Book of Sires - Errors Thread

[Hzark10]

22 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

The inhabitants of Cheshire are defined as Cymric Pagan....However, this conflicts with Book of the Knights & Ladies page 22, where people from Cheshire should be British Christian.

Remember that Book of Sires starts circa 439 AD.  Cheshire is defined as part of the the area that will be part of the Kingdom of Norgales. This kingdom does not yet exist when the Book starts. If you prefer them to be C/BC from the beginning, I would see no problem in defining it as such. Part of the history here is when Cunneida comes south, Norgales eventually becomes a kingdom and is eventually converted to BC from Paganism.  I think it would depend on what David L. says regarding whether it is in error or not.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Hzark10
should be kingdom, not king

[Morien]

I think it is a typo.

I know we used K&L as our touchstone when it came to the cultures, and only made changes as necessary to reflect the fact that we didn't have the Saxons yet (save in Berroc) in 439, or where later publications had made clear that Silchester was a Roman civitates (hence Silchester is R/RC rather than C/BC). I also know that we fixed a few of the culture/religions in final edit, and I -thought- I had gone through all of them to double-check them. But since a lot of that editing was done outside of emails, I don't have a record of those discussions.

In any case, I don't see a strong reason why Cheshire should be Pagan. Granted, we have (some) pagans in Cameliard (Cornovii) and in Powys (Ordovices), but there is no particular reason why the Deceangli wouldn't have been converted before 439. There are certainly no particular events between 439 and 463 (nor up to 480, AFAIK) which would have prompted a conversion of Cheshire in particular, except perhaps one. There would have been the Hallelujah Victory by Saint Germanus that we could have used, traditionally placed in Flintshire, which would have been Deceangli territory at the time of his visit (447 in SIRES), but a naval invasion by Picts and Scots/Irish or Saxons didn't quite fit the story we were trying to weave together, so that got dropped... Easier to just say that the Deceangli converted with most of the British tribes (south of the wall) during the Roman times and leave it at that.

The inhabitants of Cheshire (the Deceangli) have nothing to do with the pagan Votadini who come from the North in 455, but have lived near City of Legions and Norgales until pushed out by the Irish, and then Norgales was claimed by the Votadini. Cheshire is not natively part of Norgales, which we used to refer to the area between Cheshire and Gomeret, as shown in the map of Cambria, p. 79. Thanks to the various kingdoms conquering one another from time to time, I would not have a problem with Ryons' Kingdom of Norgales including Cheshire as well, and probably most of Gomeret, too, but Cheshire is not a subdivision of the Kingdom of Norgales nor are they of the Votadini.

Also, Tintagel should get the mix specified: C/Mix (BC or P).

Edited July 22, 2019 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

Another "Ethnic/Religious" oddity.

Page 49 seems to suggest that in Brittany there should be more Cymric RC than among the Cymric in Britain.

However, table 1.9 on page 13 suggest that all the Cymric are BC (while only Romans are RC).

Is it a typo?

Or maybe it should be changed with something like: "C/BC or RC"  ???

[Morien]

Table 1.9 conforms with the Book of Knights & Ladies, p. 22...

I am not sure about BoSi p.49... I see that sentence appearing in a draft in March 2016... Hzark10, any recollection?

It is possible that it was a nice idea to try and differentiate the Brittany Britons a bit from their British counterparts, but didn't get followthrough in Table 1.9, due to us basically trying to make sure that Table 1.9 fitted BoK&L as much as possible and missing on the comment in p. 49 (oops). That being said, I would be perfectly happy to switch Vannetais to "C/Mix (BC or RC)". It would make sense to me, given the continental context, and what was said in p. 49.

The other option would be taking the sentence out in p.49, but I would, in this case, rather veer off from BoK&L and make it more varied and different from standard C/BC.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Morien

[Hzark10]

8 hours ago, Morien said:

It is possible that it was a nice idea to try and differentiate the Brittany Britons a bit from their British counterparts, but didn't get followthrough in Table 1.9, due to us basically trying to make sure that Table 1.9 fitted BoK&L as much as possible and missing on the comment in p. 49 (oops). That being said, I would be perfectly happy to switch Vannetais to "C/Mix (BC or RC)". It would make sense to me, given the continental context, and what was said in p. 49.

