Moon and Pamaltela

[hkokko]

Glorantha being flat - how would Moon and its phases be visible in Pamaltela (especially in general region of Fonrit)... Similarly to Dragon Pass or different? 

Would like to see Full Moon from Loral for a reason....

[Yelm's Light]

Assuming it works as it would in reality, since the Red Moon hovers over the Lunar Empire, it should appear at least slightly smaller to an observer on the southern continent, and the viewing angle would most likely be different (unless the observer was in line with both Dragon Pass and the Red Moon, in which case he would have to be somewhere on or near the East Isles).  Apparent size would depend on the relative distances of Dragon Pass and the observer's viewpoint, and also the Red Moon's height above Glorantha; the higher it is, the less the change in size.  I'd also expect that the phase would be different, again depending on the observer's position on Pamaltela.

Of course, someone will probably come up with a magical/mythical reason why I'm wrong...

Edited January 22, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[Joerg]

Most of Pamaltela should see the Lunar phases on the same days like Dragon Pass does. The angular elevation of the Red Moon should be the same everywhere outside the Glowline. The usual assumptions for mountains hiding the moon should apply, too. Even the size should be the same. The reason for this pretty much seems to be that the Middle and Upper Sky have basically the same distance to any place in the Middle World, so neither parallax nor triangulation provide any meaningful measurements. When the way you look at the sky changes, you are approaching the Outer Worlds, whether on extreme mountaintops like Kerofin or Top of the World or approaching Sramak's River. There may be some extreme East Isles where you get to see the sun rise in the southeast or northeast.

The moon being tied to the Crater may be the sole exception to this Middle Sky business, and while elevation and size probably aren't affected in any way, the equatorial Lunar poles (strange, but real concept) you are facing do change, and the angle on the map probably does change, too. As a navigation aid, this might work best in the northern Kahar Sea or in the Neliomi, but for most of the seas the changes in relation to the Sunpath termini won't be measurable to sufficient accuracy.

Inside the Silver Shadow and its extension through the Glowline, perception of the moon is quite different, but that has little to no bearing for Pamaltela (yet - who knows whether or when Fonrit will get its own Glowline, and what color it will be).

 

[jeffjerwin]

Speaking of which there is a whole different Blue Moon mythology down there.

How do they connect Vendara (the Blue Moon, mother of the Artmali) with the now visible Red Moon? I've seen some stuff on the digest, but I'm not sure how canonical it is.

[Joerg]

I think the Artmali and other Blue Moon worshippers do profit from the Lunar energies in some way, but they don't have a place for that distant Red Moon in their stories. If they wanted a red moon, they could have taken Artia all along. (Artia was described as a moon in several ancient documents.)

The Ytarians of Afadjann may have had a different relevation, but that's not really my home corner.

[Psullie]

the phases of the Red Moon differ from place to place once outside the glow line, when it's Full in one area it may be half-full in another. Also Dark and dying moons are all but invisible, and crescents not very bright - the Red moon would only be visible half the time, 

As for the Blue moon, just because they share the word Moon doesn't necessarily mean that they would associate the two (a bit like thinking Koala's are actually bears). The Red Moon is new and in the Middle Air, the Blue Moon is a celestial body from the God Time. Also the Red Moon is regular with a seven day cycle, the Blue Streak follows a pattern known only to her. The fact that both have a visible effect on the tides is also coincidence. 

[Joerg]

37 minutes ago, Psullie said:

the phases of the Red Moon differ from place to place once outside the glow line, when it's Full in one area it may be half-full in another. Also Dark and dying moons are all but invisible, and crescents not very bright - the Red moon would only be visible half the time, 

As for the Blue moon, just because they share the word Moon doesn't necessarily mean that they would associate the two (a bit like thinking Koala's are actually bears). The Red Moon is new and in the Middle Air, the Blue Moon is a celestial body from the God Time. Also the Red Moon is regular with a seven day cycle, the Blue Streak follows a pattern known only to her. The fact that both have a visible effect on the tides is also coincidence. 

The Red Moon doesn't have any influence on the seas (and how should it, sitting still in the sky?). The Moonbroth cycle has always been a mystery to me, but Glorantha averages two tides a week.

The 7 day week cycle of the Theyalans is based on the 7 days of visibility of Orlanth's Ring and then 7 days of doing stuff outside of the star dome. Nothing Lunar about that.

