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Lhankor Mhy sorcery

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5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A Lhankoring that goes through life without knowing sorcery is akin to a College graduate going through life Fat, Drunk and Stupid.  Their God's magic is sorcery, their God's father was Mostal, they are exposed to sorcery as part of their initiation.  That a starting Lhankoring finds life easier if he starts off with spirit magic is hardly a refutation of Lhankor Mhy being a Sorcery God.

I'm in two minds on this one. The Adventurer creation provides two paths, you can either learn spirit or sorcery. The Sorcery chapter says that initiates learn sorcery, but that's what the chapter is for. It's about how Lhankor Mhy learn sorcery, so of course it just says what sorcery they learn.

On the other hand, I have a suspicion that this choice is there for the players who don't want to use the Sorcery system. If you just want to have the simple, familiar mechanics of spirit and rune magic, then you can do so.

Does this imply some deeper truth about Lhankor Mhy, that their sorcery is just an optional part of the cult? Can you really advance to Rune Master without knowing any sorcery? I think a quite reasonable case can be made either way. Personally I prefer the latter - that it's just giving the players a simpler option, and LM is "supposed to be" a Sorcery god.

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4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Does this imply some deeper truth about Lhankor Mhy, that their sorcery is just an optional part of the cult?

Gloranthically Lhankor Mhy has the Law Rune which is associated with sorcery (I'm aware that RQG gives him the stasis rune but that's an artifact of the game system)..  In the HeroQuest: Glorantha, his sorcerous nature is even more explicit than in RQG.

As to whether Lhankor's sorcery is optional, I would say that knowing sorcery is a cult ideal that is to be expected of every Lhankoring. But Dragon pass and the Wastelands are pretty hazardous places and to be honest, Lhankoring Sorcery is geared for truth seeking rather magical power and so a Lhankoring sorceror is about as useless as an adventurer.  That's why so many learn Spirit and Rune Magics.  Such behaviour is acceptable but it is regrettable in that it falls short of the ideal.

A Lhankoring seeking to become a Rune master IMO would be obliged in demonstrating some faculty with sorcery.  He doesn't have to be very good at it or even somewhat competent - all he needs to do is to be able to cast a sorcery spell, which is why it's not a requirement in the RQG cult writeups..  In more civilized place, the standards would be higher ("oh, he's still casting spirit magics?  What a buffoon he is!") but the sages of Dragon Pass and Lhankor Mhy don't have that luxury.

 

 

 

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RAW, it is clear for me that the sorcery part is optional. A character can clearly become a priest without knowing any sorcery. This being said, I also prefer your explanation that it is to provide a choice to the players (not the character), which is a good thing considering the rules are much more complicated than the spirit magic ones.

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15 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Gloranthically Lhankor Mhy has the Law Rune which is associated with sorcery (I'm aware that RQG gives him the stasis rune but that's an artifact of the game system)..  In the HeroQuest: Glorantha, his sorcerous nature is even more explicit than in RQG.

Perhaps, but this is the RQ forum, and what is in the RQ rules is important. At least more important than what is within HQ rules!

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17 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As to whether Lhankor's sorcery is optional, I would say that knowing sorcery is a cult ideal that is to be expected of every Lhankoring. But Dragon pass and the Wastelands are pretty hazardous places and to be honest, Lhankoring Sorcery is geared for truth seeking rather magical power and so a Lhankoring sorceror is about as useless as an adventurer.  That's why so many learn Spirit and Rune Magics.  Such behaviour is acceptable but it is regrettable in that it falls short of the ideal.

A Lhankoring seeking to become a Rune master IMO would be obliged in demonstrating some faculty with sorcery.  He doesn't have to be very good at it or even somewhat competent - all he needs to do is to be able to cast a sorcery spell, which is why it's not a requirement in the RQG cult writeups..  In more civilized place, the standards would be higher ("oh, he's still casting spirit magics?  What a buffoon he is!") but the sages of Dragon Pass and Lhankor Mhy don't have that luxury.

Ruleswise, I think I can't agree with you, but at the worldview level, I like your point of view.

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

Perhaps, but this is the RQ forum, and what is in the RQ rules is important. At least more important than what is within HQ rules!

There's is a background to Lhankor Mhy that is far more than just what appears in the RQG rules.  

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Just now, metcalph said:

There's is a background to Lhankor Mhy that is far more than just what appears in the RQG rules.  

That is possible. I have almost everything that has ever be published officially for RQ, but there is not much in it. As I don't have what has been produced for HeroWars/HeroQuest, I can't base my judgement on it. Whatever the case, this multi-game world information should be part of the Glorantha forum. If here in the RQ forum, it should be based only or mostly on what is in RQ products.