Yeah, oops. I think we missed this one.  My notes indicate it also probably should be either a mixture. The continent should have more Roman Christians than British Christians, especially if one argues these tables start in 439, before the Second Migration.  So, yes, this should be C/Mix (BC or RC).

 

BobS.

[Morien]

7 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Yeah, oops. I think we missed this one.  My notes indicate it also probably should be either a mixture. The continent should have more Roman Christians than British Christians, especially if one argues these tables start in 439, before the Second Migration.  So, yes, this should be C/Mix (BC or RC).

If we really wanted to, we could make Cornouailles and Domnonie (pre-migration) to be "C/Mix (BC or RC)" as well. With the Dumnonii migration in late 450s, they would bring their C/BC culture and religious affiliation with them, as they establish the Kingdom of Domnonie.

Not that either of those kingdoms are detailed in BoK&L.

[Hzark10]

I agree.  

[SaxBasilisk]

I'm not sure if this is actually an error.

Page 80, Cambria, year 455: Half the Cornovii are moved to Cornwall, but the characters of Cornovii heritage aren't given an option to have their family move to Cornwall and start rolling on those event tables, as members of other cultural groups may.

Edited July 27, 2019 by SaxBasilisk

[Morien]

23 minutes ago, SaxBasilisk said:

Page 80, Cambria, year 455: Half the Cornovii are moved to Cornwall, but the characters of Cornovii heritage aren't given an option to have their family move to Cornwall and start rolling on those event tables, as members of other cultural groups may.

Thanks for asking. I'll try to explain it.

It is not an error, but a design choice. The PK Cornovii stay in Cambria, until the Night of the Long Knives. Note that we make all the Cambrians Dissidents in 455, too. This ensures that they will end up in Brittany in 463, and hence return with Aurelius Ambrosius and get lands in Logres, instead.

If we had allowed them to move to Cornwall, it would have caused two things:

1. We would have had yet another separate Cornwall tribe of Loyalists to track until the Night of the Long Knives, and

2. More importantly, we would have had to follow the Cornovii (Kingdom of Cornwall) side of things until 485, too. We didn't. The Cornwall in BoSi is the DUCHY of Cornwall, when we get caught up in 480 or 485.

The whole idea in BoSi was that you'd end up in Logres by the end of it, and run with GPC. Kingdom of Cornwall is not in Logres, hence we didn't allow that path.

(Sure, we allowed Cumbria up to 485, because... reasons. )

Edited July 27, 2019 by Morien

[KungFuFenris]

Wyrms are always a good reason!

[Luca Cherstich]

p.6

"435: Grandfather marries and starts gaining yealy events"

In reality he just marries on that year...yearly events starts only in 439!

[Luca Cherstich]

Other two things on page 6

- the character should be born on 464 (as per normal story in Core rules) not in 463 (they must be 21 on AD 485).

- the father should be born on 439, not 438 (he must be 21 on AD 460).

EDIT:

I just noticed that the book says that one turns 21 at the end of the previous year, so everything should be OK....or at least I hope to have got it!

Edited August 3, 2019 by Luca Cherstich

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I just noticed that the book says that one turns 21 at the end of the previous year, so everything should be OK....or at least I hope to have got it!

Yep. Aging and Childbirth are both in Winter Phase, at the end of the year*, and that is the convention we used. We had a long discussion about that too.

* Sure you can argue that the end of the Winter Phase is actually already towards March, but even in that case, the traditional start of the year was March 25th for most of the Middle Ages. Conversely, you could argue that Julius Caesar's Jan 1st was not overturned until the Council of Tours 567, so after GPC's Battle of Camlann. But I find it personally more pleasing to have the Winter at the end of the year, and then start a new year and new adventures once the Winter Phase closes the chapter on the previous year.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

3 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

p.6

"435: Grandfather marries and starts gaining yealy events"

In reality he just marries on that year...yearly events starts only in 439!

I just realized that this implies the d20 glory mentioned on page 7 ("Glory gained prior to 439").
However, the "Yearly events" reference is still wrong, since you do not roll for them.

[Morien]

2 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I just realized that this implies the d20 glory mentioned on page 7 ("Glory gained prior to 439").

