Shaman limit to bound spirits clarification

[Pheres]

In RQG book p 359 it's write:

Quote

Increased Limit to Bound Spirits

The total number of spirits a shaman may keep bound and have pacts with is equal to the total of the shaman and the fetch’s CHA. This is an improvement over the normal limits, described in Limit to Binding on page 250.

and p 250:

Quote

Limit to Binding

The total number of entities an adventurer may keep bound is equal to the adventurer’s CHA divided by 3.

I would like to be sure to well understand this rule. As i read a Shaman with CHA of 15 and a fetch CHA of 12 can bind 27 entities (the total of Shaman CHA and fetch CHa must not be divided by 3). When an adventurer, who is not a Shaman, with a CHA of 27 (if it's possible to have such a CHA) can bind only 9 entities.

 

[Richard S.]

9 minutes ago, Pheres said:

In RQG book p 359 it's write:

and p 250:

I would like to be sure to well understand this rule. As i read a Shaman with CHA of 15 and a fetch CHA of 12 can bind 27 entities (the total of Shaman CHA and fetch CHa must not be divided by 3). When an adventurer, who is not a Shaman, with a CHA of 27 (if it's possible to have such a CHA) can bind only 9 entities.

 

Yes. Shamans can bind far more spirits than normal adventures due to their presence in the spirit world.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Richard S.

[Pheres]

Thanks

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Yes. Shamans can bind far more spirits than normal adventures due to their presence in the spirit world.

Agreed, I read that as a major benefit of being a Shaman.

[Richard S.]

48 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Agreed, I read that as a major benefit of being a Shaman.

Yep. Handy to have hundreds of magic points available at a time.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if I could play a shaman-sorcerer...

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Yep. Handy to have hundreds of magic points available at a time.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if I could play a shaman-sorcerer...

You would probably have to be illuminated to be able to do so.

 

A sorcerer might try and use a pyramid scheme with bound spirits (in creatures possessing a CHA stat) controlling a MP storage and a number of other bound spirits whose function is to refill these.

A couple of rules clarifications might be required here.

Can bound spirits possessing a CHA stat control other spirits?

Can MP be transferred from one MP storage to another?

 

Now imagine a sorcerer controlling the bound spirit of a shaman, and shudder, even without an ability to use the fetch.

[styopa]

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You would probably have to be illuminated to be able to do so.

Why?  I thought we'd had that conversation already that in RQG there weren't (what I thought were canonical) magic-system exclusivity that I'd understood existed in previous systems - that you can have a theist-sorcerer, for example.

12 hours ago, Pheres said:

I would like to be sure to well understand this rule. As i read a Shaman with CHA of 15 and a fetch CHA of 12 can bind 27 entities (the total of Shaman CHA and fetch CHa must not be divided by 3). When an adventurer, who is not a Shaman, with a CHA of 27 (if it's possible to have such a CHA) can bind only 9 entities.

Oof.  27 spirits?  I cannot conceive either letting a player have that many pets, nor having an NPC launch the same as an all-out assault on a PC party.

Ash Ketchum as Grand Shaman.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

You would probably have to be illuminated to be able to do so.

I was going to say "Or a Mistress Race Troll", but their sorcerers are Illuminated, so yes.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

A sorcerer might try and use a pyramid scheme with bound spirits (in creatures possessing a CHA stat) controlling a MP storage and a number of other bound spirits whose function is to refill these.

A couple of rules clarifications might be required here.

Can bound spirits possessing a CHA stat control other spirits?

We used to play that No, Bound Spirits cannot control other spirits.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Can MP be transferred from one MP storage to another?

We played that Bound Spirits could be used to fill up Magic Point Stores (MP Matrices or POW Crystals) as filling them is just using MPs.

We played that bound Spirits could not be used to fill up expended MPs from Bound Spirits, though, it was strictly one way. Similarly, Bounds Spirit's MPs could not be used to top up the PC's/Allied Spirit's/Fetch's MPs.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Now imagine a sorcerer controlling the bound spirit of a shaman, and shudder, even without an ability to use the fetch.

Perhaps, that would be useful.

A Shaman controlling another Shaman+Fetch is also very useful, in this case we played that the controlling Shaman could command the controlled Shaman+Fetch to use his Controlled, rather than Bound, spirits.