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

That is possible. I have almost everything that has ever be published officially for RQ, but there is not much in it. As I don't have what has been produced for HeroWars/HeroQuest, I can't base my judgement on it. Whatever the case, this multi-game world information should be part of the Glorantha forum. If here in the RQ forum, it should be based only or mostly on what is in RQ products.

Do you consider the Guide a RuneQuest product?  Lhankor Mhy is given the Law Rune there, which RQG p50 states is associated with sorcery.  The interpretation of Lhankor Mhy that I've provided is consistent with all sources (and game systems) and makes better sense than the interpretation of Lhankor Mhy as the God of Optional Sorcery (which makes as much sense to me as arguing that for the Lunars, Illumination is optional).

 

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I always felt that Lhankor  Mhy got sorcery so that Prax and Dragon Pass had sorcery available. Personally I never liked sorcery and making it Lhankor Mhy sorcery optional means that I can safely ignore it in an Orlanthi context.

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1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Do you consider the Guide a RuneQuest product?

No, it is not. It is sold by chaosium as a systemless world product.

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Lhankor Mhy is given the Law Rune there,

Which means RQG and the guide are not in agreement.

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

which RQG p50 states is associated with sorcery.

OK, for RQG, stasis is associated with sorcery. If my english is not too bad, that does not mean that everything that is stasis is linked to sorcery.

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1 minute ago, albinoboo said:

I always felt that Lhankor  Mhy got sorcery so that Prax and Dragon Pass had sorcery available.

Dragon Pass had sorcery through Heortland, but Heortland is not part of described homelands.

2 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

Personally I never liked sorcery and making it Lhankor Mhy sorcery optional means that I can safely ignore it in an Orlanthi context.

Yes, of course. Your option is perfectly valid. This is part of the reason why I said that this choice given to the players (and GMs) is a good point.

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

OK, for RQG, stasis is associated with sorcery. If my english is not too bad, that does not mean that everything that is stasis is linked to sorcery.

Stasis is not associated with sorcery - Law is.  Lhankor Mhy is given stasis rather than Law in RQGas a game design for keeping things simple (for the same reason you can't get a master rune).  Since thew writeup of Lhankor Mhy in RQG is a shortform writeup rather than a full one, it's dubious to go around saying that it is the only permissable interpretation of Lhankor Mhy and that other writeups of Lhankor Mhy should not to be considered.

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2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Dragon Pass had sorcery through Heortland, but Heortland is not part of described homelands.

Yes, of course. Your option is perfectly valid. This is part of the reason why I said that this choice given to the players (and GMs) is a good point.

Sorcery wasn't in RQ2 but Lhankor Mhy was. The original published version of Lhankor Mhy was the standard rune and sprit magic format. 

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When I saw they had changed the rune setup for Lhankor Mhy, my first thought was "well, so much for never Gregging the Guide".

Edited by Akhôrahil
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30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The interpretation of Lhankor Mhy that I've provided is consistent with all sources (and game systems

No, it isn't.

As said above, this LM sorcery hasn't appeared in any other *Runequest* source. 

You might want to change your "all" to a "some" ... Or if you're lucky - "most".

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2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

As said above, this LM sorcery hasn't appeared in any other *Runequest* source. 

I didn't say all runequest sources,  I said all sources and stand by it,  My interpretation is consistent with the description of the Cult in RQG.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I didn't say all runequest sources,  I said all sources and stand by it,  My interpretation is consistent with the description of the Cult in RQG.  

 

 

So... "all sources... Except for the important ones" ... 

Please, supply a quote from the book that supports your claim! (Yeah, I'm looking at it now... And there's nothing there!!!)

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8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Please, supply a quote from the book that supports your claim! (Yeah, I'm looking at it now... And there's nothing there!!!)

p389 of the RuneQuest Rules.

Quote

Lhankor Mhy
Lhankor Mhy apprentice scribes (lay members) are taught
logical reasoning and wisdom literature as part of their
training. Most apprentices begin their studies between the
ages of 6 and 15.

To get away from this, people have resorted to saying this applies only if they learn sorcery.  Which is not stated in the text.

Quote


Upon initiation into the cult, the initiate is taught to
master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command.

Again a fairly clear mention of being taught sorcery.  To get around it, you have to again mentally insert qualifications that are nowhere present in the text.

Quote


Additional Runes and techniques can later be learned if an
appropriate book can be found or if a teacher can be located
and persuaded. Only cult initiates are ever taught sorcery.