Correct.

2 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

However, the "Yearly events" reference is still wrong, since you do not roll for them. 

Well... the 1d20 Glory IS a yearly event*, it is just a generic yearly event because we didn't give any specific ones until 439. If you feel like making your own for 435 - 438, feel free!

* And it says "starts gaining yearly events", not "starts rolling yearly events".

Edited August 3, 2019 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

OK, not strictly an error...but I rolled a PC's past in Acquitaine and he happened to be Roman (there are so many Roman cities there in that table).

However, once you start rolling the year events, you notice the amount of battles that Acquitanians do against the Romans.

At the end of the day I guess those tables cannot predict every bend in the story and some GM/player interpretation is required (in my case I ruled out that local Roman/Romanized are somehow obedient to the Acquitanian Kings, as their equivalent in Britannia do with Cymric kings, even in wars against other Romans).

Furthermore this book is sometimes difficult to combine with BoK&L, especially in terms of how it fits with father origin and starting wealth in BoK&L. But again, I guess that trying to make the two things working perfectly together would have been complicated and (again), some degree of GM/Player interpretation and creativity is required.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Luca Cherstich

[Morien]

28 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I rolled a PC's past in Acquitaine and he happened to be Roman

Not a problem. You need to make the distinction between an Aquitanian subject of Roman culture and a WRE subject of Roman culture, as you have already done. The PC in question is an Aquitanian subject and would follow all the events as an Aquitanian. His culture is irrelevant to this. He can even choose to be a traditionalist or a reformist, same as any other Aquitanian.

31 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

how it fits with father origin and starting wealth in BoK&L.

The presumption is that by default (in KAP 5.2 and GPC), the character's family are landed knights* , but it doesn't need to be the case. It works just as well if they are just household knights, although then they would not qualify for the Heritage Passion.

Come to think of it, you don't even have to assume that they are knights, if you don't want to. Running a tribal warrior through the Pictish or Cambrian line would work just as well. There is no need for them to be KNIGHTS, and even esquires could be fighting in battles. Many of the officers would be esquires or even knights, too. Now I don't recall if it is the same for tribal people, but with esquires, you'd just take off the 1000 Glory for Knighting and you are good to continue.

So I guess what I am asking here is: what seems to be the problem?

* At least from father onwards, but I am strongly urging to make that at least from grandfather onwards, since if it is just the father who gets it from marriage to an heiress as in KAP 5.2, this means the WHOLE REST OF THE PATERNAL FAMILY TREE is ineligible to ever to inherit, save for the PK's siblings from that same marriage. This, to me, is a Bad Thing as it makes it quite easy for the family to die off as far as that family+manor connection is concerned.

[Username]

Errors:

P. 58 the event table has serpent misspelled on the roll of 20.

P. 272 The year 402 needs to be bolded and have a line break before it. 

 

I apologize if these have been corrected already. I just got my hard back copy and was looking through it. It really makes me want to run an even earlier campaign.

[Uqbarian]

It's minor, but on page 275:

'Prince Idres of Totnes, whose father was the previous King of Cornwall, feels slighted by Aurelius and Riothamus, even though Riothamus marries Idres’ sister and makes Idres his heir.'

I think the bold text should be 'marries his sister to Idres', to match page 105 and the family tree on page 66. (In 457 Riothamus marries Triphine, the sister of Meliau, King of Vannetais; this connection is also mentioned on pages 98 and 106.)

 

[Uqbarian]

On page 11, in table 1.5, shouldn't Hantonne and Chichester have a 'Future Saxon Kingdom' note? (That is, 'Future Saxon Kingdom; will be conquered during the Anarchy Period (Appendix B)', same as Caerwent and Norwich on page 9.)

[Morien]

On 9/13/2019 at 10:33 AM, Uqbarian said:

It's minor, but on page 275:

'Prince Idres of Totnes, whose father was the previous King of Cornwall, feels slighted by Aurelius and Riothamus, even though Riothamus marries Idres’ sister and makes Idres his heir.'

I think the bold text should be 'marries his sister to Idres', to match page 105

Correct.