The Lunar energies are at an almost zero in the dark and dying phases, but the visibilty is pretty much there. Full moon gives everything a reddish tint in the nights, while less than half moon barely offers much to see by, but looking directly into the glow will clearly make the glowing parts of the moon visible.

[Roko Joko]

Reasons to say whatever you want:

• You can cite the lore that it looks bigger in the empire to say it can looks different elsewhere.  The moon is an illusion anyway.
• You can say light curves because why else would there appear to be a horizon?  You can answer other celestial questions the same way.
• You can say light curves and/or celestial space curves because it's in the outer world, so it doesn't have to follow normal rules.

But if and when you just want Euclidean geometry, I say the sun path is a circle of radius 2500 miles (or whatever), and the moon appears to be the same size as the sun.  And, I thought I had some reason to conclude that the moon is both half as far away as the sun and half as large, but now that I think about it maybe I didn't... but in any case, it's easy to remember.  Anyway if you have the height you can calculate the angle.  (Using straight Euclidean geometry for that works out a little weird though, because then many people would see the sun pretty low in the sky if its path really is a circle.  I believe people came up with weird non-Euclidean theories on the old mailing list for that reason.)

About the phases, I don't see why they wouldn't be the same as in Genertela.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Roko Joko

[Psullie]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Red Moon doesn't have any influence on the seas (and how should it, sitting still in the sky?). The Moonbroth cycle has always been a mystery to me, but Glorantha averages two tides a week.

I was previously under the impression that the tides were only influenced by the Blue Moon who has an erratic pattern, hence unpredictable tides. But (and I can't remember the reference so perhaps I'm mistaken) that the Red Moon does exert some influence...

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The 7 day week cycle of the Theyalans is based on the 7 days of visibility of Orlanth's Ring and then 7 days of doing stuff outside of the star dome. Nothing Lunar about that.

The Lunar energies are at an almost zero in the dark and dying phases, but the visibilty is pretty much there. Full moon gives everything a reddish tint in the nights, while less than half moon barely offers much to see by, but looking directly into the glow will clearly make the glowing parts of the moon visible.

I didn't say the Red Moon caused the 7 day week, only that it follows it. Perhaps its a subtle concession to Orlanth's power over the Goddess. 

Guide to Glorantha, Page  648: 

"Over the course of a week, the Red Moon slowly turns through her cycle of phases. One face of the moon is bright red, the other is black. As the cycle progresses the red face wanes, replaced by darkness creeping around it. The darkness grows to cover half the moon, then three quarters, until the last crescent of red moonlight disappears. The names of the Lunar phases are: Black Moon, Crescent-Coming, Empty Half, Full Moon, Full Half, Crescent-Going and Dying Moon.

When the moon is dark (the Dying and Black phases), it can be seen only faintly by observers within the Glowline; it is no longer visible outside. It remains dark for two days, after which the red light creeps in again and waxes to full. An entire lunar cycle takes seven days and nights."

[jeffjerwin]

Perhaps 7 is simply the magic number of the Middle Air?

Each other part of the universe has a magic number (I think/intuit), after all; Earth is probably 4.

[kalidor]

Hello,

I have a question from my players that i dont know how to answer.

Whats the difference between  the "balance power" of the moon rune and what Harmony rune does?

 

Thanks.

[Roko Joko]

harmony is associated with music, healing, and peace, with the heortling story of umath using harmony as a weapon as a prominent exception.  I think you you could interpret all three associations in terms of balance.

moon balance is associated with cycles and is more destructive, like with the lunar goddess whose body has black and white halves, or the idea of the red moon's destruction being expected and desired.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Roko Joko said:

moon balance is associated with cycles and is more destructive

e.g. one aspect would be alternating between Disorder and Harmony.  The Lunars might say that Harmony without Disorder cannot be, while those devoted to Harmony would focus on trying to remove Disorder altogether.

[Roko Joko]

Yes, although to elaborate on that, Jar-Eel is both the prime demigod of the Red Goddess and (according to some speculative lore from Sandy I think?) the one true Harmony rune avatar.  So certainly devoted to Harmony... just in a Lunar way.  Maybe a Disorder rune champion rises after Harrek kills her.  Not that Harrek isn't disorderly and he dies with her in a way (a balance rather than a cycle), but that same avatar lore say's he's the Death avatar, so.

It's kind of like tarot cards or astrology, you can interpret the symbols different ways.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Roko Joko