People have used the last sentence to infer that the teaching of sorceyr to cult initiates is optional.  All that it means is that the cult does not teach sorcery to lay members.

Quote


The Lhankor Mhy cult teaches a limited number of sorcery
spells from a collection of documents called the Torvald
Fragments, including: Enhance INT, Identify Otherworld
Entity, Geomancy, Logical Clarity, Logician, Reveal Rune,
Solace of the Logical Mind, Speak to Mind, and Total Recall.
Not every temple possesses all these spells and some temples
include different spells in the collection

Pretty much most temples of Lhankor Mhy have a copy of Torvald's Fragments from which they teach spells.

Rather clear cut to me.

Now I dislike the Sorcery is optional interpretation of Lhankor Mhy and provided the more nuanced Sorcery is an ideal earlier in this thread .which  preserves the split nature of Lhankoring magics, which the RAW only interpretation suggests.  Please discuss that rather that persist in making false statements about what I said.

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Hello,

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

To get away from this, people have resorted to saying this applies only if they learn sorcery. 

People is me.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Again a fairly clear mention of being taught sorcery. 

Yes, but not that it is mandatory.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

People have used the last sentence to infer that the teaching of sorceyr to cult initiates is optional.  All that it means is that the cult does not teach sorcery to lay members.

No, what I 'used' is :

RQG p76: Lhankor Mhy cultists may start with up to five points of cult spirit magic or up to three cult sorcery spells. (emphasis not mine, but RAW).

RQG p76: Cultists trained in sorcery start as having mastered the principles of the Truth Rune and the technique of Command (see page 381).

RQG p73: If your cult teaches sorcery, you may start with up to three sorcery spells from the cult’s list. If this option is taken, you do not start with any cult spirit magic.

The 'Cultists trained' means that there are some that are not, and the 'or' means that you can have only one of the two at character creation time.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Now I dislike the Sorcery is optional interpretation of Lhankor Mhy and provided the more nuanced Sorcery is an ideal earlier in this thread .

As I already explained, yes, I agree with you ... at world level, but not at rules level.

 

Edited by Kloster
'it is', not 'is is'

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38 minutes ago, metcalph said:

To get away from this, people have resorted to saying this applies only if they learn sorcery.  Which is not stated in the text.

Not directly connected to the discussion - I think we'd all have to say that " logical reasoning and wisdom literature" =/= "sorcery".

40 minutes ago, metcalph said:
Quote


Upon initiation into the cult, the initiate is taught to
master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command.

Again a fairly clear mention of being taught sorcery.  To get around it, you have to again mentally insert qualifications that are nowhere present in the text.

Nope! It's in the section specifically devoted to sorcery, so it's a perfectly valid assumption to think that it only applies to those who choose to learn sorcery - especially as the (yes, limited) cult write-up completely fails to mention it as a requirement for either of their Rune Masters, and as part of the Cult Skills...

42 minutes ago, metcalph said:
Quote

Upon initiation into the cult, the initiate is taught to
master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command.

Again a fairly clear mention of being taught sorcery.  To get around it, you have to again mentally insert qualifications that are nowhere present in the text. 

Yes, again - valid inference - again, given what it says in the cult write-up which is a pretty solid "qualification" that is clearly present in the text!

It is a clear cut mention that sorcery is available (probably in most temples), but in no way suggests that it is mandatory - again, because it's not in the cult write-up!

 

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Rather clear cut to me.

Naturally - it's called "Cognitive Bias".

A greater deal of 'interpretation' is required to assert that it's a requirement for all initiates.

It's a ridiculous assertion to say that *all* Rune Master's are required to have 'mastered' sorcery to teach it to initiates.

 

Personally, I'd be happy to agree with you if the evidence was there to support the argument (my first RQG character would be an LM sorcerer...) - but it's not! It makes more sense to me to suggest that the use of sorcery in LM is part of a sub-cult devoted to it (but can be taught to other initiates).

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54 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Not directly connected to the discussion - I think we'd all have to say that " logical reasoning and wisdom literature" =/= "sorcery".

Nope! It's in the section specifically devoted to sorcery, so it's a perfectly valid assumption to think that it only applies to those who choose to learn sorcery - especially as the (yes, limited) cult write-up completely fails to mention it as a requirement for either of their Rune Masters, and as part of the Cult Skills...

Yes, again - valid inference - again, given what it says in the cult write-up which is a pretty solid "qualification" that is clearly present in the text!

It is a clear cut mention that sorcery is available (probably in most temples), but in no way suggests that it is mandatory - again, because it's not in the cult write-up!

 

Naturally - it's called "Cognitive Bias".

