Egregious munchkinnery!

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Ummmm.... I don't see that as being a thing.

It’s semi-supported by the rules (edit: fully supported, just didn’t find it at first), but this could as easily be a case of poor rules editing. Above all, it is bonkers, which is a good argument against it.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Austin]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Ummmm.... I don't see that as being a thing.

From the Well of Daliath:

Quote

The Fetch (pages 355-357)

What the Fetch Provides the Shaman

Spell Strength vs POW roll

Does a shaman’s fetch’s POW add to theirs for the purposes of a Spell Strength vs POW roll?

Yes. See the top of page 355: “The fetch adds its POW to the shaman’s POW against any contests involving POW VS. POW struggles.”

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Holy crap! Double for real official in the clarifications. Shaman in the RAW are just totally unmitigated badasses. 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Holy crap! Double for real official in the clarifications. Shaman in the RAW are just totally unmitigated badasses. 

I’m fairly certain that most GMs will house-rule against this once they see it in action a higher power-levels. My big question is whether to keep it for defence or not.

[Dissolv]

Shamans were always super amazing.  My usual hack when a player lost a long running PC was to give them a shaman with a 22 Pow fetch.  This edition however, they are off the rails powerhouses.  If the PoW thing doesn't convince you, the self-rez probably should!

I am reconsidering the role of arch-bad guy in the Rubble.  It seems to me that a Broo Shaman fits the bill as a serious threat. 

[Akhôrahil]

Perhaps the biggest deal is when the Shaman manages to pick up offensive Rune Magic from some Spirit Cult, and then auto-overcomes POW with the spell.

[Dissolv]

Spell trade....Sever Spirit. 

 

One use, but ends anything unless reflected, blocked by sufficiently high Countermagic/Shield (which a Shaman I expect to have the ability to both discern and dispel), a Chaotic feature, or is nullified by Divine Intervention. 

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Spell trade....Sever Spirit. 

One use, but ends anything unless reflected, blocked by sufficiently high Countermagic/Shield (which a Shaman I expect to have the ability to both discern and dispel), a Chaotic feature, or is nullified by Divine Intervention. 

While outside the spirit of Egregious Munchkinnery, I would probably make it really hard to convince Humakti to part with a Sever Spirit to anyone not thoroughly trusted. But your point stands.

[Dissolv]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would probably make it really hard to convince Humakti to part with a Sever Spirit to anyone not thoroughly trusted.

Well, the Issaries merchant might be a long time companion of his, or he owes a favor for, say for his shiny new iron Greatsword.   However you can get the same basic effect with Lightning, Mind Blast, or a couple of other spells, but they are either limited in some way (must have a mind to effect), or require more Rune points to deal with huge creatures (lightning).   The nearly automatic POW vs. POW versus human species maximum is the lever with which you can move the world.   It also is what allows you to play in the big leagues against things like the horrors of Dorastor, for example, which tend to have stupid and unattainable amounts of POW and hit points. 

The limiting factor for Shamans has always been getting enough POW to get up to that stature, honestly.   And honestly I haven't had a problem with the game being this way........yet.  But my PC's are all theists, and no one has discovered shamanry yet. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

The limiting factor for Shamans has always been getting enough POW to get up to that stature, honestly.   And honestly I haven't had a problem with the game being this way........yet.  But my PC's are all theists, and no one has discovered shamanry yet. 

I have this vague notion that sufficiently good sorcerers are going to be massively abusable, but neither me nor any player has bothered to truly read up on them.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Just a sorcerer with high rolled stats and a few POW in inscriptions can cover the whole party with spells that last years. Just gotta pick a couple excellent ones. Very quickly after we started our first rq:g campaign my LM philosopher gave everyone +2d6 damage to everything they owned that was a weapon, for at least a year, now something like 8 years per casting. Just that spell alone is enough to throw regular balance and tension out of the window for most encounrers with regular dudes. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by HreshtIronBorne

[MJ Sadique]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s basically a number you made up. We have no idea whether NPCs get POW gain rolls (in fact, the world as presented wouldn’t make sense If they did - who the heck would keep to just 3 rune points under these circumstances?), and even then, if they would get more than two such rolls per year.

Yes, it's a calculated number in best cases because :
1/ There is no chapter about NPC evolution so every player assume it's similar to player... like describe in "Between Adventures" chapter
2/ I've choosen the occupation of enchanter (which does not exist...in the table of occupation) and give it the highest income of 200L because it's as rare as a scribe...
3/ The Rule in RQG p418 clearly state that whatever the method granting your Power the "POW gain rolls are made at the end of a season" 5 seasons : 5 Gains at max !

