RQG: Problem of Elemental Rune Wheel (Pentagram).

[hanataka]

There is an inconsistency about the Elemental Rune wheels do not match.

This is Zzabur's Sigil (Guide to Glorantha Vol.1 p.148)

 

RuneQuest: Glorantha  p.8 Runes (Introduction)
The Elemental Runes are commonly conceived as being arranged on a wheel, where Fire/Sky is overcome by Water, Water by Air, Air by Earth, Earth by Darkness, and Darkness by Fire/Sky before the wheel cycles again.

Runes on page 8 perfectly match that of Zzabur's Sigil on GtG.

 

p.382 The Elemental Runes (Sorcery Chapter)
Sorcerers arrange the Elemental Runes into a pentagram called Zzabur's Sigil.

Darkness: Its minor Runes are Earth and Air.
Water: Its minor Runes are Air and Fire/Sky.
Earth: Its minor Runes are Darkness and Fire/Sky.
Fire/Sky: Its minor Runes are Water and Earth.   
Air: Its minor Runes are Water and Darkness.  

the Rune relation on Page 382 does not match Zzabur's Sigil on GtG (Despite claims that it is Zzabur's Sigil)

 

Official Caracter Sheet:

the runes on the character sheet also have different relations. (This may be the complement of p.382)

 

Is this difference intentional?
Or, should runes on p.382 and character sheet be modified according to GtG?
 

[David Scott]

There are many forms of these rune representations and they have different purposes and explanations. The arrangement of elements around the outside can vary, as can the centre rune. These may also be power runes in the inner ring. Schools and cults have various versions this. Here's a version from 1993 that I was discussing with Sandy Petersen:

[styopa]

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There are many forms of these rune representations and they have different purposes and explanations. The arrangement of elements around the outside can vary, as can the centre rune. These may also be power runes in the inner ring. Schools and cults have various versions this. Here's a version from 1993 that I was discussing with Sandy Petersen:

Agree completely canonically, but would argue that for RQG as a product it needs to be ONE consistent map of relationships.

[soltakss]

I think the Sorcery diagram is different to the other rune diagram, as it looks at different things.

However, assuming the cross lines of the pentagram in the OP indicate sub-runes, the text and diagrams do not agree. However, it is not really clear if that is the case, as the diagram itself does not explain much.

The Rune Order certainly agrees across all of them, i.e. Air trumps Fire/Sky, Fire/Sky trumps Darkness and so on. 

[Joerg]

The sequence of the seasons doesn't correspond to any of these systems, either... Sea - Fire - Earth - Dark - Storm - (Sacred)

Zzabur's sigil has the elemental superiority sequence: Darkness eats Earth nags Storm churns Water quenches Fire burns Darkness

 

The sequence of elemental ages is yet different (with Darkness appearing twice, before the Seas, and after Storm). Dark -> Sea -> Earth -> Fire -> Storm -> Dark -> Chaos 

(If you eliminate the second Dark, you get the sequence of the Theyalan week days: Freeze (Dark), Water, Clay, Fire, Winds, Wild, Gods

Unless you count the Flood as the age of the Seas, which gives you Earth -> Fire -> Storm (can possibly be skipped) -> Sea -> Storm (again) -> Dark -> Chaos

 

The character sheet sequence of the pentagram is yet another. Air trumps Fire? Then why was Umath/Umatum dismembered by Jagrekriand/Shargash? (And when did we first learn about this?)

 

Edit: Missing the obvious here: the RQG arrangement is the vertical arrangement of the elements in the cosmos.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Joerg
Missing the obvious

[David Scott]

50 minutes ago, styopa said:

but would argue that for RQG as a product it needs to be ONE consistent map of relationships.

Lets wait until more sorcery schools appear. I'm sure they will have different needs and they will be inconsistent with each other.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The sequence of the seasons doesn't correspond to any of these systems, either... Sea - Fire - Earth - Dark - Storm - (Sacred)

Zzabur's sigil has the elemental superiority sequence: Darkness eats Earth nags Storm churns Water quenches Fire burns Darkness

 

The sequence of elemental ages is yet different (with Darkness appearing twice, before the Seas, and after Storm). Dark -> Sea -> Earth -> Fire -> Storm -> Dark -> Chaos 

(If you eliminate the second Dark, you get the sequence of the Theyalan week days: Freeze (Dark), Water, Clay, Fire, Winds, Wild, Gods

Unless you count the Flood as the age of the Seas, which gives you Earth -> Fire -> Storm (can possibly be skipped) -> Sea -> Storm (again) -> Dark -> Chaos

 

The character sheet sequence of the pentagram is yet another. Air trumps Fire? Then why was Umath/Umatum dismembered by Jagrekriand/Shargash? (And when did we first learn about this?)

