serves as his virtual slave.  Horst's Quality Maille is on the ground floor  opposite to Tamali's.

 P12e Fantastic Fabrics ***.  Trell Redbonnet (M32Helmbold-Sun County) is an Etyries initiate from an unremarkable family of Sun County farmers who regard his Lunar conversion as a form of utter betrayal and opportunism.  He is known for wearing a crimson Phyrgian bonnet made of magical red wool.  Trell imports all manner of fabrics from across the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country, as well as buttons, ribbons, colored threads, and everything that a tailor or dressmaker could ever want.  His shop is a riot of color, with exotic fabrics, even including Kralorelan silks.  Trell's Guild papers are in good order, and he is on surprisingly good terms with Brygga Scissortongue, and is a vocal member of the Free Pavis faction, vocally claiming that if people were allowed a free say in the way they are governed, they might choose to get rid of the Lunar Army but would ultimately choose stay in the Empire.  Fantastic fabrics is on the second floor overlooking the gallery.

 P12f Eternity Beckons ****.  Turpan Chiselhand (M24Pavic), initiate of the Flintnail Cult and Pavena the Hag (F71Pavic) a Priestess of Ty Kora Tek are partners in this business. While most cults can handle the ritual disposal of the dead in their own particular way, Pavena and Turpan are specialists.  Pavena is a compendium of knowledge about the death rituals of the regions of the known world, and personally knows the heads of most cults, and has a ready source of Ty Kora Tek initiates and paid mourners to help her.  Turpan is strong and skilled at working in various materials.  Between them they can take most of the worry out of a funeral, including the retrieval (assuming it is within New Pavis or somewhere non-dangerous) and preparation of the bodies, the making of arrangements for the disposal of the body with the religion in question,  whether by burial, cremation, or entombing, grief counseling up to and including the summoning of the deceased for a final farewell, and the execution of any wills via the Lhankor Mhy or Irripi Ontor temple.  It is a complete and very professional operation that tries to offer dignity to any customer regardless of their coin.  Eternity beckons is on the ground floor with a discreet street entrance for delivery of bodies, quite at odds with the grand entrance on the inside.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Darius West

[Byll]

Looking at the Pavis GtA household census, there are  25 Guild Elders in town. The write up for the 8 guilds mentioned only ever lists one individual as the elder of the guild. Does that mean there are another 17 guilds? If so what might they be? and who would be their elders?

01 Redsmiths Kalf Haldelson S-97

02 Cloth & Leather Brygga Scissortongue P-29(Mayor)

03 Jewelers Koli the Portly P-02

04 Merchants Valerina the Peddler P-14

05 Minstrels Hallarax the Singer R-133

06 Rivermans Hallarax the Singer for Scharman Ingilli R-106

07 Stonemasons Ginkizzie M-11

08 Weaponmasters Derenx the Handsome D-33

plus?

09 Adventurers Krogar Wolfhelm O-40

10 Apocathories D

11 Bakers Nan O-7

12 Basketmakers F

13 Boatwrights R

14 Brewers O Lilina O-29 Brodurev O-18

15 Butchers R-116

16 Candlemakers and lampmakers S

17 Cheesemakers, salters and smokers F

18 Innkeepers Orkan the Black P-11

19 Kilnworkers S

20 Moniers Keral Patroma P-13

21 Painters and stainers D

22 Ropers F

23 Scribes Valstatch Guilder P-22

24 Wheelwrights and Cartwritghts Thrandren Clubfoot P-4

25 Woodworkers F

Edited April 6, 2017 by Byll
Replaced Lilina with Brodurev as elder for Brewers

[Noita]

Glassmakers.

 

[Byll]

The existing Guilds are pretty wide-ranging. Cloth and leather workers would cover about half the guilds in medieval London... I was going to put Glaziers in Kilnworkers with Brickmakers Potters and Tilers. I wonder if they fit in Sundown after all? That was where I first thought of, but they may be a bit too hot for Yelmalio. 

It may be that the extra elders are just retired elders from the main eight guilds and this is all pie in the sky.

01 Redsmiths Kalf Haldelson S-97
Armorers, Metal smiths, Tinkers Weaponsmiths

02 Cloth & Leather Brygga Scissortongue P-29(Mayor)
Carpetmakers, Cobblers, Corswainers, Furruiers, Outfitters, Tailors, Fullers, Launderers, Sailmakers, Tanners Waevers.

03 Jewelers Koli the Portly P-02
Goldsmiths, Engravers, Jewellers, Locksmiths, 

04 Merchants Valerina the Peddler P-14
Merchant-ventureers, Grocers

05 Minstrels Hallarax the Singer R-133
Instrument makers, Musicians, Skalds, Singers

06 Rivermans Hallarax the Singer for Scharman Ingilli R-106
Fishermen, Fishmongers, Waterboatmen

07 Stonemasons Ginkizzie M-11
Architects, Artificers, Masons

08 Weaponmasters Derenx the Handsome D-33
Swordmasters, 

plus?

