Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 11 - God Forgot

[David Scott]

God Forgot section discussion here!

Don't forget Colin Driver's epic maps and the artwork.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6721-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-11-holy-country/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6722-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-11-deep-discussion/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6693-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-11-errors/

[metcalph]

What the God Forgot section lacks is any discussion of the relationship between the land and the Moon Rune (which we know exists from the Prince of Sartar webzine)

[Joerg]

Classically, the rune for God Forgot was the Man Rune.

I am not certain whether the Moon Rune was immanent in the God Forgot identity, or whether this was a connection "discovered" or engineered by Jar-eel, and I am fairly certain that this is a rather recent discovery.

The weird Otherworld map from Arcane Lore which is assumed to have come from Belintar's Book has three Lunar mountains in its central area, and about one sixth of the circular map occupied by the Void. The name God Forgot implies a magical emptiness.

Belintar's lifting of Loon Island demonstrates some mastery over the tides, which are a power associated with the Blue Moon. His original skin coloration encourages speculation that he may have had more such blue moon connections, and it is possible that the rise of the Red Moon was a prerequisite for his arrival in Kethaela. The disappearance of the Teshnan colony on the mouth of the Zola Fel falls into the time of his arrival, too.

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Classically, the rune for God Forgot was the Man Rune.

Source?

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not certain whether the Moon Rune was immanent in the God Forgot identity, or whether this was a connection "discovered" or engineered by Jar-eel, and I am fairly certain that this is a rather recent discovery.

Considering the Moon Rune is part of Belintar, I strongly doubt that it's discovered by JarEel.  Since the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City, the most obvious answer is that the Moon Rune was known there as the Purification Rune of the Zistorites.  

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

The weird Otherworld map from Arcane Lore which is assumed to have come from Belintar's Book has three Lunar mountains in its central area, and about one sixth of the circular map occupied by the Void. The name God Forgot implies a magical emptiness.

 

There's a big difference between using that old and uncertain reference as a map of the Heroplanes and using that to assert that nothing exists on the otherside of God Forgot.  

 

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Source?

Good question. Possibly some data now lost on old hard-drives, back when I discussed unpublished stoff on this topic.

Prince of Sartar has God Forgot as the modified Man Rune, with the vertical bar in the head circle, so Man definitely is there in the description of that Sixth.

My suggestion is that moon is common to all the Sixths, so it was there to be extracted. It doesn't have to have been a characteristic of that Sixth.

Quote

Considering the Moon Rune is part of Belintar, I strongly doubt that it's discovered by JarEel.

The association of the Moon Rune with God Forgot's Man Rune would be a new discovery.

Quote

Since the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City, the most obvious answer is that the Moon Rune was known there as the Purification Rune of the Zistorites.  

Quote

(Pavis& Big Rubble p.126)

The item was found in the fabulous Machine Ruins,but its origin is unknown.
...
Perhaps it was taken there by some forgotten moon worshipper in the early days of the empire.

This is similar to saying that the Gundestrup rulers were Celtic because they had that great cauldron.

The Purification Rune may have been Chaos rather than Moon. Note that chaos lies adjacent to the Limbo in the Spiral Map.

The Otherworld map has only three places of the moon - blue,, white and red.

Quote

There's a big difference between using that old and uncertain reference as a map of the Heroplanes and using that to assert that nothing exists on the otherside of God Forgot.  

That map is a map of the God World equivalent of Kethaela  rather than the hero plane that gets mapped as per the God Learner maps in the Guide.

Purification - stripping unnecessary things off into the Limbo. Seems logical to me.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Joerg

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Good question. Possibly some data now lost on old hard-drives, back when I discussed unpublished stoff on this topic.

I'm not interested in the unpublished stuff but actual published material.  The Prince of Sartar Webzine associates the Moon Rune with God Forgot, not the Man Rune.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Prince of Sartar has God Forgot as the modified Man Rune, with the vertical bar in the head circle, so Man definitely is there in the description of that Sixth.

Belintar has the Moon Rune, not the man rune.  And the Six Guardians panel actually shows three main runes - law, man and moon, so I don't think the man rune is "modified".  Rather I think it represents the old Zistorite philosophy of Man (Rune) seeking Henosis with the Invisible God (Law Rune) through the Purification (Moon) Rune.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

My suggestion is that moon is common to all the Sixths, so it was there to be extracted. It doesn't have to have been a characteristic of that Sixth.

I don't see evidence of the Moon Rune in other parts of the Holy Country.  Just Earth, Fire, Storm etc.  And what do you mean by extracted?  It was already well-known in the Holy Country before JarEel came along.  Belintar's appearance as an actual Hamsa means that it would have been readily used as a symbol of him throughout the Holy Country.  He's even wearing it in the picture of him in p238.  And when people are going to attached the six runes to them and associate them with the Sixths, what rune do you think they are going to associate with God Forgot?  

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The association of the Moon Rune with God Forgot's Man Rune would be a new discovery.

Even accepting the premise of this for the sake of argument, is it seriously your suggestion that nobody thought to look at the similarity between the Moon Rune in Belintar (which everyone can see!) and the Modified Man Rune until JarEel came along?  I find that hard to believe.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

This is similar to saying that the Gundestrup rulers were Celtic because they had that great cauldron.

I don't know who the Gundestrup rulers were and I don't find bizarre segues into obscure real world trivia to be at all informative.  Now that much more is known of the Holy Country, the Zistorites with their doctrine of the Purification Rune and the use of the word perhaps, the actual origins of the Wand becomes much clearer.  And for your information, there does happen to be a small event known as the Dragonkill which would have prevented anybody from Peloria from reaching the Machine City in the early days of the Empire.  

