Gaining Shamanic Abilities

[Tywyll]

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

Here's a simple example of getting a new shamanic ability. <snip>

(likely a few errors in this, I did it quick).

See that's a really cool story. There are a lot of choices and decisions I don't get (for example, why does he have to die to get a new power?) but sounds like a decent adventure (is discorporating really done with just a Rune Point and a Meditation roll?). Anyway, it would have been great if something like that were in the rules. Since it isn't, we can't know if that is how difficult this sort of thing should be or if it should be easier. Like people could base their stuff on what you wrote but that would be just your take, not necessarily the intended take for the game/setting.

[PhilHibbs]

16 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

There are a lot of choices and decisions I don't get (for example, why does he have to die to get a new power?)

If you want to self resurrect, you probably have to die to learn how to do it.

[Tywyll]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you want to self resurrect, you probably have to die to learn how to do it.

Sure, but it wasn't clear that that was the power he was going for? Did he have to spend POW to heal himself? 

If that is what is necessary to learn ability X, what is necessary to learn Soul Expansion? Spell Barrage? etc, etc, etc. Your initial battle with the (Bad?) Man doesn't require anything like that.

[PhilHibbs]

15 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Sure, but it wasn't clear that that was the power he was going for? Did he have to spend POW to heal himself? 

Dying in a Heroquest or other powerful otherworld ritual isn't necessarily the same as dying in the middle world (often, or usually, it is, but there are exceptions). More to the point, there is already a cost ascribed to learning a shamanic ability, "Kolat himself will dismember him, throwing his spirit to the Seven Winds so he can be remade" is just a narrative for the process.

Edited May 21, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Tywyll]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Dying in a Heroquest or other powerful otherworld ritual isn't necessarily the same as dying in the middle world (often, or usually, it is, but there are exceptions). More to the point, there is already a cost ascribed to learning a shamanic ability, "Kolat himself will dismember him, throwing his spirit to the Seven Winds so he can be remade" is just a narrative for the process.

I was just responding to your post above about needing to die to learn self-res. For all we know reading that story, he already knew how to self-res.

As to death in other worlds, is that still canon? I don't have the G2G so I don't know if its spelled out there, but I've not seen anywhere that that is how things work these days.

[PhilHibbs]

Just now, Tywyll said:

As to death in other worlds, is that still canon? I don't have the G2G so I don't know if its spelled out there, but I've not seen anywhere that that is how things work these days.

I don't know, but in my games life, death, time, causality, all these things become less clear the deeper you go. Certainly if you quest back to before Death came into the world, it makes no sense to die.

Again, don't take my musings as anything official.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

why does he have to die to get a new power?

Dismemberment is a common theme in shamanism. It's a death and rebirth motif common in mythology as well.

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

is discorporating really done with just a Rune Point and a Meditation roll?

I find it odd that you are asking about rules and haven't actually read this in the Rune spell description on page 326.

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Anyway, it would have been great if something like that were in the rules.

It's based on MGF on page 6 and page 11:

Quote

When playing and gamemastering in Glorantha, let your imagination go wild. Ignore that voice that demands rational thought and empirical data, and draw upon your unconscious fantasies. Draw upon dreams, folklore, and mythology.

 

 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Sure, but it wasn't clear that that was the power he was going for?

Self Resurrection 3 (returns in a day)

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Did he have to spend POW to heal himself?

He wasn't actually dead from physical injury. Spiritual dismemberment happens in the spirit world, his body is still in the Middle World.

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

If that is what is necessary to learn ability X, what is necessary to learn Soul Expansion? Spell Barrage? etc, etc, etc. Your initial battle with the (Bad?) Man doesn't require anything like that.

Depends how you role-play your games. I'd certainly play out a shamanic initiation with Bad Man as I did in the example as a whole session. Otherwise it's just reduced to a series of abstract die rolls and choosing from a list. What I love about Glorantha is its story potential. Look what I wrote about Bad man in the box on page 353. I could of said "Enemy of all shamans, POW 35 you must resist his attacks." Glorantha is a rich world to play in.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I was just responding to your post above about needing to die to learn self-res. For all we know reading that story, he already knew how to self-res.

He did, but only level 2.

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

As to death in other worlds, is that still canon? I don't have the G2G so I don't know if its spelled out there, but I've not seen anywhere that that is how things work these days.

If you die you die. If your spirit dies, your body will starve to death (or the shock will kill you). If you die on a heroquest in Hell, you don't come back. It's much like faerie in Arthurian legend, you are gone so everyone assumes you are dead (until you reappear). 