09 Adventurers Krogar Wolfhelm O-40
Adventurers, Cartographers, 

10 Apocatheries D
Alchemists, Apocatheries, Herbalists

11 Bakers Nan O-7
Bakers, Pasterychefs, 

12 Basketmakers F
Wickerworkers, strawplatters, basketmakers

13 Boatwrights R
Boarwrights, Marine chandlers

14 Brewers O Lilina O-29
Brewers, Distillers, 

15 Butchers R-116
Butchers, Slaughtermen

16 Candlemakers and lampmakers S
Candelmakers, lampmakers,  

17 Cheesemakers, salters and smokers F
Dairyfarmers, Cheesemakers, fish smokers, meat smokers, Spicers

18 Innkeepers Orkan the Black P-11
Inkeepers, Stablekeepers

19 Kilnworkers S
Brick makers, Glassblowers, Potters Tilers

20 Moniers Keral Patroma P-13
Bankers, Pawnbrokers

21 Painters and stainers D
Artists, Dyers, Painters, Signpainters, Stainers 

22 Ropers F
Netmakers, Ropemakers, 

23 Scribes Valstatch Guilder P-22
Archivists, Antiquaries, Illuminators, Scribes

24 Wheelwrights and Cartwritghts Thrandren Clubfoot P-4
Cartwrights, Harnessmakers, Wheelwrights

25 Woodworkers F
Bowyers, Cabinetmakers, Carpenters, Coopers, Fletchers, 

I didn't include millers mainly because I wasn't sure if grain is ground by water wind or horse power, and whether it's done in Pavis county on in town, but maybe there is a need for some sort of arable food producer's guild.

 

On a different tack, how do households work in Inns? I'd assume that the live-in family / staff are one household and all the guests together are just one extra household. 

My quick back-of-an-envelope reckoning of building floorspace in Oldtown ('cause it's the smallest) was 1150m2 which gives about 35m2 per person for 85 households of 4, a typical modern per capita floor space for the UK (half that of the US Canada and Australia, twice that of HongKong) If the people were spread evenly though the floor space (not that they would be, but just supposing) O-16 would get just 2 people and O-19 (Moonlighters) would get 23 Geo's appears to be really small and just have room for 4 people  I may have got something wrong with that one...

[Noita]

I like the idea of Geos being a hole in the wall. Open to the street, so folk use the whole alley or bring drinks home.

[Joerg]

Isn't Geo's supposed to operate on classic Orlanthi hospitality? Guests will get a greeting, unwelcome visitors will be escorted off the premise. A bit hard to do in an open alley.

[Byll]

Well I'm not saying you can't get more than 4 people in the space (~ 14m by 8m), but it's going to feel cramped compared to the rest of Old town.

Gimpys is 22m by 12 m on each floor and the top storey there has 8 'rooms' though the 3 partners and Kroger each have two rooms in their quarters so it could be 12 rooms if you needed to pack in more people.

I'd forgotten that "To get to Geo's one must descend a flight of stairs, ... [and] a shrine to Geo's Bouncer, ...Beyond the shrine is the common room ... Above the common room are private rooms and dorimtory ...in the basement below is stored casks of wine and beer."

So despite being 1 story on the map (the bedrooms above ground) Geos has three times the floor area I'd estiimated (or twice if you ignore the storage sub-basement ).

I also noticed that Brodurev runs a brewery of 8 to 10 Journeymen in a building that neighbours Geo's which "supplies much of the beer in old town". if it has 10 employees then it makes up about 4% of the population of Oldtown. They must drink a lot of beer if they need to bring in more. 

[Noita]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Isn't Geo's supposed to operate on classic Orlanthi hospitality? Guests will get a greeting, unwelcome visitors will be escorted off the premise. A bit hard to do in an open alley.

I have the whole alley covered by Geo's. The buildings are Sartarite tenements and the local gang the Deadheads have their hideout somewhere there too. The Moonlighters is run secretly by Sartarite rebels.

That alley is Sartar for all sense and purposes.

[Byll]

30 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

 The Moonlighters is run secretly by Sartarite rebels.

Coffee fountain!

Café René on the Zola Fel...

Edited April 6, 2017 by Byll
afterthought

[Noita]

Where is the reference to stairs etc in Geo's found? There's a mercenary company their too is there? At least their registration part if I remember correctly.

 

And the Brewery?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Iskallor

[Byll]

P200 and P201 of Pavis GtA for both. "Geo's Own" is mentioned but sounds more of an adventurer and unemployed/superanuated mercenary confraternity than an actual Mercenary Company

[Noita]

Govaran's men!

[Byll]

Ah yes,the Garhounds' private militia do get recruits funnelled theough Geo's. Difficult man, Gorovan, treats the place like his own hall, possibly because Brygga would give him what for if he held court with his free army at the Manor.

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, Byll said:

P200 and P201 of Pavis GtA for both. "Geo's Own" is mentioned but sounds more of an adventurer and unemployed/superanuated mercenary confraternity than an actual Mercenary Company

I assume that is a polite way of saying that it sounds like a bunch of barflies who have hit upon a way of making alcoholism sound like work.