49 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Just that spell alone is enough to throw regular balance and tension out of the window for most encounters with regular dudes. 

Like they say if forewarned man is forearmed one than a forearmed sorcerer is a munchkin in hulk mode !

Prepared Sorcerer was always powerfull, it's a pain at start but you get stronger than anyone in the very end. Sorcery is not as describe an rich as shaman in RQ-G, so they may not be as powerfull as shaman (and it's intended for the orlanthi oriented campaign) as Sorcerer need only INT and MP (no reall need of high POW) but I'm pretty sure that sorcerer are still the most dangerous. Shamans and priests need to care of their cults, Sorcerer have more liberty than anyone they have no social limitation and no need to have approval of spirits and gods...

 

I did not tweak the "Inscribing Spells" cheats but I feel a great munchkin-force hidden there... Anyone try max this out ?

[Dissolv]

2 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Very quickly after we started our first rq:g campaign my LM philosopher gave everyone +2d6 damage to everything they owned that was a weapon, for at least a year, now something like 8 years per casting

Are you sure that's correct? 

Boon of Kargan Tor requires 8 intensity to get +2d6.

Any spell requires 17 intensity to get 1 year duration.  20 intensity to get 8 years.

 

That's 25 Free INT at the minimum, and 28 free INT for the currently reported level.   And let's not forget the sheer magic points needed to buff a party.  Assuming that the Lhankor Mhy sorcerer had Death Rune and Summon techniques, which are not freely available even in the LM temples that teach sorcery, iirc, he is still burning a massive amount of magic points per party member.  Unmastered runes and/or techniques double or quadruple the cost of the spell, and that really throws off the calculations.

So those spells could require anywhere from 25 through 112 magic points for each casting!   You might want to check out pp. 386-387 of RQ:G to make sure that no mistake has happened.

Even the best case human, 18 INT, zero points of spirit magic known, zero points of sorcery known (everything cast from an item, technically possible although again, not within normal roll up parameters, and highly impractical to get there in play -- I know because one of my players is trying to juggle this problem right now).  If your player somehow got to this point, AND learned the Death Rune and Summon techniques, he could cast an 18 point sorcery spell at most.    That would be +1d3 for 1 year (very reasonable actually), or + 2d6 for 1 day (also not a bad option given circumstances).  This is very much how my old Griffin Island Greek sorcerer used to work.  Low level long lasting stuff on everyone all the time then forget about it.  But if Trolls, Draugr, or Thor-help-them Giants were involved, then he'd burn all his power that day on massive buffs, and trust that the Vikings could carry the day with them. 

It took several real life years of playing a sorcerer before he was able to item enchant enough extra intensity to move up to "mid level buffs on everyone for a full year", and the sheer magic point output required serious math.  A Glorantha character might get to Coder level magic points eventually due to the greater ease of getting bound spirits, allied spirits, and POW crystals, but this is a long term goal, and the free INT barrier is real, and it got worse in this edition. 

First the spell item matrix enchantment is gone.  You can still manage something like this for buff type spells with Enhance INT, but now you also need Fire/Sky Rune as well.  An 18 point INT caster can do +5 free INT for 10 minutes, which is nowhere near as good as a magic item you keep increasing in power month by month.   It also doubles the magic points required per buff, unless the reserves are extremely deep.  (18 points for Enhance INT, and then 23 points for Boon of Kargan Tor.  41 points to get the first buff on there -- and then an additional 23 per buff after that.)

Second, there is a limit on number of Runes and Techniques for a sorcerer, which didn't used to be a problem.  This is manageable in my opinion, assuming that you've got the huge INT to start with, but requires a campaign where a sorcerer is both physically around and willing to teach to a theist.  In other words the player has to take the time out of his way to go and get it, and who knows what the knowledge may cost him. 

So your starting "Lanhkor Mhy" initiate needs to have the skills of a talented sorcerer to do what you are describing, a wheelbarrow full of magic points to toss around, and they had to have been learned outside of character creation, as literally everything he is doing is not from the LM cult spell or rune list.

Runes of Death and Fire/Sky

Technique of Summoning

Spells: Boon of Kargan Tor, Enhance INT

Not to mention a wheelbarrow full of POW.