It was shame that RQ3 did away with Controlled Spirits for shamans, as they were very useful.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by soltakss

[Joerg]

Not all spirits will be able to attack normally. A shaman may have trapped disease or other enemy spirits, carry healing spirits, have spirits only able to provide MP, and elementals or other such entities that can form bodies.

Under RQ3, there was no limit to spirits in bindings, and a shaman could also hold spirits in his fetch as long as the total POW of those spirits didn't exceed the MP of the fetch. Some NPC fetches had POW in the fifties.

You could have Theist-Sorcerer-Shaman Chalana Arroyans, I suppose, although getting there would be a long way. On the Lunar side, shamanism appears to be rather remote from sorcery. With uzuz demigoddesses, all bets are off.

Few shamanic traditions are neutral towards sorcery. The Hsunchen are mostly hostile to Malkioni, and that seems to apply to the beast totem warrior societies of the Malkioni, too, possibly even more so. Kolat and Earth Witch aren't very friendly even with elemental Rune cults of the same flavor, and probably even less towards sorcerers. Pure Horse folk in Prax once were allied with sorcerers, but that alliance was betrayed, and when they had to face the Beast Riders, no sorcerers were there to help them. The Pentan alliance with the Orathorn sorcerers didn't end on a happy note, either.

Doraddi shamanism is unlikely to welcome sorcerers. Fonritians might, and I wouldn't swear that Pujaleg wouldn't be tempted, either.

Sheng Seleris managed to overcome such distinctions, and the Lunar College of Magic and Argrath's Magical Union appear to work on such terms, too. Fonritian slaves might be forced to cross-train slaves from the other type of magic, possibly overriding tradition or school limitations. Eastern society may have such combinations somewhere.

Malkioni caste restrictions probably forbid any experimentation with shamanism. including the Carmanians. The Waertagi might be more open. The Vadeli will have spells to trap or dominate shamans. Older Spolite combinations are possible, though rarely practiced openly within sight of Carmanians or Dara Happans.

The Ramalian overlords might be able to force their way into the Mraloti secrets, but how attractive can it be to lower yourself from proud sorcery to unclean porcine shamanism?

Arkati stygianism doesn't really include shamanism, although Kitori or Argan Argar Chain practitioners might have access to some traditions of uz shamanism, too.

[Yelm's Light]

I'd've thought it'd be the other way 'round...studying and applying the 'laws' of magic is what sorcerors do.  Spirit societies might be unwilling to provide info to the would-be shaman, but that doesn't mean he/she couldn't find other avenues for research.

Whether they'd be suited to it (i.e, high CHA) is another matter...

Edited July 9, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Now imagine a sorcerer controlling the bound spirit of a shaman, and shudder, even without an ability to use the fetch.

Delecti perhaps??? 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Now imagine a sorcerer controlling the bound spirit of a shaman, and shudder, even without an ability to use the fetch.

Delecti perhaps??? 

I always thought that Delecti dealt primarily in dead bodies rather than spirits. But I haven't seen any games mechanics in RuneQuest how he creates his zombies. From his ability to re-animate or transform entire regiments I guess that he doesn't use the Animate Dead sorcery spell.

[simonh]

Malkioni have a few problems with shamanism. For a start they don’t have any ancestors that are contactable - their souls go to Solace (hopefully) - which puts them at a distinct disadvantage with regard to most shamanic traditions. Also dealing with spirits in a shamanic way is contrary to the teachings of Malkionism, so in doing so you’re a heretic and certainly ineligible fir Solace yourself.

Who cares? Well, the laws of magic sorcerers use come from Malkioni scripture; if they are true then surely that means scripture is true. The more sophisticated your knowledge of Malkioni sorcery, the harder it’s going to be to say oh well, whatever. Suppose you could read and learn passages in the bible and these actually enabled you to walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine and bring mana down from heaven. It would be a heck of a lot harder to say the claims of the bible are unproven and treat its strictures (folowing which make magic easier) are not for you.

So the rules don’t actually prevent this, there may even be some weird cultures that have beliefs that bridge between the types of magic in some ways. Lankor Mhy is one of these. But I think it’s wirth thinking about what such a character actually believes and cares about in the world. Illumination of various sorts certainly offers several paths.

[styopa]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not all spirits will be able to attack normally.

But there's nothing stopping them from all being attack spirits, certainly?

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Few shamanic traditions are neutral towards sorcery. (etc snipped)

While I certainly understand your point, I (and this is just my very personal take in RPGs) dislike systems that rely on flubbly-wubbly hand-wavy 'cultural norms' to constrain player behavior.

