Shaman limit to bound spirits clarification

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, simonh said:

The God Learners were definitely Malkioni. They were the antecedents of the Saintly Bookbearers, who witnessed the divine creation of the One Book (original Abiding Book) on Jrustela, which catalysed the founding of the Malkioni True Church. The God Learners kicked off about 100 years later, distorting the faith into the heresy of Malkioneranism.

The churchly language will I think have to be amended as the God Learners were more like a philosophical school rather than an actual church.   

[David Scott]

On 7/8/2018 at 8:23 PM, styopa said:

Oof.  27 spirits?  I cannot conceive either letting a player have that many pets, nor having an NPC launch the same as an all-out assault on a PC party.

This balances out shaman and rune levels. I see no problem with this other than the bookkeeping. Having played a kyger litor shaman priestess in RQ3, you certainly need this for snake pipe hollow. Also before you reach this kind of power, you will have started funnelling stuff into your heroquest self, so Id imagine you'd be more powerful. For me - this is RuneQuest.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And if they happily use sorcery to manipulate the powers of the gods, then I'm sure they happily manipulate the powers of spirits as well, even if they don't see any need for shamanic practices.

Tapping spirits for magic points (in RQ terms ) was almost certainly the way GLs powered stuff. Shamanism is the practice of dealing with animist spirits. There's clearly a way of dealing with spirits in a sorcerous fashion. Animism says the everything has a spirit (defined in RQ as your POW). sorcery is an easier way to deal with spirits as it avoids the whole CHA limitation..

[styopa]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

A statement like this in the magic book would clearly curb any such approaches outside of rules-breaking communities like the Imperial Lunar College of Magic or the Sartar Magical Union. Any characters going down paths like that outside of either organisation will have found their One Unique Thing, or be retro-actively included.

Agree 1000%.  I'm genuinely curious (with the 'discovery' that some Theists can be sorcerers) if that's going to be the approach in RQG.

[Pentallion]

Delecti was a God Learner before he joined the EWF.  I've always been of the suspicion he was a double agent who went rogue.  Don't remember where I read that, but I remember it from several years ago in an officialish publication.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Pentallion

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I've always been of the suspicion he was a double agent who went rogue.  Don't remember where I read that, but I remember it from several years ago in an officialish publication.

The Mongoose book Blood of Orlanth.  So, decidedly non-canonical, but always a possibility in any individual campaign.

[Joerg]

Delecti possibly was involved with the people who created the Rascullu in the Six-Legged Empire. He clearly was a powerful magician of some sort, without clear allegiance to any Theyalan or draconic cult (except perhaps Pavis's). Just the type of strange magician you would call a sorcerer regardless of his actual magic, but possibly guilty as charged, though from an unclear school. Quite likely Malkioni by descent, but possibly Fonritian (Vadeli), exotic Ralian refugee, or other such weird forms.

It isn't quite clear to me when he arrived in Dragon Pass, could have been after the destruction of Robcradle, possibly during a visit with the Pure Horse folk while that assault happened.

I think that minotaurs, centaurs and manticores may have derived from encounters with Praxian groups. The Minotaur is an imitation of the Founder spirits of the tribes, the centaur is the ultimate unification of the Pure Horse steed and rider (and concept-wise not that different from the Rascullu), and the Manticore might be an application of his remodeling to Basmoli Berserk "volunteers". I don't think that he could have created the satyrs from broos or unicorns.

All of these Remaker experiments were performed on live subjects, not corpses,  although they may have involved a death-and-rebirth magic.

 

Let's have a look at his necromantic talents.

He seems to have tricked the mandatory Death to all Humans of the Inhuman Occupation by practicing corpse-hopping. It isn't quite clear whether he really inhabits that corpse or whether that corpse just serves as the mobile platform of an artifact that holds his soul, possibly implanted.

He is able to animate composite corpses as well as regular corpses without any other temporal limitation than rot. (That regular corpse bit is similar to ZZ's Create Zombie.)

He is able to mass animate corpses of recently died people, several thousands a day after a battle or a sacrifice. Outside of the Upland Marsh, they need to remain in a magical chain to remain animated. WF 15 suggests that he gained this power from a heroquest ability imitating a feat of Zorak Zoran, and that such zombies are different from the ones in the previous paragraph.

 

None of these are mentioned during his activities in the EWF.

Delecti was not a draconic thinker - he survived the 1042 utuma unscathed.