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Purification Rune may have been Chaos rather than Moon. Note that chaos lies adjacent to the Limbo in the Spiral Map.

The spiral map is not canon and is a remarkably weak reed to base your argument upon it (I'm not saying it's wrong, mind you, it's just that I would prefer a more developed theory than a mere sayso that the Moon Rune was unrecognized until JarEel came along) .  And I'm sure that the God Learners no matter how unwise they were would have been able to know whether the Purification Rune was in fact a Chaos Rune.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That map is a map of the God World equivalent of Kethaela  rather than the hero plane that gets mapped as per the God Learner maps in the Guide.

The Spiral Map text description in Arcane Lore does not mention Kethaela.  I know El Penjelo thought it might be a map of the Holy Country but even if the map was accurate when published, there remains the fact that considerable time has passed since then, a few of the names on there appear nowhere else and most importantly, Greg's thinking on the White Moon has changed.  So I really consider it an interesting piece of historical trivia much like the rest of Arcane Lore.

[davecake]

I find the association of the Red Moon with the core doctrine of the Zistorites as an extrapolation of a single magic item to be a very long bow indeed. We already know the Zistorites included magical specialists in every Rune they knew of, clearly their Moon specialists created an item to have ready access to a source of Lunar power, but it seems unlikely that it's both the central item of Zistorite doctrine and a vital connection to the core magic of God Forgot, yet is sitting around in Duke Raus's house, seems unlikely. 

FWIW, if God Forgot is apparently associated with the Moon Rune, I'd be more inclined to associate it with the Blue Moon, both as goddess of secrets and tidal powers. 

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

I find the association of the Red Moon with the core doctrine of the Zistorites as an extrapolation of a single magic item to be a very long bow indeed.

It isn't an extrapolation of a single magic item.  It's from *three* seperate sources.

1)  God Forgot's surprising association with the Moon Rune in the Prince of Sartar Webzine

2)  The drama about the Purification Rune in the Middle Sea Empire p46-47 (including the statements that it was made up).

3)  The aforementioned wand.

Now you can disagree with my theory, but I really would like to see an alternative explanation for 1) rather than doubting the foundations of my theory.  And I do not think that JarEel invented the connection, Belintar imposed it on God Forgot or the Lunar Connections were there but nobody recognized them are viable as explanations.

 

6 hours ago, davecake said:

We already know the Zistorites included magical specialists in every Rune they knew of, clearly their Moon specialists created an item to have ready access to a source of Lunar power,

But was the Moon Rune one of the Runes that they knew of?  

6 hours ago, davecake said:

but it seems unlikely that it's both the central item of Zistorite doctrine and a vital connection to the core magic of God Forgot, yet is sitting around in Duke Raus's house, seems unlikely. 

I don't believe the wand is a central item and a vital connection or even the One Ring of the Zistorites.  I believe it was a magical tool using the purification rune that survived the destruction of the Machine City and the Mostali looting of it (possibly bogus conspiracy theory:  the Silver Dwarves used the lore of the Machine City for the spells by which they made the Red Moon).  How important it was to the Zistorites is unknown.  How important it is to the current God Forgotten is, I think, not very much as they have shied away from Purification of the World as an error which destroyed the Machine City.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

FWIW, if God Forgot is apparently associated with the Moon Rune, I'd be more inclined to associate it with the Blue Moon, both as goddess of secrets and tidal powers. 

The colour of God Forgot is pinkish-Red so I think the Red Moon is clearly indicated as its source (I think the differences in red are because they reject the use of Chaos).  God Forgot could have been associated with the Blue Moon *before* the rise of the Red (as Sandy, I think, suggested for Artmal as an explanation of his rune spell in Troll Gods)

[Steve]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

1)  God Forgot's surprising association with the Moon Rune in the Prince of Sartar Webzine

Are you talking about this sort of thing? http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/40-the-six-guardians/

Edited September 8, 2017 by Steve

[davecake]

i know its three separate sources, Peter, but the history of the wand is the only thing that seems to link them. That one discussion of the history of the Wand is the only thing that links the Zistorites and the Moon other than both taking place in the same general geographical area. I also find it unconvincing that the elemental associations of every other Sixth were well established at the Dawn, but one was somehow a thing that happened in the late Second Age. 

i do totally agree with you that Jar-Eel did not invent the connection. I agree with you that it may well be that they thought of the Lunar power as Blue, and then it turned Red later. Quite possibly even they attempted to create a Blue Moon wand, applied their Purification magic, and were surprised that the result was Red. But that isn't the same as saying Purification is moon, just that the Moon can be Purified just like anything can (and i'm sure the Zistorites were particularly excited about it as proof of their theories). But the Purification Rune was supposed to act on all things and all Elements. 

I do think the Zistorites knew of the Moon rune, the God-Learners knew of the blue moon. They did not know about the Red, unless some of them had done some very deep research and were very insightful. It may even be that the area was not associated with the Moon rune until after the Zistorite wars and somehow the rising of the goddess. 

