Questions about Spirit Magic

[Bohemond]

I'm still trying to understand the way Heroquest handles Spirit magic. At the moment what I'm struggling with is what Animists do with their Runes. To use the example from HQG, Herrox is an Animist. He has Spirit 5W, Water 1W, and Illusion 15. His Spirit Rune is the basis for all his Charms, so they all have a 6W (5W +1 for the specific Charm). So far, so good. 

But what does he use his Water and Illusion runes for? His Illusion Rune doesn't have any points in it, so it's dormant, just like an Unawakened Rune would be for a Theist (say a Chalanan with the Fire Rune). But he has put 4 character points into his Water Rune. What is the value of putting points into his Water Rune at all? From a Theistic standpoint, he's Awakened that Rune, but all his Water magic depends on his Spirit Rune and as an Animist he doesn't worship any god that can give him Water Rune magic. He could join the cult of Zola Fel, but he already has Zola Fel magic from his membership in the Thirstless Society so from a role-playing perspective it wouldn't make sense to worship Zola Fel both ways and from a game-play perspective he seems to be wasting his points here.

And wouldn't it make the most sense for him to just keep sinking all his points into his Spirit Rune? That would mean that in a campaign, he would quickly surpass the Theistic players in the strength of his magic--he would have perhaps 10 experience points sunk into a single rune whereas a Theist is likely to have 10 experience points spread across 2 or 3 Runes. And his Spirit magic would get the additional +6 boost against Theistic magic. Granted, the Theists will have more flexibility than he will, but in a head-to-head contest, he's likely to win.

So how do Animists use their non-Spirit Runes? What am I missing?

[JonL]

3 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

He could join the cult of Zola Fel, but he already has Zola Fel magic from his membership in the Thirstless Society so from a role-playing perspective it wouldn't make sense to worship Zola Fel both ways and from a game-play perspective he seems to be wasting his points here.

In HQG, I don't see a necessary hard separation between the different magical practices.

It makes sense to approach Zola Fel directly via Water rather than at arm's length via Spirit if he wishes to become closer to Zola Fel, embody Zola Fel on HeroQuests, and so on. In-fiction, the things one might do approaching Zola Fel through Water will also be different than having river spirits do things for you, even if the end-result is often functionally equivalent. Sometimes this matters, sometimes not. "Something you have" can be taken away or interfered with in ways that "something you are" cannot. "Something you have" can also offer more variety at times than "something you are," despite Theism being generally more flexible, as you can have things that are contradictory or less like yourself. 

14 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

And wouldn't it make the most sense for him to just keep sinking all his points into his Spirit Rune? That would mean that in a campaign, he would quickly surpass the Theistic players in the strength of his magic--he would have perhaps 10 experience points sunk into a single rune whereas a Theist is likely to have 10 experience points spread across 2 or 3 Runes.

 There are Theists who only approach their god through a single rune also, but either way it is beneficial to not put all your eggs in one basket with a rune just like with other keywords. If you develop Spirit and Water, they can augment one another. The Devotee-level Theism feats are also something of an implicit ceiling on what one can accomplish in their domain through other means, all things being otherwise equal. Sorcery or Animism may be able to match or exceed them in certain instances, but only with a larger investment of resources.

[Bohemond]

So as you read it, I'm correct that because he is an Animist, Herrox cannot do anything with his Water rune? In order to actually do something with his Water rune, he needs to initiate into a theistic Water Rune cult? Is Herrox' player just laying the groundwork to initiate into a Theistic Water Rune cult at some point later in the campaign? 

[Richard S.]

9 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

So as you read it, I'm correct that because he is an Animist, Herrox cannot do anything with his Water rune? In order to actually do something with his Water rune, he needs to initiate into a theistic Water Rune cult? Is Herrox' player just laying the groundwork to initiate into a Theistic Water Rune cult at some point later in the campaign? 

He can still augment with his water rune I think.

[Bohemond]

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

He can still augment with his water rune I think.

But he could also Augment with the Illusion Rune. He can't do anything explicitly magical with either. 

[JonL]

Just now, Bohemond said:

So as you read it, I'm correct that because he is an Animist, Herrox cannot do anything with his Water rune? In order to actually do something with his Water rune, he needs to initiate into a theistic Water Rune cult? Is Herrox' player just laying the groundwork to initiate into a Theistic Water Rune cult at some point later in the campaign? 

He can augment with it already, enhancing his Thirstless Society magic where appropriate, even augment things he can otherwise do to degrees that are overtly supernatural ("No one can swim that fast!") thanks to having it at mastery-level, but not use it independently for magical things without some other fictional foundation.

[jajagappa]

22 hours ago, Bohemond said:

But he could also Augment with the Illusion Rune. He can't do anything explicitly magical with either. 

Mostly it would be as augments, but I'd also allow the hero to do things like the following:

• Water rune: find Oasis, find writher tracks, bargain with River Horse, collect dew, speak with fish, extinguish fires, etc.
• Illusion rune: shimmering defense, coupled with Water Rune - cast mirage, pleasing form or words, hide tattoos, etc.

They could certainly create new breakouts from those other Runes, any of which might be magical in nature, possibly reflecting capabilities or talents gained from spirits they've worked with.  Or they may reflect personality traits, items, associated beings, etc.

