Multispell will render Protection obsolete.

[Pentallion]

It will only be a very short time before players can put away 12-13 Rune Points at which time they'll be able to Multispell 7 with Extension 5 and go around casting Disruption 8 with the power crystals/power spirits they've accrued.  This will require enemies that can do the same.  Countermagic 2 will be mandatory for survival since it will stop cold all 8 disruptions as they're simultaneous.  Which means protection, being incompatible, will become obsolete.

Of course, campaigns where whoever casts disruption 8 first wins will be too boring to play anyways I suspect so it will be a moot point.

Extension is really broken and multispell is a game changer.

[Atgxtg]

Uh, wait a minute. Are you saying that Disruption is now stackable (Disrupt 8 ) or that they will use Multispell to cast 8 separate Disruption  spells? 

[simonh]

Multispell 7 allows casting 8 disruption spells simultaneously, so the latter.

Shield provides the same magical defence as countermagic and is stackable with protection.

Also multispell 7 with Extension 5 is a ton of rune points. If you don’t get those back until it expires, and I think the consensus here it that’s a good idea, and it’s utility is neutralised by one rune point or a 2pt spirit spell, how many people are going to do it?

Finally each disruption is defended against separately on POW vs POW, so often only half will get through. Scary, but on its own unlikely to be lethal. The nasty thing about Shattering was that all 4 ‘virtual disrupts’ went in together and against the same location.

Edited June 20, 2018 by simonh

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, simonh said:

Finally each disruption is defended against separately on POW vs POW, so often only half will get through. Scary, but on its own unlikely to be lethal.

If multispelled disruption is combined against a single location, it is resolved as one attack (1st para, last sentence of the runespell description).  It would be better to do a gatling and either do 2 4 point disruptions or 4 two point disruptions.

A shaman can do a similar trick with a spell barrage (p361) which doesn't require namby-pamby extenstion but does not appear to allow combination of disruptions.

But the best is Black Fang whose Shattering Spell (p339) acts as a 4 point disruption (combined attack) for only one rune point.

[Atgxtg]

12 minutes ago, simonh said:

Multispell 7 allows casting 8 disruption spells simultaneously, so the latter.

Okay. Thanks.  

[Jeff]

Also keep in mind that Multispell does not help you overcome Shield or Countermagic. 8 Disruption spells cast with Multispell 7 are still stopped by Shield 1. And for that, you blew 7 Rune points and 7 magic points. One good Lightning Spell is far more effective.

 

 

 

[Jeff]

Protection is a fine spell - it lets you knock up your AP's a few points and I've found it is invaluable against the most deadly threat to any adventurer - massed missile weapon fire. A handful of trollkin with slings are far more deadly than the guy blowing 12 Rune Points to cast mega-disruptions.

[Furry Fella]

As always it will be the appropriateness and cleverness of spell use that carries PC's through. Predictable bludgeon approaches are wasteful and readily soaked off before the key events. Remember use of Rune points in mass is readily stymied by controlling the pace at which they can be recovered. To me a bigger worry would be well timed use of bulk extension - e.g. in Sacred Time putting up Shield IV with Extension V. This lasts a year. The way around it is not being able to be healed by others. Who in a hard fight has Healing VI plus at least 4 more MP's  to get over the Shield to fix your maimed limb (as being in shock likely the PC can't). How many PC's put counter magic on their mounts? String a warding in front of the position. Need to close use a familar to drop Light or Dark wall in front of shooters. These are more likely to catch people out and thus be more effective. Why is Harmonise now a Rune Spell - because inventive use of it could and often was so devastating.