I do think providing an alternative explanation is reasonable. i think that God forgot, being directly south of Heortland and Dragon Pass, is fairly likely what remains of the disputed land of the many flood era battles between the Storm and Sea powers to reclaim the land. And while the Right Arm islands are, while still divided between land and sea, are essentially claimed by Sea, the Left arm islands seem very much still disputed. And the term for land disputed between land and sea is tidal - which is obviously Blue Moon power in Glorantha. The Ingareens arrive there via Waertagi ships, known to be heavily involved in those Air/storm battles. While the blue moon powers are not widely known, because 1) goddess of secrets, right? 2) the ingareens approach these powers sorcerously and 3) no one except Belintar pays much attention to the magical practices of the Ingareens, the tidal powers are significant given at least half of God Forgot is marsh (and without the sea powers to balance). The Ingareens could have learnt about the blue moon powers from Artmali (the Asure fleet could be anywhere on the coast), but more like;y the  Zaranistangi (directly to the east in the god time, directly to the West in the Second age, and we know almost nothing of their actions in between in the pre-dawn and First Age, so quite likely passed through God Forgot at some point). 

[Joerg]

 

The Purification Rune was Chaos, or could be turned into Chaos. Those other bits weren't just cut off, they were annihilated.

Moon wasn't an element when the Zistorites experimented. It was a weird combination of stellar presence, blue glow, and tides. And, as far as the God Learners were concerned, teleportation.

Veldara's blue Moon (people) was associated with one kind of purity: innocence. They got over it, discovering conflict, and finally Chaos, as their weaponry.

The Prince of Sartar page above has the weird combination of a moon rune inside the way more prominent Man Rune that stands for God Forgot.

Western culture is described by two adjectives in the Cults of Terror article basically repeated in the Godtime section of the Guide, and monotheist isn't one of them. These words are Materialist and Humanist. If I had to offer a core rune symbolizing the Materialist approach, I'd probably choose Law since it appears to be the significant sorcery component, and I have a very fitting one for the Humanist approach. This is what we find as the most prominent runes in the octogon of the powers inside that biggest circle representing the protector of God Forgot. The moonish head of the Man rune is shown as an aspect of the Man Rune.

Quite natually, this aspect is what Jar-eel values, and takes home with her.

 

Belintar arrived during the early Second Wane. The cosmos he described had the moons.

The Otherworld which has his palace has a strong presence of the moon - three significant mountains towards the center, one blue when approached from Darkness and Sea, one white when approached from Earth, and one red when approached from Storm and Sky. The Elements all are arranged around the rim of the circular version of the Spiral Map. There also is the 3D version of the map, which has the shape of the water corkscrew, the symbol of the Zistorites.

It is possible that the Zistorites recognized this shape of the Otherworld when they established their presence in Lylket and Locsil. The shape of the Limbo coincides nicely with another symbol of theirs, the scissors.

You could have an impractical but symbolically powerful version of this with the loop and the outer borders of the scissor forming a circle.

 

The astronomical calculator using gears was their third symbol. I doubt that it resembled the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon.

It is possible that some copies of that device made it into Dara Happa, though, and were used by Kana Por.

 

The Wand of the Seven Phases sounds to me like an instrument Kana Por would have made and used. It may have been crucial in the discovery of the Wanes. Afterwards, it may have been more of a curiosity item than a necessary magical implement.

 

[metcalph]

35 minutes ago, davecake said:

i know its three separate sources, Peter, but the history of the wand is the only thing that seems to link them.

Yeah so?  

I feel your alternative explanation is a bit too heavily focused on the origin of the Lunar Powers within God Forgot whereas what I'm looking for is the impact of the Lunar Powers within God Forgot today.   I'm not looking for unconditional acceptance of my theory, I'm looking for interesting interpretations so I can steal bits from them and use them to shore up my theory.

1)  What do the God Forgottens think about the Moon Rune?  What do they use it for?  What do they think of that Big Red Object in the Sky?  

2)  How do the God Forgottens reconcile their Moon Rune faith with their Brithini lifestyle?  Do only the Zzaburi practice it or do they teach it to anybody who wants to know?

3)  How do the God Forgotten reconcile their worship of Belintar with their Brithini lifestyle?  Do they teach their wisdom to others?

4)  What were the antecedents of their Moon Rune worship in the days of the Zistorites and before.

I'm not interested in seeing dour quotations of source material coupled with a timidity to go no further than what the sources say.  That's boring.  You should use the source material as a springboard. (e.g. "The God Forgotten use the Moon Magics through the Eye that Pierces the Veil").  I'm not interested in an explanation for everything - you don't have to explain the wand (I use it because it's the earliest mention of the Machine City and a surprising origin for a Lunar artefact).  You could even use the Spiral Map (I draw the line at it being used as an canonical unchanging refutation with various interpretations not found in the map or the accompanying text).

As for your suggestion that God Forgot is associated with the Moon because of the tides, one of Inolzi the Learned's three devices was the water corkscrew - a mechanical device for raising water from a lower place to a higher one.  It could also be used as a explanation for the origin of the tides (with some difficulty but then early astronomers had epicyles) and a metaphor for the elevation of the soul.

 

 

[metcalph]

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

The Purification Rune was Chaos, or could be turned into Chaos.

And this differs from the Moon Rune in what way?

 

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Western culture is described by two adjectives in the Cults of Terror article basically repeated in the Godtime section of the Guide, and monotheist isn't one of them. These words are Materialist and Humanist. If I had to offer a core rune symbolizing the Materialist approach, I'd probably choose Law since it appears to be the significant sorcery component, and I have a very fitting one for the Humanist approach. This is what we find as the most prominent runes in the octogon of the powers inside that biggest circle representing the protector of God Forgot. The moonish head of the Man rune is shown as an aspect of the Man Rune.

That doesn't answer the more important question of why the Moon Rune is so prominent in God Forgot today and what they use it for.  I don't find your explanation that Man Rune = Humanism to be all that persuasive as Humanism is a Staffordism meaning humans (or rather mortals) should rule and not the gods.  They do so through the use of Magic and Law and not through manipulation of the Man Rune (which isn't widely used for that purpose in the West).  