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Dismemberment is a common theme in shamanism. It's a death and rebirth motif common in mythology as well.

But isn't directly connected to gaining a shamanic ability in the game, got it.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I find it odd that you are asking about rules and haven't actually read this in the Rune spell description on page 326.

If you are talking about the Discorporation Rune Spell, that's different from 'simply spending a rune point and making a mediation roll' (which is what you detailed in your story).

But hey, way to be unhelpful with someone who might not have read every page of a 400+ page book. Yup, they must not be interested in rules. 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:30 PM, David Scott said:

Here's a simple example of getting a new shamanic ability. I've just given the other players discorporation to make it easy, but the ability of discorporate other certainly exists - remember discorporate is a meditation roll and costs a rune point. Another version would let the target provide the rune point or POW point. There's also the Shamanic ability of take others with you.

 

You know David Scott, when I was playing in the 80s I was using this narrative technique to bridge where RQ 3 rules had gaps (even a great game like that had holes). Describing Sacred times, initiations, spirit combats,you know, not quite made up because it has roots in shamanism, and of course, paradoxically made up because that is how to weave magic in real world shamanism, within the power of the story.

[Shiningbrow]

 

18 hours ago, Tywyll said:

(is discorporating really done with just a Rune Point and a Meditation roll?)

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

I find it odd that you are asking about rules and haven't actually read this in the Rune spell description on page 326

I'm now curious as to how this Discorporation and Meditation roll are different from the Shamanic power of Discorporation and the use of the Spirit Travel skill....

[Bill the barbarian]

 

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

You know David Scott, when I was playing in the 80s I was using this narrative technique to bridge where RQ 3 rules had gaps (even a great game like that had holes). Describing Sacred times, initiations, spirit combats,you know, not quite made up because it has roots in shamanism, and of course, paradoxically made up because that is how to weave magic in real world shamanism, within the power of the story.

Truly worth mentioning. Nothing as good or as inventive. Bravo!. I hope my players appreciated my feeble efforts.

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[PhilHibbs]

19 hours ago, David Scott said:

I find it odd that you are asking about rules and haven't actually read this in the Rune spell description on page 326.

Hang on just a second, a shaman doesn't need to expend RP to discorporate.

Ah, I see, the other characters have to spend a RP to cast the spell. That wasn't entirely clear, so I don't find it odd at all.

Edited May 22, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, Tywyll said:

If you are talking about the Discorporation Rune Spell, that's different from 'simply spending a rune point and making a mediation roll' (which is what you detailed in your story).

So to clarify this here is Discorporate from RQG

Quote

Discorporation

1 Point

Self, Temporal, Stackable

This hour-long ritual, known to a few secret societies and mysterious subcults, is like the shamanic ability. It allows the caster to temporarily detach their spirit from their body and reunite them at will, or after 15 minutes, whichever comes first.

[...]

Discorporation requires a successful Meditate roll and costs 1 Rune point.

[...]

In the example:

Quote

At about 11pm the supporters start to change the hand dance to that of the Flying Rams (discorporation ritual starts)

[...]

At midnight, the six complete their discorporation ritual and make their Meditation roll including a 40% ritual practice bonus 

If you have learned to Discorporate, you have an hour long ritual first, then meditate roll and spend a rune point. You don't need to make a Rune % roll.

41 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That wasn't entirely clear

To clarify the example I've added in the rune point (as I said there're likely mistakes in this).

Edited May 22, 2019 by David Scott

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm now curious as to how this Discorporation and Meditation roll are different from the Shamanic power of Discorporation and the use of the Spirit Travel skill....

A shaman has a natural affinity with the spirit world and is effectively in both world all the time, permanent second sight is the key here. Crossing into the spirit world is an hour long ritual and cost 5 magic points.

Using the Discorporation spell takes an hour long ritual, meditation roll and costs a rune point.

The major difference after this is that the Rune spell user is limited to 5km from their body, further requires more rune points spent at the casting. This effectively limits them to the Inner World as they have no means of finding (or the time) to reach a frontier and cross into a different region. I'd certainly allow the use of spirit travel (as it's 10%) to get somewhere particular, but the time limit is the problem unless extended.

The Rune spell is much weaker and ties the adventurer to their body. The shaman version effectively frees their spirit.

[Shiningbrow]

35 minutes ago, David Scott said:

A shaman has a natural affinity with the spirit world and is effectively in both world all the time, permanent second sight is the key here. Crossing into the spirit world is an hour long ritual and cost 5 magic points.

