davecake

Magasta is a husband-protector of Ernalda too, though. And I think is mostly going to be approached either an ancestor of the local river god, or Choralinthor/local water body of water, rather than as an ancestor of his worshippers directly. There really is not much point in having much to do with Magasta unless you are near a large body of water, as he is mostly a sea monster god. And he is actually difficult to become/remain initiated to for even most Water creature, as becoming and remaining initiated requires large regular POW sacrifices. You mostly initiate to him en masse in times of danger when you want sea monsters or similar to destroy your enemies and save your people. Then go back to worshipping mostly less demanding and terrifying deities. He really is a bit Cthulhu-ish.

They regain Yelm cult rune points as if worshipping at an associated cult ceremony. So, some, but not as good as if they were worshipping at a Yelm cult ceremony. But then, they could probably do that before, if they understood that Yelmalio is the same as Kargzant (which is the cult that any Grazer man unlikely enough to not have the right lineage to worship Yu-Kargzant would be in). Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant are always acknowledged as associated cults by the Pure Horse Tribes - they basically understand the myth of Yelm returning to the world as Kargzant becoming Emperor of the world, succeeding his father. In Grazer society, their worship rites are probably combined anyway, so the point is moot until you get outside it. I assume the Grazers have acknowledged Kargzant and Yelmalio as the same god by now, in the time of Monrogh if not before. The rules are basically the same for a Dara Happan Yelm worshipper, but they conceive it very differently and the cultural context is different. They understand that Antirius was literally the part of Yelm he left behind when he was killed (separated into parts), and at the Dawn all Yelm's parts were combined again. So they see that Yelmalio and Yelm are of course associated gods, because one is literally part of the other. These funny barbarians who think Yelmalio is the son of Yelm are of course misunderstanding this badly. And while they might understand that Antirius was Yelm becoming part of the Many, and their recombining means Yelm is the One again but has knowledge of the Many (and is thus Illuminated), so it makes sense that mythic sense that anyone can participate in Antirius rites but only the elect participate in the sacred Yelm rites, the current social climate in the Dara Happan empire means that no one really sees a need for a separate Antirius cult, and it just doesn't practically exist there. But, you know, it could if anyone wanted it to, which no one really does in the heartlands (gods like Polaris or Yanafals Tarnils fill that niche now), but it's understood it survives among barbarians. This account lightly skips over many changes in Yelmic thought over the years (particularly about Illumination and the nature of Yelm), which individuals may know or understand differently, but that's mostly irrelevant from both a rules perspective, and for how it works in current Glorantha. To understand how a Grazer would relate to Yelmalio you mostly have to look at how a Grazer understands it, rather than how a Dara Happan Yelm worshipper would understand it - though it largely works out the same. But there is also the factor that the Sartarite worshippers of Yelmalio are going to have quite different reactions to Grazers and Dara Happan nobles wanting to join in their worship ceremonies.

The best way available to us as players to resolve these disputes is a playing Gods War.

It's basically an acknowledgement of having the right lineage. In many places in Dara Happa it is equivalent to being acknowledged as a full Citizen of the city (though it is a lot easier to become a Half Citizen, which carries many of the same benefits). The interesting thing is it really is initiation in a magical sense - the point of POW that would be sacrificed normally at initiation - just the real responsibilities and benefits haven't started yet. I think in Dara Happa, this is a kind of Bar Mitzvah for the ruling families, a ceremonial acknowledgement but before true adult responsibilities or active cult membership. I think that it is so socially important that even sons who are not expected to take any active role in the work of being a warrior-noble ruler (physically uninclined later sons, ardent Lunars, decadent dilettantes and confirmed members of the Drones Club (thanks Nick), and so on) and never become a full initiate will still go to the effort of becoming a lay member as a matter of course - it proves their membership of the elite rulership club, and is important for their descendants and social status. The small number of lay members, even if they might magically count as initiates, does not prevent Yelm from having many Great Temples, of course, as the majority of all the people in Pelorian society are in associated cults of Yelm and participate in major Holy Day ceremonies. David, what is your source for the 'no gender restrictions'? Yelm in its Dara Happan form has always been presumed to be as gender restricted as they get AFAIK.