But to take your point that the Man Rune is important in God Forgot.  What do you think they use it for?  It's not sorcery as they have the Law Rune for that.  Since it's modified by the Moon Rune in the head region, all I can think of is Mindblast.  Coupled with the Eye that Pierces the Veil (Guide p238 and 239) and we have an insanity cult.  But then we run headfirst into the fact that the God Forgottens are Brithini.  So my question is how do the God Forgotten use the Moon and Man Runes within their Brithini lifestyle.?

 

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

The astronomical calculator using gears was their third symbol. I doubt that it resembled the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon.

I think the Wand was a spiritual corkscrew myself.  The Zistorite pointed at people in an attempt to refine their spirit (lift it from a lower place to a higher one).  That it's apparently capable of destructive power is because the Red Moon has manifested and has overloaded the magical connections (which was originally supposed to be used in connection with the Blue Moon) with raw lunar power.

 

 

[Joerg]

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And this differs from the Moon Rune in what way?

This is but one aspect of the Moon Rune, and the only one that applies to God Forgot. This is the link that could be exploited.

Balance? Reflection? Cycles? Tides? None of these are pre-eminent in God Forgot.

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That doesn't answer the more important question of why the Moon Rune is so prominent in God Forgot today and what they use it for.  

That doesn't answer the preliminary question whether the Moon Rune is prominent in God Forgot today at all, or whether it was before Jar-eel absconded with Belintar's moon rune.

My interpretation is that the Moon Rune was important to all the Sixths, if only as the meter of the tides. If Jar-eel's theft of the Moon Rune altered God Forgot, I think we would have read how their identity or their magic changed since 1616. We don't get any such clues.

The logical conclusion seems to be that the Moon Rune was important to Belintar's Holy Country as a whole, and not to the Sixth of God Forgot in particular.

Anything else is circular logic.

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I don't find your explanation that Man Rune = Humanism to be all that persuasive as Humanism is a Staffordism meaning humans (or rather mortals) should rule and not the gods.  They do so through the use of Magic and Law and not through manipulation of the Man Rune (which isn't widely used for that purpose in the West).  

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

But to take your point that the Man Rune is important in God Forgot.  What do you think they use it for?  It's not sorcery as they have the Law Rune for that.  

Man is a tool user. While the Mostali are tools and tool users, the human intellect and inventive urge is well compatible with the Man Rune. Which is mentioned as a special characteristic of these people.

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Since it's modified by the Moon Rune in the head region, all I can think of is Mindblast.  

Sounds like a mad theory, yes.

Light and Dark is another interpretation, as exemplified by the Lady who Giveth and Taketh at Casino Town.

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Coupled with the Eye that Pierces the Veil (Guide p238 and 239) and we have an insanity cult.  

The eye is the centrepiece of the God-Aura of Belintar in the Prince of Sartar depictions.

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Belintar is protected and blessed by several flaming manifestations of the Eye that Pierces the Veils, which enables Belintar to perceive the Otherworld and call upon its powers. The Eye is a common symbol in the Sixth of God Forgot and symbolizes the sorcerous rulers of that land.

It is the symbol for perception and intellect, the parts of the Fire Rune that Veskarthan isn't quite the poster guy for. 

And it can symbolize the Third Eye - the one able to pierce through the veil, a typical accoutrement of mystically aware people and deities.

The Lunar Rune can also stand for perception of this reality and another one. This is so far the best point in favor of connecting God Forgot to the Moon. The Question is: did they lose that ability after Jar-eel left with Belintar's Moon Rune?

 

The relationship between Esvulari and God Forgot remains unclear. We learn about Aeolian fisherfolk in Vizel, rather than a Pelaskite minority as is typical for the coastal cities of Kethaela. The Esvulari appear in the Dawn Age, and are one of five groups of Foreigners covered in Aventus' Foreigner Laws for Hendrikiland.

Quote

The Esvularings were once atheists like the folk of God Forgot,

They aren't given a dawn survival site, unlike the Ingareens, the Harandings or the Ditali.

Their caste system differs strongly from that of the Brithini (and by extension, that of the Ingareens).

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

But then we run headfirst into the fact that the God Forgottens are Brithini.  

To which I say: they aren't. (I know, I used to think that they were.)

The Ingareen survivors at Jon Barat are described as Malkioni who follow the ancient Brithini caste laws. (p.711)

At 200 individuals at the Dawn, they had barely enough people for a sustainable Farmer Caste population, so the adulthood rites must decide over the caste of an individual rather than the paternal caste.

We don't get the information that the Ingareens as a whole are ancient. Centuries-old sorcerers aren't that rare.

I think that most Ingareens have life-spans similar to those of the neighboring Theyalans, or the Malkioni of Seshnela. Their survival as fishers or gatherers of wild plants doesn't sound very caste-conforming to me. (Grain cultivation is typical Dronar activity.) It is possible that they had the Waertagi ship in some Brithini from Arolanit to provide them with a Talar, or that some Brithos emigrants ended up being shipped here rather than to Seshnela, Fronela or Jrustela.

 

We don't learn whether the Ingareens were brought here by Waertagi ships, or whether they were a splinter group that somehow avoided the cacaclysmic end of New Malkonwal of the Fifth Action.

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

So my question is how do the God Forgotten use the Moon and Man Runes within their Brithini lifestyle.?

The Man Rune has always been compatible with the Malkioni lifestyle.