[simonh]

Thanks Phil,  I forgot about the special exception for Disruption in Multispell. That never made any sense to me. I does make this option dramatically more lethal, but I still don't see it being a common tactic as it's so easily defeated.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Furry Fella said:

As always it will be the appropriateness and cleverness of spell use that carries PC's through. Predictable bludgeon approaches are wasteful and readily soaked off before the key events. Remember use of Rune points in mass is readily stymied by controlling the pace at which they can be recovered. To me a bigger worry would be well timed use of bulk extension - e.g. in Sacred Time putting up Shield IV with Extension V. This lasts a year. The way around it is not being able to be healed by others. Who in a hard fight has Healing VI plus at least 4 more MP's  to get over the Shield to fix your maimed limb (as being in shock likely the PC can't). How many PC's put counter magic on their mounts? String a warding in front of the position. Need to close use a familar to drop Light or Dark wall in front of shooters. These are more likely to catch people out and thus be more effective. Why is Harmonise now a Rune Spell - because inventive use of it could and often was so devastating.

Yep. Lightwall and Darkwall have always had far more possibility for abuse!

That being said, most of this worrying seems to have been done in the abstract - players themselves in a campaign usually have too much sense (or are too worried about the consequences) to lock up most of their Rune points in a year long Extension.

[simonh]

18 minutes ago, Furry Fella said:

As always it will be the appropriateness and cleverness of spell use that carries PC's through.

Spot on, this tactic is one of those fairly extreme options that is expensive but would be a really nasty shock to someone unprepared. Of course once a magician has a reputation for using it, opponents will take appropriate simple precautions - and that's fine. Now you've provoked them into spending resources to defend against that attack while you switch tactic to something new.

Edited June 20, 2018 by simonh

[simonh]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That being said, most of this worrying seems to have been done in the abstract - players themselves in a campaign usually have too much sense (or are too worried about the consequences) to lock up most of their Rune points in a year long Extension.

Getting rid of Mindlink helps a lot. While one character devoting 9 Rune Points on Shield IV + Extension V basically will wipe out a huge chunk of their rune points for a year, I can easily imagine a tribe ganging together and doing that for their Champion, with everyone chipping in a Rune Point.

[Atgxtg]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

players themselves in a campaign usually have too much sense (or are too worried about the consequences) to lock up most of their Rune points in a year long Extension.

Especially when they can just get a massed Disrupt out of the rest of the group that accomplished the same thing and wouldn't lock down all that magic.. I'd rather try that multispell/extension trick with Multiarrow. Firing 9 arrows at a target (8 multimissiles) would be a great opening shot, and with much better damage and range than a disruption spell. I wouldn't extend it for a year though, maybe for a day.

 

Ooh, is Speedart stackable? 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Furry Fella]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yep. Lightwall and Darkwall have always had far more possibility for abuse!

That being said, most of this worrying seems to have been done in the abstract - players themselves in a campaign usually have too much sense (or are too worried about the consequences) to lock up most of their Rune points in a year long Extension.

Small problem just spent quiet a bit of time going over the Rune Magic chapter.

The key bits appear to be on page 314 "If the roll succeeds, then the spell takes effect, the Rune
points are spent," the further down that column "Once spent, Rune points must be replenished before they can be used again." The the Following on page 315 "Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites. Rune points can be replenished up to the total the adventurer has with their deity by participating in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points."

No where can I find any reference to the spells cast having to have become expired before the Rune points can be recovered.

[simonh]

7 minutes ago, Furry Fella said:

No where can I find any reference to the spells cast having to have become expired before the Rune points can be recovered.

You're quite right this isn't RAW, but it seems like a consensus here is forming that this is how it should be. It makes a lot of potential abuses significantly more costly, without nerfing Extension.

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, Furry Fella said:

Small problem just spent quiet a bit of time going over the Rune Magic chapter.

The key bits appear to be on page 314 "If the roll succeeds, then the spell takes effect, the Rune
points are spent," the further down that column "Once spent, Rune points must be replenished before they can be used again." The the Following on page 315 "Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites. Rune points can be replenished up to the total the adventurer has with their deity by participating in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points."

No where can I find any reference to the spells cast having to have become expired before the Rune points can be recovered.

That's our suggested solution if gamemasters get concerned about abuse of Extension. I think this is largely an abstract or academic concern, so I did not include it in the Core Rules - but if this proves to be something that players actually abuse, that's the solution.

[Furry Fella]

Thanks, that makes sense though I suspect there are other ways. Experience tells me players forget things and generally overdo stuff on the "nothing succeeds like excess".