 

It's almost like this whole thing was cooked up by some Beloit College stoner in his dorm room, and mythological consistency wasn't a huge priority....

[Jeff]

Both elemental wheels are correct.

[Psullie]

14 minutes ago, styopa said:

It's almost like this whole thing was cooked up by some Beloit College stoner in his dorm room, and mythological consistency wasn't a huge priority....

who says myth needs to be consistent 

[Madrona]

You know at first glance, I thought you were totally wrong

4 hours ago, hanataka said:

There is an inconsistency about the Elemental Rune wheels do not match.

This is Zzabur's Sigil (Guide to Glorantha Vol.1 p.148)

p.382 The Elemental Runes (Sorcery Chapter)
Sorcerers arrange the Elemental Runes into a pentagram called Zzabur's Sigil.

Darkness: Its minor Runes are Earth and Air.
Water: Its minor Runes are Air and Fire/Sky.
Earth: Its minor Runes are Darkness and Fire/Sky.
Fire/Sky: Its minor Runes are Water and Earth.   
Air: Its minor Runes are Water and Darkness. 
 

I was confused here till I looked it up, you left out the key part.

"Sorcerers arrange the Elemental Runes into a pentagram
called Zzabur’s Sigil. Each Rune is thereby connected to
two others—these are its minor Runes"

The elemental weakness from one to the next doesn't seem to be an error. (As the RQG book is not talking about susceptibility of elements to each other) but the makeup of the pentagram. My assumption is the GTG pentagram is showing a sorcerous relationship of elemental trump, and, well. The pentagram is meaningless in that context except as decoration.

On the other hand, the Minor Runes are the reason for the original pentagram, and the two are not reconcilable if we assume the Zzabur's Sigil in GTG is supposed to be the Zzabur's Sigil described in RQG.

Therefore, I think...
They're not representing the same thing. Basically, the book is written from a God Learner sort of perspective (from the 4th age). I think its a recreation of Zzabur's Sigil that was only concerned with elemental trumps and dismissed minor runes as unimportant.

This one is Rokari and is probably taking pentagram symbolism (from a version of Zzazabur's Sigil) for ornamental and instructional purposes. And is not confering minor rune relationships.

Or, the sorcerors of Lunar Tarsh, Sable Riders and of Dragon Pass in general do not agree with Rokari symbolism.

(I think the wheel on the character sheet isn't representing  anything related to Zzabur's Sigil, relationships could make some amount of sense. I.E. Fire>dark>water>earth>air, Darkness prevents light's touch. Water keeps darkness down deep into hell. Water's domain is ended by earth, and air is what separates Earth from the sky, (and Fire is what is above the sky) Or some other ~spiritual~ or non-materialistic relationship.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Madrona said:

You know at first glance, I thought you were totally wrong

I was confused here till I looked it up, you left out the key part.

"Sorcerers arrange the Elemental Runes into a pentagram
called Zzabur’s Sigil. Each Rune is thereby connected to
two others—these are its minor Runes"

The elemental weakness from one to the next doesn't seem to be an error. (As the RQG book is not talking about susceptibility of elements to each other) but the makeup of the pentagram. My assumption is the GTG pentagram is showing a sorcerous relationship of elemental trump, and, well. The pentagram is meaningless in that context except as decoration.

On the other hand, the Minor Runes are the reason for the original pentagram, and the two are not reconcilable if we assume the Zzabur's Sigil in GTG is supposed to be the Zzabur's Sigil described in RQG.

Therefore, I think...
They're not representing the same thing. Basically, the book is written from a God Learner sort of perspective (from the 4th age). I think its a recreation of Zzabur's Sigil that was only concerned with elemental trumps and dismissed minor runes as unimportant.

This one is Rokari and is probably taking pentagram symbolism (from a version of Zzazabur's Sigil) for ornamental and instructional purposes. And is not confering minor rune relationships.

Or, the sorcerors of Lunar Tarsh, Sable Riders and of Dragon Pass in general do not agree with Rokari symbolism.

(I think the wheel on the character sheet isn't representing  anything related to Zzabur's Sigil, relationships could make some amount of sense. I.E. Fire>dark>water>earth>air, Darkness prevents light's touch. Water keeps darkness down deep into hell. Water's domain is ended by earth, and air is what separates Earth from the sky, (and Fire is what is above the sky) Or some other ~spiritual~ or non-materialistic relationship.

This is correct.

[hanataka]

Oh! There are several elemental wheels! Thank you.

What do the character sheet arrows mean? How can we use them?