The influence of the Moon Rune must have been small, or we would have been told about their changes after its loss in 1616. We learn about changes in Heortland (due to the return of the Spirit of Freedom, enabling Broyan to invoke the Vingkotling kingship, and the subsequent death of Orngerin in 1617).

The Lunar invasion restores the Moon Rune to Heortland, but not to any other of the Sixths. Fazzur's attempt to establish the moon in Esrolia (which might have been in keeping with Jar-eel's designs) are neglected in favor of Tatius' plans.

There is no attempt to conquer God Forgot or even the mainland region of the Bandori Valley and Refuge. (Unless you are an old fan of Asprin's Thieves World anthologies, with a Tarshite Prince Orontes of Tarsh War notoriety and five Yanafali bodyguards entering there as Imperial authority.) The big price is undoubtedly Esrolia with Nochet, but the Bandori were just a day's ride from Fazzur's most advanced elements.

 

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think the Wand was a spiritual corkscrew myself.  The Zistorite pointed at people in an attempt to refine their spirit (lift it from a lower place to a higher one).  That it's apparently capable of destructive power is because the Red Moon has manifested and has overloaded the magical connections (which was originally supposed to be used in connection with the Blue Moon) with raw lunar power.

I think the wand is a piece of Lunar artificery, possibly in imitation of the astronomical calculator of the Machine Ruins. It might be a prototype, it might be one of several such items used by Imperial chronomancers. It may have found its way to the ruins of Locsil after Hon-eel's coup in Tarsh. (It would have been hard to travel through Dragon Pass earlier, though not impossible.)

[metcalph]

On 09/09/2017 at 4:12 AM, Joerg said:

This is but one aspect of the Moon Rune, and the only one that applies to God Forgot. This is the link that could be exploited.

Balance? Reflection? Cycles? Tides? None of these are pre-eminent in God Forgot.

Joerg, I just wanted a theory.  My questions were things that I felt your or anybody else's theory should address (I don't care whether the theory is right or wrong, I just want something that I can digest without having go back several post to find out what the subject of exchange was).

I don't think the digressions about the the relationship between the Esvulari and the Intagreens at the Dawn are helpful as that's ancient history.  What I want to know is what you think the God Forgottens are like *today*.  The Esvulari are irrelevant as they don't do Moon Rune Magic.

Insofar as I can work out, you believe that the Moon Rune Cult was imposed upon God Forgot by Belintar and they can no longer do it now because Belintar is dead and JarEel stole his Moon Magics.

You also think the effects of the Moon Rune was largely tidal in origin and common to all the Holy Country.

You think the Man Rune was important in God Forgot because it denotes tool use and you think the Moon Rune was used to see in another reality (such as the Eye that Pierces the Veil).

Alright so far?  (I can see but not going to comment on apparent contradictions for now).  

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Joerg, I just wanted a theory. 

Ok.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

My questions were things that I felt your or anybody else's theory should address (I don't care whether the theory is right or wrong, I just want something that I can digest without having go back several post to find out what the subject of exchange was).

I don't think the digressions about the the relationship between the Esvulari and the Intagreens at the Dawn are helpful as that's ancient history.  What I want to know is what you think the God Forgottens are like *today*.  The Esvulari are irrelevant as they don't do Moon Rune Magic.

I think that the God Forgot sorcerers never had Moon Rune magic.

The God Forgotten are materialists - alchemists as in artificers and inventors when not pursuing more profane activities of producing food and other necessities. This includes fishing and agriculture.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Insofar as I can work out, you believe that the Moon Rune Cult was imposed upon God Forgot by Belintar and they can no longer do it now because Belintar is dead and JarEel stole his Moon Magics.

Not quite. I said that if Belintar had identified the God Forgot Sixth with the not-quite element of Moon (which is but one possibility) then Jar-eel absconding with the Moon Rune would have to have effects on their magic.

To repeat, I don't see much evidence for the Moon Rune having a major influence on the Sixth of God Forgot. I am trying to find an apology for its visible presence in Prince of Sartar.

Other than the personal magics of the God Forgotten, Belintar might have tied a runic Moon connection to the Land. Usually I would identify the Lady Who Giveth and Taketh Away of Casino Town with the Luck Rune of Asrelia and by extension Esrola, but the same descriptor could also be attached to the Balancer, an aspect of the Moon Rune.

The Tidal connection is a connection to the coast line rather than to the land. This still is a valid descriptor for an archipelago. On the other hand, the Pelaskites elsewhere in the Holy Country have stronger tidal magics than the God Forgotten, unless the God Forgotten share some of the Waertagi magics. The absence of Tidal Waves in the Machine War suggests that they didn't, then, and probably had no chance to aquire since the Closing struck.

IMO the Purification Rune was revealed to be the Chaos Rune rather than the Moon Rune (which was mostly irrelevant  prior to 1220 outside of the context of the tides).

Belintar's uses of the God Learner inheritance doesn't seem to include access to the hidden artifacts of Machine Ruin or Zistorite magics, although he cultivates Middle Sea Empire administration and architecture. There are no clues that he cultivates the Purification Rune magic - his way is more inclusion and assimilation than separation.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

You also think the effects of the Moon Rune was largely tidal in origin and common to all the Holy Country.

That's my main explanation for Belintar's possession of the Moon Rune. His raising of Loon Island sounds like tidal magic, and it appears to affect all of the Sixths equally.

It is true that Belintar came only after the Red Moon had risen, so the presence of the moon was there before he instituted his Holy Country over the Shadowlands and adjacent parts, so one could make the argument that Moon could be recognized as a sixth element. But is this notion of moon as an element supported by any of the people in the Holy Country?