The Pentan Yu-Kargzant worship mostly IS the Pure Horse Tribe. So they are the original culture the Grazers descend from - men worship Yelm as Yu-Kargzant, shamans are Golden Bow tradition, women worship Dendara as La-Ungariant, and they also revere Hyalor Horsebreaker and Hippoi. And they uses horses for everything, which isn't very practical, but magically important. Their shamans also often use the ascetic traditions that became the basis of Sheng's magic, and I think probably still have a lot of lingering adherents of Sheng's system (which combined that asceticism with a harsh version of Kralorelan mysticism). I think they also have some better access to a wider range of light and sky magic, and some other shamanic magic, than the Grazers do, but that is largely because the Grazers live in a landscape dominated by Storm and Earth worshippers - on the other hand, the Grazers have an easier life of it because many practical problems can be dealt with by getting the vendref to do it, and have access to more powerful Earth magic via the FHQ. But that is only one tribe of the 10 in Pent. Most solar tribes have a small percentage of Yu-Kargzant initiates at best, probably small clans among the tribes, the majority of the tribe worships Kargzant (effectively Yelmalio with all the phalanxes replaced with cavalry, mostly light cavalry horse archery, and no gifts and geases) and Eiritha as cattle goddess, and herd cattle, and also revere Hippoi and Hyalor. Yu-Kargzant is revered in Kargzant ceremonies with that hereditary minority acting as a priest caste, so Kargzant worshippers have access to a little Yelmic magic (just as Yelmalio does). They mix in a fair few other light gods, especially Polaris as a major fighting god (again, though, as a cavalry god rather than a phalanx god). Their shamanic tradition is much less focussed on Golden Bow (which still requires hereditary Yu-Kargzant lineage drawn from the Pure Horse clans), and more varied, and particularly includes ancestor worship and star captains that are tribal ancestors. A few other weird cults have drifted in as minority practices here and there, including some worship of the Blood Sun, and probably some lingering adherents to Sheng's harsh asceticism. And of course there is the substantial minority, 25%, of Pentans that are the Storm Tribes, still following the traditional Pentan/Yelmic social system, but with worship of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant and other Sky gods replaced with the Storm gods, Orlanth, Humakt, Storm Bull and Gagarth. We still don't know much about them, but they sure raise a lot of interesting questions. I'm sure they still have Eiritha as their most common womens deity, but not sure who the average male rider worships. They still have a lot of ancestor worship and tribal ancestors.

GROY says Jenarong destroys the bird rider temple to replace it with a horse temple. That is in Raibanth, it takes a couple more generations of Emperors to finish the job across Peloria. Depends what you think the real truth about BernEel Arashagern might be as well. The idea that BernEel Arashagern was both, as a serpent deity, draconic, and a part of Yelm, and so Yelm was always a dragon was the justification the Golden Dragon cult used for putting a dragon on the Imperial throne. Of course, the more prosaic truth seems to be that BernEel Arashagern was instead symbolic of Yelm's fertility powers that he has always had, and is a serpent in the sense of being Yelm's 'trouser snake', seems better supported in the text. The 'galaxy brain' synthesis of the two ideas could be attempted, as Greg says at times (at least in relation to Kralorelan mysticism) that the mystic dragon/serpent is the Kundalini coiled serpent, but that is an enormous stretch. A better supported theory is that Yelm is pictured sitting on a dragon throne, and like Orlanth Yelm wins his sovereignty by conquering the dragon powers, as Burburstus the celestial dragon, and they serve as a symbol of his kingship, just in Yelm's case suppressed, literally sat on, and its dragon conquering that is important to early Dara Happen religion. Which compares interestingly with Ursturburn in the Entekosiad.

Yep. If you can't prove your descent from Yelm, you are going to have real problems. A female hero quester could seduce a minor Sky deity or hero known to be descended from Yelm, and then let her child found a Yelm cult (HonEel did something similar for different reasons), but it is very much a great heroic thing to found a new lineage of the Yelm cult. And it appears to be a universal Yelm cult thing, not a Dara Happen cultural one. Yes! And this is how the Yelm cult generally operates in Dara Happa or most of Pent, though in the Pure Horse Tribes including the Grazers, the majority of men are Yelm initiates,

I prefer somewhere in between. The game has a Leap spell. Most Orlanthi should have it. Let them use augments or other heroquesty boosts to enhance their Leap. Or just make the chasm a bit smaller if you want them to be able to leap it.