For reference HQG p.46: "Players can give their heroes magical abilities. These can be described as spirit magic, Rune magic, sorcery, an allied spirit or magical being, a unique magical talent, or a magical item. Magical abilities can be breakout abilities from a Rune ... or they can be a standalone ability that starts at 13..."

Note: while the shaman's tradition is associated with the Spirit Rune, and charms are either breakouts of that tradition/Spirit Rune or standalone, there is nothing that keeps you from establishing any other magical usage/breakout from your other Runes.

Edited May 23, 2019 by jajagappa

[soltakss]

On 5/22/2019 at 4:15 PM, Bohemond said:

So how do Animists use their non-Spirit Runes? What am I missing?

There is nothing stopping you from putting charms, magical abilities and so on as Breakouts of the other runes.

So, if I played an Animist and had the Water Rune, then I might have Water 10M (Breathe Water, River Eye, Frog Woman Leap, Head Waters Jump) with the various water abilities as Breakouts. These are different to charms in the normal sense, but are definitely water-based spells.

I really don't have any time at all for HeroQuest's insistence that Animists only use the Spirit Rune or whatever. I have a Keyword, I can put Breakouts onto the Keyword, that is how it works in my Glorantha/HeroQuest.

 

[JonL]

44 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I really don't have any time at all for HeroQuest's insistence that Animists only use the Spirit Rune or whatever. I have a Keyword, I can put Breakouts onto the Keyword, that is how it works in my Glorantha/HeroQuest.

The hard separations you're familiar with from HQ1 have been downgraded to more of an "Orlanthi 'All'"  in HQG. The typical cases are normative, but not restrictive, and one-off magical abilities like you describe are explicitly OK, either stand-alone or hung off of a Rune (or other sensible ability), and the rune need not be mastery-level in the latter case.

[Steve]

@David Scott any additional comments? Not that I'm doubting the wise words so far, of course.

 

[David Scott]

On 5/22/2019 at 4:15 PM, Bohemond said:

At the moment what I'm struggling with is what Animists do with their Runes.

The problem with animists is that unlike theists, their primary magic rune does little to define what actual magic they get involved with. It’s their other runes that do this. Herrox is from the High Llama Tribe whose primary element is Water and this defines one of the tribe’s background spirit societies, the Thirstless (who's primary spirit is Zola Fel). You need a 1W to join a spirit society so that's why he boosted it. So he has a natural affinity with Water magic and always augments with it, he can also augment Zortan. Any Kolati shaman would augment his wind magic with his air rune. etc. Generally your other runes define the type of spirit magic you do best with (as you can augment). But what about his illusion rune rune? As you say his Illusion rune is dormant at this point. However it's still useful as an augment if circumstances call. He's used his illusion rune to cover his move on water, later I put more points in Illusion (Herrox was my character) and got it to 1W. At that point I started seeking out illusion spirits to add to my repertoire. Putting points into just spirit is only one route to HeroQuest character development.

Have a look here https://www.glorantha.com/docs/balazar-hq2-keywords-and-magic/ I did an example Balazaring with spirit magic. Same setup, Bobandi augments his Become dog with his Beast rune.

This Balazaring https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6315-starting-runes/?tab=comments#comment-89865 example, is a little less useful as her other runes aren't high enough to join another spirit society. But as the character becomes more experienced and gets to raise harmony for example, it will become more useful. Hearthmother is actually the same as Earth Witch these days, as soon as she gets her Earth rune up to 1W she can get more Earth spirit magic.

On 5/23/2019 at 8:55 PM, soltakss said:

I really don't have any time at all for HeroQuest's insistence that Animists only use the Spirit Rune or whatever. I have a Keyword, I can put Breakouts onto the Keyword, that is how it works in my Glorantha/HeroQuest.

I've always said that you can hang your spirit magic off a representative rune. Eg

Kolati - Air rune

Earth witch - Earth Rune

Troll Magic - Darkness rune

Argrath hangs his spirit magic off his change rune.

It's the Praxians that generally do it off the spirit rune.

However it's always easier to augment with it off the spirit rune, same with sorcery off the Law rune. It's more flexible.

A Kolati casting Fly like the wind off their Air rune can augment with spirit.

A Kolati casting Fly like the wind off their Spirit rune can augment with Air or illusion to be stealthy or Beast to fly with spirit wings, etc.

 

 

[Ian Cooper]

On 5/22/2019 at 4:15 PM, Bohemond said:

So how do Animists use their non-Spirit Runes? What am I missing?

I'm writing something up, that I will figure out how to publish, because we seem to have failed to explain some things well enough.

You can do Basic Magic with any rune. For Greg this was what most folks had access to. It doesn't allow you to do anything you can't normally do, but it does let you become magically better at things you can do. This is the prayer to Barntar whilst you plough, the sword sharpening charm you use to in battle. RQ folks can think of it as most spirit/battle magic. So if you had a water rune you might know a prayer to hold your breath longer underwater, or a prayer to help your crops grow when you watered them, wrestle better etc.

Being a Runemaster i.e. having a mastery in a rune is fairly exceptional. To understand this, we should distinguish between adulthood initiation and someone initiated into the deeper secrets of the religion. Most people are not initiates with access to supernatural effects. PCs are of course all exceptional people. So a PC well have a mastery in the spirit rune, but most folks don't.

BTW although most basic magic seems to work like charms, Greg used to offer that it might be charm, a spell, or even rune magic -- just of the 'get better at doing something' over a supernatural ability.