The Zzaburi elemental magics rely heavily on the pentagram in Zzabur's Sigil. The God Forgot wizards like Carvak Zirian wouldn't change their magic to please Belintar.

 

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

You think the Man Rune was important in God Forgot because it denotes tool use and you think the Moon Rune was used to see in another reality (such as the Eye that Pierces the Veil).

Alright so far?  (I can see but not going to comment on apparent contradictions for now).  

Mostly, yes. The Moon Rune inscribed in the head of the Man Rune could be an expression of the Otherworld perception, the Eye that Pierces the Veil.

On the other hand, that symbol does remind me of the RuneQuest Sight that a significant portion of the God Learner Magics were based upon.

 

[Joerg]

To separate the hunt for the moon connection from "who are the God Forgotten today", I wonder whether the God Forgotten practice the Brithini caste system as a whole or whether just their rulers, sorcerers and defenders do.

The Brithini exiles around 632 ST and again during Triosos' reign shortly (40 years) before the Closing joined the religion based on the Abiding Book and became a somewhat distributed minority in Seshnela (and according to at least the Jrustela Book by Mongoose also on Jrustela), notable mostly for their slow aging.

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God Forgot armies consist entirely of members of their soldier caste (called “Horali”). They are extremely well-armored but rely heavily upon crossbows and disciplined formations.

So at least the soldiers are organized along strict caste distinction. I guess the same goes for the Zzaburi and the Talar(i). Not sure about the rest, though.

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God Forgot - Its name comes from the wail of its inhabitants, called the Ingareens, at the Dawn, who long bemoaned the loss of their favorite deity. They did not understand the nature of the disaster which beset them and developed, instead, a rabid atheistic belief.

Elsewhere [p.711] we learn that they were some form of Malkioni at the Dawn.

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When the Jrusteli culture touched them in the Second Age, they bloomed with the new mysteries unveiled before them. They developed and worshiped remarkable machines never before seen, or even imagined. 

This sounds as if the Ingareens were the carrying force of the Machine City, rather than the Reconstructionalists from all over the Middle Sea Empire.

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Going beyond even the hubris of the God Learners, these sorcerers constructed the God Machine Zistor that would purify the world.

I would prefer to interprete "these sorcerers" as "the Reconstructionalists" rather than "the Ingareen inventors", but this text seems to put the blame entirely on the Ingareens.

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The people who survive in God Forgot retained their individual nature and are considered weirdly different by others in the world. But they are a small population and considered less harmful than they used to be.

"Retained their individual nature." I take this as a contradiction of the strict Brithini caste life, which is why I don't see the majority of the God Forgotten as imitation of the Brithini.

I am unclear whether it was sorcerers or a general movement in the population that flooded God Forgot with the inventions of the Second Age, or possibly still does.

Leonardo, the Talar and Belintar's advisor Carvak Zirion remain the only God Forgot individuals named or mentioned anywhere.

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The people of God Forgot are now ruled by ancient immortals using the Brithini forms of life and government. Their ruler is called the Talar, and he is advised by wizards, guarded by staunch soldiers, and supported by loyal farmers. The Talar loyally supported Belintar (whose appearance was predicted by his wizards).

I see a possibility that the God Forgotten imported their Brithini rulers and soldiers rather than them being a native part of their culture. The description of Refuge might be read as support to this view (p.257):

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 This city in God Forgot is a Brithini outpost which continues its tenuous existence using the old caste systems of Brithos. Cautious and defensive, the people are ancient and canny politicians and rarely act rashly. The city has an ancient alliance with a tribe of Esvularing peoples called the Bandori. Beginning in 1620, a flood of refugees from Heortland has swollen the city’s population.

Then there is Casino Town:

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This well-fortified enclave in the God Forgot Islands exists to provide gambling facilities. Its patron spirit is Our Lady of Credit (“She giveth and she taketh away”).

The public face of God Forgot - the one place everybody has heard about, an enclave in their islands. About as typical for the land as Las Vegas for all of North America.

Perhaps the place that has the most Lunar expression of all of God Forgot, as discussed above.

Jon Barat aka Talar Hold 

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Called Jon Barat by the locals, this ancient settlement is the home of the secretive and immortal ruler of God Forgot.

The secretive and immortal ruler may be an Ingareen, or it may be an imported Talar from e.g. Arolanit or Brithos. A population of 200 at the Dawn won't be able to support three unproductive hereditary endogamous castes (or two, the wizards will be able to support production), even if the soldiers could go to war against fish or venison at a huge stretch. Unless a single Talar family was kept immortal, they would die out in less than three generations.I didn't get the impression that the Ingareens were particularly long-lived. Sorcerers have other ways to achieve that, though.

(On the other hand, the Arolanit Brithini let themselves be annexed shortly before the Closing, and emerged as stuck-up ancient Brithini from the experience in the Third Age.)

Comparison to the Esvulari (whose caste system is known as hereditary with strictly in-caste procreation, and known for being odd in the absence of the Warrior Caste) could be relevant if the God Forgotten system stems from the same (Grey Age) root. Or if both Ingareens and Esvulari inherited practices from the Middle Sea Empire during the time of Slontos and Zistorite presence in the region.

 

The relationship between the Esvulari, the God Forgotten and the Brithini rulers of Refuge isn't quite clear.

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Bandori: This Esvularing tribe has an ancient alliance with the sorcerers who rule the city of Refuge. The Lunar conquest of Heortland did not extend to the Bandori, who maintain a tenuous independence from the Empire.