Its the little rune that couldn't, yeah. About 80% or more of all Stasis magic ever written up seems to be Mostali magic. Even when a cult is given the rune, it is often tentative or temporary, and does not actually come with magic (Lhankor Mhy, Yelm)

Orlanthi Justice - there is a situation, people are unhappy and causing trouble and threatening to cause more, you must try and fix the problem so that people become happier with the situation and no longer cause trouble. The law gives you agreed on rules for working towards resolution. The law works best when it adapts to be complexities of the situation and is flexible. Yelmic Justice - there is the law, it defines how people should behave, and what should be done if they do not, usually punishment. The law works best when it is consistent and firm.

Telmori generally consider sex with non-Telmori to be essentially like bestiality - humans look the same, but are a different race. It generally is regarded as a serious crime. Of course, shamans might get away with it for weird shaman reasons if you want them to.

He has many associated cults that use the Death or Fertility runes, though. Yelm's power comes from his position as ruler - and he has access to a lot of good magic from associated cults. Though Yu-Kargzant and Yelm are the same god in the core, God Learner, ways, in practice the writeup in the rulebook is more or less the Yu-Kargzant writeup in a Grazer context - in practice, Pentan Yu-Kargzant is somewhat different, and Dara Happen Yelm very different, because of the cultural context that determines things like associated cults, social role, skills taught, even if their core spells are similar. Yes. Though probably a bit weaker than the variety of spirit magics accessible to Golden Bow among the Pentans.

Though the Orlanthi tradition tends to conflate the self-mastery and demonstrated prowess of the aspiring hero with political leadership, in acknowledgement of Orlanth, in the Orlanth Rex cult. In many other cultures they are far more distinct. The Orlanthi do not have a rune for Sovereignty, but rather assert that when the world is going well Sovereignty and Mastery are united. Other cultures associate Sovereignty or Rulership with entirely different virtues, and understand them in entirely different ways. Pamalts Power rune, for example, is about political leadership that is not associated with personal power or dominance, but with the ability to build coalitions and convince differing groups to cooperate - a good chieftain can be one who is able to cause great things to happen but maybe does almost none of it himself. For a Yelmic lord his power should come by being the rightful occupant of a position and then doing what the position requires, a hero who arises from the many to rule (Orlanth style, demonstrating Mastery) was traditionally considered disastrous (though of course, the Lunars have complicated that, it still remains the core of Dara Happen thinking).

Indeed so. But mechanisms made of the crooked timber of humanity are notoriously unreliable. A good argument could be made (and probably has been, by White Moonies and other dissidents) that the Examiners of the Red Goddess cult now sustain some of the problems they were meant to prevent, for example.

Illuminates often have techniques to identify Illuminates. Light or dark are subjective judgments of moral character, and can't be determined by magic. If you identify an Illuminate who is concealing their Illuminated status and performing odd deeds, questions may get asked. The Lunars attempted to set up a system to determine the 'right' sort of Illuminates from the wrong sort - but its just questioning the Illuminated on their beliefs and judging the answers they give. Yes, the thing is, illuminates are NOT always righteous, are they? This is why the Gods have mortal agents.

I think almost all of the specific claims theory are wrong, but plausibly things that idiot God Learners might have believed, and thus the theory as a whole plausible.

Or this is the far south, and it’s the Red Camp of Innocence becoming the Blue Fire Sea.