"Well they just wouldn't do it that way" leaves entirely too much open to opportunistic interpretation.  Further, to forestall it and maintain balance in the game then requires a substantial amount of setting-knowledge on the part of a GM to is not going to be commonly available (if we're actually trying to get people INTO this game and not just satisfying the 30-year-grognards?)...just like the elsewhere discussion about the imbalance of the Peace spell.  It's all well and good to say "well, in the setting it's only available to the high priest of X subcult"...but if that's not explicitly laid out (ie mechanically limited in the rules), how would a new-to-Glorantha GM KNOW that?  The answer is: they wouldn't.  Any opportunistic player could say "ah, my character is now a Priestess of Eiritha so I'm taking that spell (afaik nothing in the rules talks specifically about requirements to be a high priestess, either).

IMO all the setting detail in the world is nice, but unless it translates into actual black and white mechanics, it's decorative RPG Rococo. 

[PhilHibbs]

16 minutes ago, styopa said:

(afaik nothing in the rules talks specifically about requirements to be a high priestess, either).

Yes, it explicitly states that it is only  made available to the high priestess.

[Pheres]

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, it explicitly states that it is only  made available to the high priestess.

Yes, it's explicitly said:

Quote

Three Bean Circus: This spirit cult

provides Peace to High Priestesses.

When i have post my first quey, i could not expect that the topic turn that way. But all that have been writen here is interesting to read.

But i have one other query, about how to become initiate of incompatible cults, some of you said that by becoming illuminated it should be possible. I have search in the Glorantha wiki and found the chapter about illumination. It's interesting, but it seems to be an old stuff, because, except if i have missed some part in the RQG core book, nothing is writen about illumination in RQG, no?

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Pheres said:

It's interesting, but it seems to be an old stuff, because, except if i have missed some part in the RQG core book, nothing is writen about illumination in RQG, no?

Correct. Illumination has not yet been covered. Neither has truestone, adamantium, chaos, mysticism, dragon magic, or any of the other deeper mysteries of Glorantha that have always been left to specialist publications.

[Pheres]

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Correct. Illumination has not yet been covered. Neither has truestone, adamantium, chaos, mysticism, dragon magic, or any of the other deeper mysteries of Glorantha that have always been left to specialist publications.

So, perhaps it should be a good thing to just use the basic RQG stuff and wait. Because some mysteries can changed compared to previous game settings.

I would like to discover what can be written today on the Glorantha universe and, even if i am interseted in previous version of the game i will wait and see!

I think that people who are playing in Glorantha for years should do the same and could be surprised with new things and become lay member of this newer version of the old universe...

Edited July 9, 2018 by Pheres

[PhilHibbs]

12 minutes ago, Pheres said:

... Because some mysteries can changed compared to previous game settings.

I expect that the only things that will change are where the game mechanics have to be different. For instance, how does truestone work with Rune Points? FYI truestone is extraordinarily magical, and if anyone finds and touches a "blank" piece of truestone they are immediately overwhelmed with the urge to, in RQ2 and RQ3 terms, cast all of their available rune/divine magic into it. It then becomes "fixed" for ever, and acts as a matrix for all those spells. It can be refilled by someone casting a used spell back into it. Now for an initiate, this can be a bit of a disaster as all their single-use spells are gone into the item (which can be lost or stolen), and they have to start again if they want to get the 10 points of divine magic to qualify for priesthood. But with Rune Points being reusable for everyone, it's not such a problem. And also with the spells you have access to being much wider than the number of points you have, how do you figure out which spells get cast into the stone? I suspect that there are solutions out there, as the Rune Points idea has been floating around for a long time.

Glorantha hasn't really changed*. Only the rules that "simulate" the world have.

* Although it has varied, sometimes permanently.

Edited July 9, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Pheres]

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Glorantha hasn't really changed*. Only the rules that "simulate" the world have.

* Although it has varied, sometimes permanently.

I like your comment in very small characters... For me it's what means changed, it can vary and variations can turn Glorantha into a new thing.

I also really think that rules are strongly linked to how an universe is played and how it makes the universe living. So changing the rules can change the universe. (For example i have read somewhere in this forum that in one or more previous RQ rules book it was very hard to use runes magic, but now it's seems to be easier, this kind of thing is making an universe more magic than the past one, so it has an impact on the universe)

Edited July 9, 2018 by Pheres

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, simonh said:

Malkioni have a few problems with shamanism.