8 hours ago, Uqbarian said:

On page 11, in table 1.5, shouldn't Hantonne and Chichester have a 'Future Saxon Kingdom' note? (That is, 'Future Saxon Kingdom; will be conquered during the Anarchy Period (Appendix B)', same as Caerwent and Norwich on page 9.)

Yes. This is probably because originally, we were going to stop at 484, full stop. But then first Uther, and then Anarchy were added in Appendices, and somehow, Wessex got forgotten about.

That being said, Chichester should be taken by Aelle, IMHO, since it is named after his son, Cissa. GPC maps have their usual detail, having Cerdic take Portchester (496 map) and then having PORT arrive and take Chichester (501 text + 503-504 maps), instead of Portchester/Portsmouth. Grr. Also, despite the text stating that Cerdic gives Portchester to Port, the 503-504 map does not reflect this. Oh well. Perhaps it serves to make Wessex a bit bigger and hence more of a threat to Salisbury, but I would be tempted to change that. It might even be an interesting plot point if Ulfius gives/abandons Chichester to Sussex in order to get an alliance/peace with them, perhaps in 502 (after Port's landing shows that the southern shore cannot be held) or 503 (Essex and Kent take London and push Ulfius west). 

 

[Uqbarian]

8 hours ago, Morien said:

Correct.

Yes. This is probably because originally, we were going to stop at 484, full stop. But then first Uther, and then Anarchy were added in Appendices, and somehow, Wessex got forgotten about.

That being said, Chichester should be taken by Aelle, IMHO, since it is named after his son, Cissa. GPC maps have their usual detail, having Cerdic take Portchester (496 map) and then having PORT arrive and take Chichester (501 text + 503-504 maps), instead of Portchester/Portsmouth. Grr. Also, despite the text stating that Cerdic gives Portchester to Port, the 503-504 map does not reflect this. Oh well. Perhaps it serves to make Wessex a bit bigger and hence more of a threat to Salisbury, but I would be tempted to change that. It might even be an interesting plot point if Ulfius gives/abandons Chichester to Sussex in order to get an alliance/peace with them, perhaps in 502 (after Port's landing shows that the southern shore cannot be held) or 503 (Essex and Kent take London and push Ulfius west). 

 

I see! Thanks for that.

[Morien]

Speaking of things we forgot to mention... (came up in a Discord discussion)

Ygraine's age is already too low in GPC to have two daughters ready for marriage by 491, but since we included Gorlois' love story with her from 465 onwards, we naturally had to age her a bit (her birth year in GPC is 464...). So, based on our notes, she should have been born 450, making her 15 when she meets Gorlois, and 20 when she weds him.  (Or born Winter 449, if you prefer that notation.) This means she is 41 when she conceives with Arthur, which also explains nicely why she didn't become pregnant again afterwards.

Anyway, we forgot to add that note anywhere. So once the revision rolls around, we should add a bit of a note at the end of Gorlois' backstory in Appendices, I think.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Morien

[Tizun Thane]

15 hours ago, Morien said:

which also explains nicely why she didn't become pregnant again afterwards

The coldness of her marriage can also explain a lot of things .

Anyway, the age of mythical characters doesn't really matter. Guenever is what 80? when she is caught in adultery, and she is more beautiful than ever.

[Morien]

55 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

The coldness of her marriage can also explain a lot of things .

Some, but given Uther's Lustful...

Of course, one of the interesting what-ifs is if Ygraine was poisoning Uther after Arthur's kidnapping and this, rather than the duel with Argan, was the reason why he was so sick in 494 and 495. Not sick enough to die, but sick enough to not bother her.

Then again, I am one of those who definitely sees Ygraine's marriage to Uther more in terms of 'what I need to do to save my daughters and myself' rather than any love for Uther. The kidnapping of Arthur and Uther letting the accomplices (the PKs) free sours her on Uther even more. And sure, it could be that the cold shoulder is enough to start cooling Uther's ardor, too. After all, he is probably more accustomed to women at least pretending to enjoy his attentions. But this is pure speculation, of course.

55 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

Anyway, the age of mythical characters doesn't really matter. Guenever is what 80? when she is caught in adultery, and she is more beautiful than ever.

Born 497, so 68 in 565.

Year 558 APP 29 (down slightly from APP 30 she has in 514, 531 and 540). Must have been using those Glory Bonus Points!