He may have been able to tap into the chain of veneration instituted by the Third Council, maybe he even was its architect.

 

If the transformative magic from say rider and horse into centaur involved death of the subjects and then rebirth, he would have had a magic that could tap that energy release upon death. And possibly capture the souls of the beings to be united, too, which might be described as a shamanic technique (to get back to the topic at hand), possibly acquired in Fonrit, Jolar or Prax. (If I am correct about the human subjects of the Remaker transformations, all of these were from cultures practicing shamanism.)

He may have tapped into the massive release of the 1042 utuma, which might have burnt out his (not that) mortal body from sheer overload, and may have forced him into body-hopping already then.

The massive transformation of the lakes into the Upland Marsh might have been fueled by the immense amount of deaths of the Golden Horde and their victims. It might even have been an involuntary release of those energies. The Blackthorn transformation of the captured dryad Horalin isn't dated, but appears to have occurred after Delecti subjected and corrupted Rihalya, who sounds like a limoniad rather than a dryad.

If Delecti used the myth of Korang the Slayer to overcome Rihalya, this sounds like his abandoning his mortal form and transforming the Lakes into the Upland Marsh was the same event.

 

I don't think that Delecti was either a card bearing member of the God Learners or the EWF. He may have been a useful companion for God Learner heroquesting, however, before his relationship with them fouled and/or he received a better offer by Isgangdrang and the ring of Orlanthland.

It is possible to make him a Forrest Gump of the Imperial Age, starting his career as heroquester from Fonrit into Jolar, helping form the Six-legged Empire and constructing the Rascullu, then being shipped over to Robcradle only to miss its destruction at the hands of Paragua and friends, remaining as a guest of the Pure Horse allies of Feroda before following Pavis into the EWF, where he established Remakerela. He may have been privy to the the methods of the Chain of Veneration and may have helped Isgangdrang to set that up for the Third Council. He was no valid target for the assisted mass utuma of 1042, and so remained active until the arrival of the True Golden Horde. I am not exactly certain why he chose to make his stand at Orin Jisteel rather than in Remakerela, but that may have been because of him targeting Rihalya.

The first confirmed mention of Zombies comes after the Dragonkill - he had an army of zombies when that Zorak Zorani paid his terminal visit, reminding Delecti of the Battle of the Walking Corpses, and allowing him to heroquest for the ability to turn the slain bodies of enemies (or sacrifices) into zombie hordes. He possibly created the Dancers of Darkness.

 

[metcalph]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It isn't quite clear to me when he arrived in Dragon Pass, could have been after the destruction of Robcradle, possibly during a visit with the Pure Horse folk while that assault happened.

The sole date we have is that he became a magus about 800 years ago or circa 820 (Guide p190).  Since that dates fairly well-known, it seems to me that it took place in Dragon Pass.

 

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Blackthorn transformation of the captured dryad Horalin isn't dated, but appears to have occurred after Delecti subjected and corrupted Rihalya, who sounds like a limoniad rather than a dryad.

Probably after the Battle of Cloaks and Fireclouds (circa 1200 Glorantha Sourcebook p11)  in which the elves were defeated by the trolls.  The elves then fled allowing Delecti a free hand in preying on dryads and the like.  Interestingly enough Delecti is helping the Dragonewts in their war against the Trolls.

 

 

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The sole date we have is that he became a magus about 800 years ago or circa 820 (Guide p190).  Since that dates fairly well-known, it seems to me that it took place in Dragon Pass.

Checking the dates for the Six-legged Empire (861 - looks like I underestimated the time they needed for the weeding of the elf forests in Umathela before taking over Fonrit and progressing into Jolar), that would mean that Delecti would have missed the making of the Rascullu, unless he took a sabbatical during the Kotor wars starting in 842 to avoid being accused of a conflict of interests. Robcradle fell in 800, which makes an arrival in its aftermath a valid option.

Magus level means that he arrived as an adept (or independent) sorcerer, and built up a power base. Sounds about right.

 

The Six-legged Empire lasted only 40 years, but the magical exploration and the creation of the Rascullu likely started earlier.

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Probably after the Battle of Cloaks and Fireclouds (circa 1200 Glorantha Sourcebook p11)  in which the elves were defeated by the trolls.  The elves then fled allowing Delecti a free hand in preying on dryads and the like.  Interestingly enough Delecti is helping the Dragonewts in their war against the Trolls.