Is Refuge an Ingareen city, or is it a Brithini outpost seeded by the Waertagi? Does the Talar of Jon Barat direct the leaders in Refuge?

While Refuge lacks as impressive a city castle as Sog City, I get the impression that the Zzaburi of the city play a similar role.

 

Even though Refuge clearly is the place where Greg's house campaign playtested the Thieves World box Chaosium produced in the eighties, I'll try and keep the elements I would like to find there again out of this collection of God Forgotten facts. As I said before, I am anything but certain that the Brithini here are Ingareens, or that the God Forgotten make up a major portion of the non-Brithini (or Brithini-like) population. For me, it is an Esvularing and to slightly lesser degree Heortling and Pelaskite settlement under control of its immortal guardians from Brithos. Praxians (Praxian renegades), sailors from all over the continent, and escapees finding sanctuary within the city limits make up a colorful and unruly foreign component of the place.

Of all the God Forgot locations, Talar Hold appears to be the most normal. The typical God Forgotten might still be the fishermen in their sea-metal-hulled steam "jet" boats, or the farmers and harvesters of wild resources (seabird eggs, wild vegetable, fruit or grain) on the mainland. Possibly with combing harvesters like the ones used for the cranberry paddies, reduced to the technology of the grain combs used by the Romans on their Gallic slave plantations. If an agricultural process can be done with gears, levers and other such implements, at least some God Forgotten ought to have prototypes in use to do so.

I am inclined to make their agriculture somewhat different from that of the Theyalans. I think they might grow flax, both for linen and for linseed. They might have some olive trees and grow some wine.

[David Scott]

Looking at the bigger magical picture of what Belintar did with the sixths, presents the idea that the elemental association with the land was already present. I find it hard to believe that Belintar overlaid a whole new system, he just brought it together and fine tuned it. We know that the moon rune was present in Glorantha before the Dawn and not in the form of the Red Goddess. In print we have three coloured moons and a number of old moon associated goddesses. The Red goddess and the Blue moon are just two aspect of the moon. Likewise we are told it's the Lunars who claim that the Moon rune is an element. Of course the storm pantheon dispute this, but actually it is an element. We know for example that some Praxians can have this as a dominant rune and nothing to do with the Lunars. With the Lunars gone, the Moon rune will still appear. We know nothing of the sorcerous schools of of the Ingareen's, but I suspect there is a slight bent towards moon magic. Perhaps just more grimoires that you'd expect. But they will be there. In theory there could be a Moon magic school. What it would teach perhaps has nothing in common with the Blue and red forms of moon magic currently in print. Another angle could be - what if there is a physical Moon component to the land, a long dead moon god / goddess that fell to the ground much like the blue moon did. As dead, only the body survives, no names or connections. Moon sorcery works better here due to this connection and more people are born with the moon rune as dominant.

With Belintar gone, the moon magics funnelled towards the city of wonders reassert themselves across the land and normal service is resumed as since the dawn.

Another important point with the runes and art. As they are interesting shapes, they will be combined in to interesting arty styles. Kalin's superb renditions of Belintar are arty insights to the otherworld of Belintar. The Man rune with the Moon rune head within the Law rune has echoes of the Vitruvian Man and also of Pavis. It also could be interpreted that the Ingareen's are moon rune dominant human sorcerers, which I would certainly go for, but with no connections to the Blue and Red Moon. None of this will change anything written in the God Forgot section.

[David Scott]

Just looking back over PoS - Carvak Zirian is Blue - http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/31-harbinger-of-the-end/

I've just reread that whole chapter and it's still excellent! It also has an interesting comment by @Charles and a reply by @Jeff which is linked to here:

https://plus.google.com/101223324205853115305/posts/Y99dVsCUXTf

 

[jajagappa]

51 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Another angle could be - what if there is a physical Moon component to the land, a long dead moon god / goddess that fell to the ground much like the blue moon did. As dead, only the body survives, no names or connections.

I like this personally.  And it could be that this is part of some early Golden Age period, but then rebelled or defied the Emperor and was brought down and cast out (and insignificant to the Emperor as a whole).

53 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Moon sorcery works better here due to this connection and more people are born with the moon rune as dominant.

Especially since Moon is connected with Magic skills (per RQ Quickstart).

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Just looking back over PoS - Carvak Zirian is Blue - http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/31-harbinger-of-the-end/

I've just reread that whole chapter and it's still excellent! It also has an interesting comment by @Charles and a reply by @Jeff which is linked to here:

https://plus.google.com/101223324205853115305/posts/Y99dVsCUXTf

 

The Charles comment refers to the Hepherones' section in Arcane Lore.  It will also be in the Glorantha Sourcebook but Hepherones is now a Carmanian mystic of Ganbarri circa 1200.

[metcalph]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

The God Forgotten are materialists - alchemists as in artificers and inventors when not pursuing more profane activities of producing food and other necessities. This includes fishing and agriculture.

I'm more inclined to think the God Forgotten don't grow food and other activities because it just seems wrong with how they are described ("are considered weirdly different by others in the world "). Following the example of Smith and Tinker (Guide p212 of Akem), I think Leonardo is of the Commoner Caste rather than being a Zzaburi.   

Rather than going out on their own to herd oxen to farm in the fields, the God Forgotten farmers are more inclined to craft golems from clay to do all the menial work.  Where would they get the clay?  By harvesting the sand and using alchemy.  The golems are of fleeting quality, have to be supervised and rarely last more than a season before falling to pieces or running amok.  Hence the God Forgotten spend their days making golems to do all the menial work required by their superiors.  