But not all sorcerers are necessarily Malkioni.  The God Learners for instance (and Delecti was a God Learner).  And if they happily use sorcery to manipulate the powers of the gods, then I'm sure they happily manipulate the powers of spirits as well, even if they don't see any need for shamanic practices.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, styopa said:

While I certainly understand your point, I (and this is just my very personal take in RPGs) dislike systems that rely on flubbly-wubbly hand-wavy 'cultural norms' to constrain player behavior.

Sure. I am not in a position to define "no Hsunchen shamanic path allows shamans to become sorcerers, or vice versa." Except for my own games, where this probably is true.

Likewise, the Rokari church will have made the acquisition of spirit magic through other means than spell matrix enchantments anathema, let alone following a shamanic path. Report to the inquisition for immolation. Do not go to Solace.

4 hours ago, styopa said:

"Well they just wouldn't do it that way" leaves entirely too much open to opportunistic interpretation.  Further, to forestall it and maintain balance in the game then requires a substantial amount of setting-knowledge on the part of a GM to is not going to be commonly available (if we're actually trying to get people INTO this game and not just satisfying the 30-year-grognards?)...just like the elsewhere discussion about the imbalance of the Peace spell.  It's all well and good to say "well, in the setting it's only available to the high priest of X subcult"...but if that's not explicitly laid out (ie mechanically limited in the rules), how would a new-to-Glorantha GM KNOW that?  The answer is: they wouldn't.  Any opportunistic player could say "ah, my character is now a Priestess of Eiritha so I'm taking that spell (afaik nothing in the rules talks specifically about requirements to be a high priestess, either).

IMO all the setting detail in the world is nice, but unless it translates into actual black and white mechanics, it's decorative RPG Rococo. 

Easily done in an official voice. "No shamans can become sorcerers, and vice versa, without breaking the restrictions and losing all support of both communities." Losing all support prevents the new apprentice shaman or sorcerer from learning anything from that source.

A statement like this in the magic book would clearly curb any such approaches outside of rules-breaking communities like the Imperial Lunar College of Magic or the Sartar Magical Union. Any characters going down paths like that outside of either organisation will have found their One Unique Thing, or be retro-actively included.

 

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

But not all sorcerers are necessarily Malkioni.  The God Learners for instance (and Delecti was a God Learner).  And if they happily use sorcery to manipulate the powers of the gods, then I'm sure they happily manipulate the powers of spirits as well, even if they don't see any need for shamanic practices.

The God Learners were Malkioni in origin, and the term originally applied to learning about the truths about the Invisible God which led to the Return to Rightness movement that conquered Seshnela, Fronela, Ralios and Slontos. The Free Men of the Seas who summoned Tanien were Malkioni establishing the superiority of sorcery over divinity.

The adventurism and heroquesting movement that experimented with theist worship called Malkionieranism in Revealed Mythologies and The Middle Sea Empire probably is what most Third Age folk think of as the God Learners, with weird stuff like the Zistorite Machine God or magical experiments like the creation of the Rascullu in the Six Legged Empire (which appears to have the hand-writing of Delecti). They weren't mainstream Malkioni, but they were tolerated by the mainstream ones for the results they brought home.

From the results, I have serious doubts that the Malkioneranist movemen managed to invade shamanism the way they invaded theism.

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

But not all sorcerers are necessarily Malkioni.  The God Learners for instance (and Delecti was a God Learner). 

The God Learners were Malkioni (they were closer to the Rokari School than the Loskalmi are).  As for Delecti being a God Learner - Forang Farosh does make such a claim but Garstal Shavetop doesn't believe him (WF #15 p28)

 

[simonh]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But not all sorcerers are necessarily Malkioni.  The God Learners for instance (and Delecti was a God Learner).  And if they happily use sorcery to manipulate the powers of the gods, then I'm sure they happily manipulate the powers of spirits as well, even if they don't see any need for shamanic practices.

The God Learners were definitely Malkioni. They were the antecedents of the Saintly Bookbearers, who witnessed the divine creation of the One Book (original Abiding Book) on Jrustela, which catalysed the founding of the Malkioni True Church. The God Learners kicked off about 100 years later, distorting the faith into the heresy of Malkioneranism.

Delecti was a member of the EWF - probably quite senior. It's possible he picked up some God Learner magic from somewhere, but that's speculation and there's no real evidence for it I don't think.

Edited July 10, 2018 by simonh