 

+2d6 for a year is a thing in Glorantha, but it is an end-game thing.  Something may have gone horribly wrong.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Dissolv

[HreshtIronBorne]

You can start a RAW LM philosopher with Death and Summon no problem. Depending on how the GM feels you can start with Boon of KT or learn it/invent it yourself. 

 

My LM PC started with INT 17 and inscribed 4 duration on the Boon spell. With Enhance INT it is REALLY easy to get to 22 -24 INT deoending on stats, especially if you only need 24 INT for the 20 minutes required to cast the big spell. Every day you get all your MP back, especially if you know a shaman or someone that can fill crystals and enchantment with spirits. 

 

Literally RAW allows you to pick spells and techniques from philosopher. This is the munchkinnery thread after all. I actually rolled up this PC and played it 8 years of game time, I had the Boon of KT up to 3d6 for 1 year when the campaign broke down. 

 

Philosophers can be found in urban centers throughout Dragon Pass, seeking to understand the cosmos through 
abstract reasoning. Many wander from city to city, supporting themselves through teaching. Philosophers learn sorcery, and start having mastered the understanding of one Rune and 
one technique (see the Sorcery chapter). They also start with three sorcery spells.

There doesn't appear to be any limit on what philosophers can start play knowing. There is also nothing prohibiting you from putting your Personal Skill Bonuses into even MORE new spells. 

 

Remember by RAW, "If the roll fails, then only 1 magic point is lost and the spell has no effect." There is nothing keeping PCs from trying to recast a spell as many times as they want on a day not adventuring. Even starting percentages as low as 25% can allow you to mark every spell every season and have them all up all the time. 

 

I am not saying this is bad, I freaking LOVE it. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by HreshtIronBorne

[Austin]

18 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

There is also nothing prohibiting you from putting your Personal Skill Bonuses into even MORE new spells. 

This is really key to creating an effective starting sorcerer, IMO.

18 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Remember by RAW, "If the roll fails, then only 1 magic point is lost and the spell has no effect." There is nothing keeping PCs from trying to recast a spell as many times as they want on a day not adventuring. Even starting percentages as low as 25% can allow you to mark every spell every season and have them all up all the time.

FWIW I wouldn't allow an experience check for this as a GM, because you're not casting in a "condition of stress" (RQG 415). But casting during an adventure, when every MP can matter, I probably would.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Even without checking every spell that way you can still check at least 4 a season for job related activities. Sorcerers are rad!

[Dissolv]

8 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Literally RAW allows you to pick spells and techniques from philosopher. This is the munchkinnery thread after all. I actually rolled up this PC and played it 8 years of game time, I had the Boon of KT up to 3d6 for 1 year when the campaign broke down. 

Interesting!  The sorcery comes from the profession, not the cult, gotcha.    Definitely a great example of munchkinnery in action, especially with the party wide effort feeding the magic point requirements.  I'm still not sure by what means all 17 INT were freed, but I'll look that up.

 

[Nick Underwood]

22 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Holy crap! Double for real official in the clarifications. Shaman in the RAW are just totally unmitigated badasses

Yes, the mix of uncapped Fetch POW, adding Fetch and Shaman POW, and the 1D3 POW gain from disease spirits can just gets silly quickly.

Shaman Day 1...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11
POW 12                  POW 11

(Disease Spririts) Affinity 2
    +40% to Command & Control
    Disease Spirits are now Very Common

Shaman Day 2...

Discorporate, find Disease Sprit, defeat Disease Spirit, Gain 1D3 POW, capture Disease Spirit in Fetch, command Disease Spirit to attack Shaman, defeat Disease Spirit, gain 1D3 POW... Repeat... (for 16 POW per day?)

Shaman Day 22...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11 
POW 21                  POW 309
MP 21                     MP 322

Cast Sever Sprit on the Crimson Bat (343 POW vs 300) (not sure of bat's POW...) Retire to grow a fine blue beard.

(This would take some lucky dice to get the ratchet off the ground, but there are ways of playing safe.)

Now... with some added Illumination you could really go wild on those Shamanic Abilitles.... 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Nick Underwood

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

Yes, the mix of uncapped Fetch POW, adding Fetch and Shaman POW, and the 1D3 POW gain from disease spirits can just gets silly quickly.

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it.

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

Interesting!  The sorcery comes from the profession, not the cult, gotcha.    Definitely a great example of munchkinnery in action, especially with the party wide effort feeding the magic point requirements.  I'm still not sure by what means all 17 INT were freed, but I'll look that up.