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Belintar's uses of the God Learner inheritance doesn't seem to include access to the hidden artifacts of Machine Ruin or Zistorite magics, although he cultivates Middle Sea Empire administration and architecture.

Apart from the Magic Road ending at the Machine Ruins?  (Guide p254)

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are no clues that he cultivates the Purification Rune magic - his way is more inclusion and assimilation than separation.

I fear you have become too focused on a dictionary definition of Purification and use that to rigidly dismiss other possibilities.  The Purification Rune was to reverse the process of Devolution to be closer to God (Middle Sea Empire p46).  It does not entail by that definition the removal impure bits through separation (that would be the Death Rune).  One can become closer to God through an general elevation of the spirit from a lower state to a higher one (which is why I mentioned the water corkscrew before).

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

But is this notion of moon as an element supported by any of the people in the Holy Country?

It is supported through the imagery of Belintar in the Prince of Sartar Webzine.  Even if the Zzaburi of God Forgot were to stubbornly insist that it is not an element, pretty much everybody else in the Holy Country who follows Belintar would treat it as an element.  

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Zzaburi elemental magics rely heavily on the pentagram in Zzabur's Sigil. The God Forgot wizards like Carvak Zirian wouldn't change their magic to please Belintar.

Unless they were already acquainted with the Moon Rune and Belintar burrowed from their lore

 

 

[metcalph]

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

I see a possibility that the God Forgotten imported their Brithini rulers and soldiers rather than them being a native part of their culture.

In which case they would have been described as Brithini rulers lording it over a native population, rather than a population following the Brithini forms of life and government.

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

A population of 200 at the Dawn won't be able to support three unproductive hereditary endogamous castes (or two, the wizards will be able to support production),

The Brithini do not have endogamous castes.   According to Greg, when a woman has children, the first son is a farmer, the second a fighter, the third a Talar and the fourth a Zzaburi.  Then the process starts over again.  

 

[metcalph]

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

 In theory there could be a Moon magic school. What it would teach perhaps has nothing in common with the Blue and red forms of moon magic currently in print.

I generally agree.  I really see many framgented magic practices.  Any overall unity or philosophy was destroyed by the fall of the Machine City and the God Forgotten have no desire to rebuild their unity.  Being sorcerous minded, they recognize four stages of lunar energies - the black, the blue, the red and the white.  The Dark is to be avoided while the White is desired.  For a long time, they were stuck in the blue magic zone and have within the past few centuries been cautiously exploring the red.  The current oscillations of the Red Moon between Red and Black are a sign of its corruption and perversity (then again they may just be saying that so the local Orlanthi won't hit them on sight).    The difference in colour of their moon magics and that of the Lunar Empire is a reflection of their philosophical differences.

I think the astronomical calculator of Inolzi (KoS p80) is an attempt to calculate the pattern of the Blue Moon within the Sky (rising only when the Constellation of Lorion is directly in the East - Guide p648) and that the God Forgotten still use this to calculate auspicious times and avoid doing anything except casting protective spells when the streak happens or when the Red Moon is dark.

The Eye that Pierces the Veil.  Originally a magic designed to see the unseeable Blue Moon in the Sky.  The caster feels their eyes grow immense and course with magical power (whereas oblivious outsiders only remark that the caster's eyes seem a bit bloodshot).  Since the rise of the Red Moon, the psychedelic visions have become more intense and the position of seer has become restricted only to those of strong moral fibre or those who can function while totally burned out.  The God Forgotten also teach a variation of this spell which makes Belintar visible to the caster and also onto the otherside.

The Elevation of the Spirit.  This takes a person's fluids and through careful treatments via a water corkscrew elevates it in quality to a more magical spirit. The spirit can be re-consumed, given to another or used to animate an human statue for a while.   Animated statues and people under the influence of such spirits are filled with lunar energies that are slowly degraded through repeated Blue Streaks and Black Moon Days.

The Strength of Lorion - as well as being a simple strength spell, the magic is used when Lorian is in the east to lift the soul upwards.  Being mortals, the process is far longer than the Blue Moon's rise into the sky and nobody has even reached the Celestial City through this magic alone.   People who have reached the Middle Heavens are notably more adept in wielding lunar energies but they are more vulnerable to the Blue Streak and Black Moon Days.

Most of these magics would be practiced by all castes (most God Forgottenwould know one, some may know two, rarely three).  The Zzaburi concern themselves with the practice of general sorcery

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Eye that Pierces the Veil.  Originally a magic designed to see the unseeable Blue Moon in the Sky.  The caster feels their eyes grow immense and course with magical power (whereas oblivious outsiders only remark that the caster's eyes seem a bit bloodshot).  Since the rise of the Red Moon, the psychedelic visions have become more intense and the position of seer has become restricted only to those of strong moral fibre or those who can function while totally burned out.  The God Forgotten also teach a variation of this spell which makes Belintar visible to the caster and also onto the otherside.

I like this!  

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Strength of Lorion - as well as being a simple strength spell, the magic is used when Lorian is in the east to lift the soul upwards.  Being mortals, the process is far longer than the Blue Moon's rise into the sky and nobody has even reached the Celestial City through this magic alone.   People who have reached the Middle Heavens are notably more adept in wielding lunar energies but they are more vulnerable to the Blue Streak and Black Moon Days.

I could readily see a great invocation of this as part of the effort to raise the Sky Ship.  I could also imagine that one reason that no one has reached the Celestial City is that you need the Boat Planet to help carry you along the river fast enough.