A greater deal of 'interpretation' is required to assert that it's a requirement for all initiates.

It's a ridiculous assertion to say that *all* Rune Master's are required to have 'mastered' sorcery to teach it to initiates.

 

Personally, I'd be happy to agree with you if the evidence was there to support the argument (my first RQG character would be an LM sorcerer...) - but it's not! It makes more sense to me to suggest that the use of sorcery in LM is part of a sub-cult devoted to it (but can be taught to other initiates).

It's best put down to your Glorantha mhy vary..........

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2 hours ago, Kloster said:

If my english is not too bad, that does

You are playing and debating a very complicated game system and holding your own so, Mon ami. je va essayez votrez langage pour dire tu parle anglez tres bien.

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Finally no longer in the Geas thread...

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

A Lhankoring that goes through life without knowing sorcery is akin to a College graduate going through life Fat, Drunk and Stupid.  Their God's magic is sorcery, their God's father was Mostal, they are exposed to sorcery as part of their initiation.  That a starting Lhankoring finds life easier if he starts off with spirit magic is hardly a refutation of Lhankor Mhy being a Sorcery God.

Lhankor Mhy is the god of all knowledge, which makes all sorcery (regardless whether Lhankoring, Malkioni, Vadeli or Mostali) and all literature, all tradition and all jurisdiction based on laws and precedents his province.

The ideal Lhankoring is a polymath and expert in all of these. And probably a cult hero one step short of apotheosis.

(Belintar may have almost fit that bill, but doesn't seem to have limited himself to being a Sage or even an initiate of LM...)

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Gloranthically Lhankor Mhy has the Law Rune which is associated with sorcery (I'm aware that RQG gives him the stasis rune but that's an artifact of the game system)..  In the HeroQuest: Glorantha, his sorcerous nature is even more explicit than in RQG.

Yes, there is a strong portion of Lhankor Mhy tied to sorcery, but his main rune is Truth (as the current owner, or in the phrasing of this document linked from glorantha.com, its manifestation). Hence, any character in the pursuit of knowledge/Truth is a valid  Lhankoring, whether he knows sorcery or not. The manifestation of sorcery would be Malkion (or Zzabur, or Mostal, or all of them).

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

As to whether Lhankor's sorcery is optional, I would say that knowing sorcery is a cult ideal that is to be expected of every Lhankoring.

I disagree. It is an ideal expected in societies tolerant towards sorcerers, but not expected in "every" local Lhankoring in societies where sorcerers are suspect. Given the prevalence of Lhankor Mhy in Theyalan areas, at most half of them live in societies tolerant towards sorcerers, so the cult's expectations would be different.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

But Dragon pass and the Wastelands are pretty hazardous places and to be honest, Lhankoring Sorcery is geared for truth seeking rather magical power and so a Lhankoring sorceror is about as useless as an adventurer.  That's why so many learn Spirit and Rune Magics.  Such behaviour is acceptable but it is regrettable in that it falls short of the ideal.

Whether this is regrettable or even laudable may depend on the local library/temple.

If we extend the definition of Lhankor Mhy to cults  like that of the "sacrificer of cattle", Buserian, or his Lunar offshoot Irrippi Ontor, we get to explore even more varied Truths about the deity.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

A Lhankoring seeking to become a Rune master IMO would be obliged in demonstrating some faculty with sorcery. 

IMO (and all of this is, as of now, a difference of opinions), demonstrating some faculty in sorcery would be a similar demand as demonstrating some faculty in producing potions (as per the alchemy skill in RQG), and might actually be interchangeable in Gloranthan terms. Hence, even if potion-manufacture might be one of several alchemical disciplines which might satisfy the Law Rune demonstration in HQG, it wouldn't constitute sorcerous spell-craft in RQG. Another such skill set might be a manufacturer of mechanical instruments using gears or other such translation elements, again a manifestation of Gloranthan sorcery that is different from spell-craft.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

He doesn't have to be very good at it or even somewhat competent - all he needs to do is to be able to cast a sorcery spell, which is why it's not a requirement in the RQG cult writeups..  In more civilized place, the standards would be higher ("oh, he's still casting spirit magics?  What a buffoon he is!") but the sages of Dragon Pass and Lhankor Mhy don't have that luxury.

I doubt that more than a minority of Holy Country libraries have the requirement for Lhankor Mhy rune masters to be able to cast sorcery - Heortling Mythology certainly doesn't seem to suggest this. Safelster probably is a different proposition.

But yes, Rune Masters of the Bearded One are more than likely to call one another "buffoon" or other unpleasant names or adjectives, as do their emulators on the various lists...

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