Using the Discorporation spell takes an hour long ritual, meditation roll and costs a rune point.

The major difference after this is that the Rune spell user is limited to 5km from their body, further requires more rune points spent at the casting. This effectively limits them to the Inner World as they have no means of finding (or the time) to reach a frontier and cross into a different region. I'd certainly allow the use of spirit travel (as it's 10%) to get somewhere particular, but the time limit is the problem unless extended.

The Rune spell is much weaker and ties the adventurer to their body. The shaman version effectively frees their spirit.

Thanks, but I was more wondering about the differences in using Meditation vs Spirit Travel.

Is Second Sight actually relevant here?

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

Thanks, but I was more wondering about the differences in using Meditation vs Spirit Travel.

They aren't related. Meditation get's you into the Spirit world, if you fail it, the ritual doesn't work. The shaman just does the ritual, they can cross with no difficulty. Spirit travel is navigating the spirit world once you are there, not travelling into it.

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is Second Sight actually relevant here?

Only that it serves to illustrate that the shaman is in both worlds all the time, where everyone else needs to cast magic or get into the spirit world to see it.

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They aren't related. Meditation get's you into the Spirit world, if you fail it, the ritual doesn't work. The shaman just does the ritual, they can cross with no difficulty. Spirit travel is navigating the spirit world once you are there, not travelling into it.

Only that it serves to illustrate that the shaman is in both worlds all the time, where everyone else needs to cast magic or get into the spirit world to see it.

That would make sense - I'm just noting that the Discorporation Spell doesn't even mention the Spirit Travel skill, only the Meditation. And, where it is mentioned, it's quickly followed up by travelling those 5kms from the body, sort of implying that you only need the Meditation to do anything with it.

[Austin]

47 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The major difference after this is that the Rune spell user is limited to 5km from their body, further requires more rune points spent at the casting. This effectively limits them to the Inner World as they have no means of finding (or the time) to reach a frontier and cross into a different region. I'd certainly allow the use of spirit travel (as it's 10%) to get somewhere particular, but the time limit is the problem unless extended.

I'd just like to note here that the 5km limit in the Rune spell was, I think, the seed of quite some confusion for my players and I because in setting a measurable distance, we understood the text to say the adventurer wanders as a discorporate spirit within 5km of their body in Glorantha. We did not understand this to mean that they had gone to the Spirit World. My understanding of the Shaman and Spirit World chapters was that such spaces can't really be defined in terms of measurement, and so I (and my players) haven't played that Discorporation pops the adventurer into the Spirit World. Although, if they found a Vortex or other spirit place, the discorporate adventurer could get sucked in.

I think this dissonance might be something to address and explain further in a future Rune Fixes or supplement.

[gochie]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

I'd just like to note here that the 5km limit in the Rune spell was, I think, the seed of quite some confusion for my players and I because in setting a measurable distance, we understood the text to say the adventurer wanders as a discorporate spirit within 5km of their body in Glorantha. We did not understand this to mean that they had gone to the Spirit World. My understanding of the Shaman and Spirit World chapters was that such spaces can't really be defined in terms of measurement, and so I (and my players) haven't played that Discorporation pops the adventurer into the Spirit World. Although, if they found a Vortex or other spirit place, the discorporate adventurer could get sucked in.

I think this dissonance might be something to address and explain further in a future Rune Fixes or supplement.

Yeah I always thought discorporation =! Spirit world...

If you discorporate you are ethereal but still in the mundane world, like a ghost. 

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

I'd just like to note here that the 5km limit in the Rune spell was, I think, the seed of quite some confusion for my players and I because in setting a measurable distance, we understood the text to say the adventurer wanders as a discorporate spirit within 5km of their body in Glorantha. We did not understand this to mean that they had gone to the Spirit World.

25 minutes ago, gochie said:

Yeah I always thought discorporation =! Spirit world...

Actually that's a very good point - if you just read the Discorporate spell, it doesn't say that you travel into the Spirit World at all.

Another thing that occurs to me is that a literal interpretation of the rules would imply that a shaman who casts Discorporation with Extension can regenerate magic points, which shamanic Discorporation disallows. The spell says that the discorporate adventurer "is treated in all respects like an ordinary disembodied spirit", and disembodied spirits recover MP don't they? Again, literal reading, and I wouldn't feel deeply burned if my GM said no.

Edited May 22, 2019 by PhilHibbs