One of the greatest pieces of fun I've ever had as a GM was running a game with Magic inspired by Russian folk lore - "magic was the expressed desires of magically capable people" but was only closed if the desire expressed had a close point in it. Making the PC's write down their expressed hopes and holding them to implement when it suited by sense of humour. PC's got very precise and careful very quickly.

I suspect controlling the pace of action and the rate of opportunity to replenish Rune points should do as well but each to their own.

[Pentallion]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Especially when they can just get a massed Disrupt out of the rest of the group that accomplished the same thing and wouldn't lock down all that magic.. I'd rather try that multispell/extension trick with Multiarrow. Firing 9 arrows at a target (8 multimissiles) would be a great opening shot, and with much better damage and range than a disruption spell. I wouldn't extend it for a year though, maybe for a day.

 

Ooh, is Speedart stackable? 

Well that's the thing, a year long multispell 7 allows you to do both if you have enough power crystals/power spirits.  And it's not like every published adventure doesn't hand out power crystals like candy.  Oh wait, they do.  So about the time the player has built up 12+ rune points, his magic point pool shouldn't be a problem.  So he can probably buff himself first then cast a disrupt which ignores armor so is better than either slings or multimissiles.

People speak as if it's a one time thing.  They can keep right on multispelling all sorts of spells for the next year.

Meanwhile, countermagic is limited to Issaries and Waha.  So only merchants and Praxians are likely to have defenses.  And they would either have to have a higher Dex SR or have previously cast it because those 8 disruptions go off as if they were a single 1 pt spell.  So while there are answers, those answers aren't likely to be in effect when the disruptions come whizzing in.

I'll have to do more reading on this to be sure it isn't like Shattering, where it all hits one location.  I'm thinking it's 8 random hits, but something I read above makes me think I better double check that.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Pentallion

[simonh]

10 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

I'll have to do more reading on this to be sure it isn't like Shattering, where it all hits one location.  I'm thinking it's 8 random hits, but something I read above makes me think I better double check that.

The description of Multispell makes a special exception for Disruption, so they all combine into one attack against a single location.

[PhilHibbs]

13 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Meanwhile, countermagic is limited to Issaries and Waha.  So only merchants and Praxians are likely to have defenses.  And they would either have to have a higher Dex SR or have previously cast it because those 8 disruptions go off as if they were a single 1 pt spell.

They go off at the normal SR for an 8 point spirit spell.

Edited June 20, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[jongjom]

9 hours ago, Pentallion said:

It will only be a very short time before players can put away 12-13 Rune Points at which time they'll be able to Multispell 7 with Extension 5 and go around casting Disruption 8 with the power crystals/power spirits they've accrued.  This will require enemies that can do the same.  Countermagic 2 will be mandatory for survival since it will stop cold all 8 disruptions as they're simultaneous.  Which means protection, being incompatible, will become obsolete.

Of course, campaigns where whoever casts disruption 8 first wins will be too boring to play anyways I suspect so it will be a moot point.

Extension is really broken and multispell is a game changer.

Wouldn't that also mean the (very-obvious) caster would become the attractor of virtually all offensive spells and missiles (the enemy would seek to kill their biggest threat)? 

[jongjom]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

They go off at the normal SR for an 8 point spirit spell.

Deleted (error)

Edited June 20, 2018 by jongjom

[Pentallion]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

They go off at the normal SR for an 8 point spirit spell.

RQG pg 335: Multispell takes effect at the highest strike rank
of any spell included in the combined attack. For example, if
Joshfar tried to Demoralize one enemy and cast Disruption on
another, both at the minimum cost to cast, it would take effect at
his Demoralize SR of 2, not his Disruption SR of 1.

[Pentallion]

4 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Wouldn't that also mean the (very-obvious) caster would become the attractor of virtually all offensive spells and missiles (the enemy would seek to kill their biggest threat)? 

Yeah, but isn't that pretty standard operating procedure anyways?

[PhilHibbs]

I sit corrected.