Spell inscription was used to free up all Free INT. Had all my spells inscribed by the end of the first year, was down at 8 POW though. Stacked a few points of Duration on the Boon of Kargan Tor inscription, so it is always at least duration +3 without any manipulation. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

37 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

Yes, the mix of uncapped Fetch POW, adding Fetch and Shaman POW, and the 1D3 POW gain from disease spirits can just gets silly quickly.

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it

This actually makes a ton more sense. The 1d3 POW drain from defeating a disease spirit was pretty bonkers even for my munchkin-loving butt. 

[Nick Underwood]

25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it.

I feel robbed! But something needed to be done. Thanks for the clarification.

[MJ Sadique]

4 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

Yes, the mix of uncapped Fetch POW, adding Fetch and Shaman POW, and the 1D3 POW gain from disease spirits can just gets silly quickly.

Shaman Day 1...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11
POW 12                  POW 11

(Disease Spririts) Affinity 2
    +40% to Command & Control
    Disease Spirits are now Very Common

Shaman Day 2...

Discorporate, find Disease Sprit, defeat Disease Spirit, Gain 1D3 POW, capture Disease Spirit in Fetch, command Disease Spirit to attack Shaman, defeat Disease Spirit, gain 1D3 POW... Repeat... (for 16 POW per day?)

Shaman Day 22...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11 
POW 21                  POW 309
MP 21                     MP 322

No sure about this cheat but usual Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1 (Average of 1pt) and limited to 1 gain per season so gaining (309-11 = 298POW) this much power take 298 seasons = 59 years + 3 seasons ... unless your chaman doing it during the sunstop, it's a bit more than a few days 😜.

I'm pretty sure we did not read the same rules (RQG p418)... and I'm sure the Chaman must first get the POW and the sacrifice it for the fetch to gain one;  That mean, your chaman have a (18+3-12)x5% = 45% of change to success the gain in POW and that mean which you take twice time to get from POW11 to POW309 so something around 120 YEARS. 😈

A MUNCHKIN who doesn't know the rules of the world he live usually DIE ... in your case OF EXTREME AGEING when he get back to his body 120 years after his first discorporation... 🤣

[MJ Sadique]

 

20 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Are you sure that's correct? 

...

So your starting "Lanhkor Mhy" initiate needs to have the skills of a talented sorcerer to do what you are describing, a wheelbarrow full of magic points to toss around, and they had to have been learned outside of character creation, as literally everything he is doing is not from the LM cult spell or rune list.

Runes of Death and Fire/Sky

Technique of Summoning

Spells: Boon of Kargan Tor, Enhance INT

Not to mention a wheelbarrow full of POW.

+2d6 for a year is a thing in Glorantha, but it is an end-game thing.  Something may have gone horribly wrong.

Yep 😒 horribly wrong...

15 hours ago, Crel said:

16 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

There is also nothing prohibiting you from putting your Personal Skill Bonuses into even MORE new spells. 

This is really key to creating an effective starting sorcerer, IMO.

16 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Remember by RAW, "If the roll fails, then only 1 magic point is lost and the spell has no effect." There is nothing keeping PCs from trying to recast a spell as many times as they want on a day not adventuring. Even starting percentages as low as 25% can allow you to mark every spell every season and have them all up all the time.

FWIW I wouldn't allow an experience check for this as a GM, because you're not casting in a "condition of stress" (RQG 415). But casting during an adventure, when every MP can matter, I probably would.

I personally agree with creel and even more with dissolv : HreshtIronBorney sorcerer is nowhere a LM and there is a lot more way to create this... within the set of logic/rule

I personally don't use these rules but Inscribing Spells : For each point of POW you have a focus for one unique spell with strength+1, range+1, or duration +1 without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer (no need for runes or extra). Imagine with a 8 POW spend on such focus :
-Boon of KT (not in Torvald Fragments) : 2MP (base cost) and you can have +2D6 for 12h and could cast it on on any weapon
-Finger of fire (Surely erased from any LM grimoire) : 3D6 fire damage at 340m range (you'll be kicked out of the cult if you burn a library one day... ) 🤣
-Total Recall : 2MP and you recall every thing in the 34 last years... perfect memory, something worth of the true ML sorcerer. a bit like the "Forgotten" TV series or Sherlock 🧐

You'll have only one super spell, but what the spell and the cost... only base cost, no need to know the runes nor to boost the spell. A wise Munckinnery (that I will probably ban ...or not 🤨)

[Austin]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it.

I haven't seen that clarification, and I'm not seeing something along those lines on the Well. Could you point me its way? Thanks!