Delecti has always been portrayed as a mercenary force. He had antagonized the Zorak Zoran cult, so it made sense to limit troll power after they did him the service to reduce aldryami power. Troll victories also are bad for Delecti's business - trolls feed on the raw material that he craves.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Checking the dates for the Six-legged Empire (861 - looks like I underestimated the time they needed for the weeding of the elf forests in Umathela before taking over Fonrit and progressing into Jolar), that would mean that Delecti would have missed the making of the Rascullu, unless he took a sabbatical during the Kotor wars starting in 842 to avoid being accused of a conflict of interests. Robcradle fell in 800, which makes an arrival in its aftermath a valid option.

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Magus level means that he arrived as an adept (or independent) sorcerer, and built up a power base. Sounds about right.

It's yet to be shown that Delecti arrived from elsewhere.  There''s no evidence that he didn't arrive from elsewhere (which is why I'm not disputing large parts of your theory) but we should be aware of the possibility that Delecti was working with native sorcery traditions.  Dragon Pass was sophisticated enough and Pavis learned his lore from there rather than the God Learners.

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Six-legged Empire lasted only 40 years, but the magical exploration and the creation of the Rascullu likely started earlier.

Which presumes that the Rascullu were stitched together.  But the Centaurs also appeared in Seshnela without Delecti and the Stitched Zoo.  So an alternate hypothesis for the Rascullu's appearance might be - the Six-Legged Empire investigated the green age of Pamaltela.  In doing so, they inadvertently restored extinct species.

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Delecti has always been portrayed as a mercenary force. He had antagonized the Zorak Zoran cult, so it made sense to limit troll power after they did him the service to reduce aldryami power.

Check the source.  Delecti was already allied with the Elves, the Dragonewts and the Beast Valley when they were fighting the trolls.  The collapse of elvish power occurred during the Troll War after Delecti had joined.

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's yet to be shown that Delecti arrived from elsewhere.  There''s no evidence that he didn't arrive from elsewhere (which is why I'm not disputing large parts of your theory) but we should be aware of the possibility that Delecti was working with native sorcery traditions.  Dragon Pass was sophisticated enough and Pavis learned his lore from there rather than the God Learners.

There aren't many native sorcery traditions from Dragon Pass known to us. Lhankor Mhy's Torvald alchemy is about the only human one from Dragon Pass proper, unless Isidilian had human followers gifted with dwarf maintenance sorcery already before the Dragonkill.

There are centers providing sorcery just outside of Dragon Pass - Arkat's Hold has the House of Black Arkat, there is Nochet with its Aeolian annex (who aren't shunned any more than the cult of Orlanth) and "God Learner" riots at its (Lhankor Mhy) university, and possibly a few Waertagi teachers at the Debaldan academy, there are the Brithini, Ingareens and/or Esvulari in southern Heortland and God Forgot, and there is the City of 10,000 Magicians in Aggar which may have a connection to the presence of Akgarbash of Laurmal a little further north.

I don't know where Pavis learned his sorcery, but possibly from the dwarves supporting the project that produced him

Delecti's use of the inverse Sky River Titan myth to imprison Rihalya sounds very much like something out of the Umathelan or Slontan universities for RuneQuest-Sight heroquesting, and so does his visit at the Zorak Zoran myth.

 

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Which presumes that the Rascullu were stitched together.  But the Centaurs also appeared in Seshnela without Delecti and the Stitched Zoo.  So an alternate hypothesis for the Rascullu's appearance might be - the Six-Legged Empire investigated the green age of Pamaltela.  In doing so, they inadvertently restored extinct species.

The creation myths for the inner Pamaltelan humanoids (Hoolar, Jelmre, Pelmre, Agitori) sound very Green Age to me. There is no indication when and how the Fiwan started to share the habitat of the Doraddi of the Veldt, and I regard their myth to be a coastal one, possibly from Laskal. We have the Bomonoi of the farthest south of the continent, and weird giants in the Fense mountains in modern days, without a myth about their origins. There is no mention of the Rascullu for earlier ages, and them being grouped with the Hsunchen makes their treatment different from that of the Green Age races of the Grotarons or Hoolar.

But then, who could have witnessed them? The Agimori were still way down south, taking their first drinks in a flame-parched land, and the Fiwan didn't pay much notice. The Greenwood of Jolar expanded only later.