The Vadeli may, of course, try - but historically failure to manipulate Slarges seems to have been the downfall of the Vadeli empire in Pamaltela. The Vadeli proved adept at manipulating the Artmali/Veldang, but maybe Slarges are not human enough to manipulate emotionally, and too individualist/eccentric to easily manipulate with logic. I do have a theory that the Doraddi Slarge creation myth does not mention the unique bicyclic reproduction cycle and the difference between giant and lesser Slarges, so there may be some later myth era about how the species was split in two, known to few besides the Slarges and a fun mystery for PCs to uncover. I never had a good idea for what it was though - but maybe it was to do with a Vadeli attempt to curse the Slarges? Or a Slarge magic to change their species to better destroy the Vadeli? I also have a theory that there most of the major Chaotic deities owe their origins, or at least current form and prevalence, to Vadeli magic from the Oabil/Chir empire. We know Ompalam and Darleester are derived from Vadeli slavery magic. And Jraktal seems virtually just an anthropomorphisation of Vadeli Tapping into an evil god. But in addition: - the Vadeli were masters of undead creation, stealing the spirits for powering their sorcery and the bodies as slaves, which sounds very clearly connected to Gark the Calm - they manipulated and subverted the human empires expertly, and are known to have indulged in all manner of sexually perverse behaviour, which would explain Seseine and the prevalence of succubi - Pocharngo seems to specialise in the ritual creation of various weird dangerous servitor races, which sounds like Vadeli sorcerers weaponising Chaotic mutation for their wars against the Brithini and others. It would not be surprising if the Vadeli (or maybe Artmali in the late, fully corrupted, stage of their empire) created the Grue as living weapons, night riders, hoons as a weapon against elves, etc. and the watchwere are just too implausibly useful to not be a deliberate creation. So, of course, if the Blue Vadeli do return, they are likely to first become active in the south, and it will be absolutely thoroughly awful for everyone.

The Waertagi are also associated mostly with Piscoi mermen, who they have interbred with, which means most likely the Malasp. While the Waertagi are said to have been allied with the Ludoch of the Mirrorsea during the reign of the OOO, it does seem likely there are quite significant tensions between the Ludoch and the Waertagi, given how much the Ludoch and the Malasp hate one another (for various reasons including the Malasp tendency to regard cetaceans as tasty food).

The flaw in the ‘Vadeli claim credit for the Slarges’ plan is that, thanks to the Slarges destroying their empire, there basically are no Vadeli around in the areas where that would be useful. The Slarges appear to have destroyed all inland presence of the Vadeli.

Most of them are coastal. I think the Vadeli, without their higher castes, are not really able to organise themselves as an organised force away from the coast. They used to have an alliance with the Wolf Pirates, but I think no more. But there are a small number in Nochet, and probably in other coastal cities - and probably Brown Vadeli traders, mostly. I think quite minor in all cases - though the Vadeli might explain why Ralzakark and the Lunars appear to know of Seseine. I don’t know of anything they’ve done in central Peloria, actually. the slavery magic of Fonrit was originally Vadeli magic from the ancient Vadeli empire, coopted by Garangordos centuries ago to for the foundation of modern Fonritian civilisation - but that was a very long time ago, and may not have much direct connection to the modern Vadeli. The slarges do not seem to be Vadeli creations, and they actually seem to be very hostile, and the slarges seemed to be largely responsible for the downfall of the Vadeli empire. I think in general the Slarges and Vadeli are not friends. Though the giant Slarges are highly individualistic, so there may be exceptions. A reactivation of the Mostali-Vadeli alliances seems likely - not all Mostali, but probably with Slon in the South, and possibly Nida in the West. Neither sounds great news for anyone else - and Nida possibly bringing them into conflict with the Brithini allied Seshnelans, and their Waertagi allies.

The Waertagi are said to have interbred specifically with the Piscoi. And the other Piscoi avoid the surface, and appear to hate non-aquatic people even more. So the Waertagi almost certainly cooperate with the Malasp - it’s more plausible than extensive cooperation with Yssabau or Gnydron, and both those races are far smaller than the Malasp. I think it’s likely the Waertagi enlisted the Malasp to help destroy the God Learners, as their revenge for Tanian’s Victory. IMO the Vadeli welcomed Hrestol and his followers as Judges because they were literally unable to solve certain disputes and questions without any Talar/ Yellow caste Vadeli, who were all destroyed (without losing their immortality, anyway). The modern Vadeli often rely on a weird work around - there are exceptions to normal restrictions on other castes exercising leadership authority when commanding a boat, so the modern Vadeli empires are all organised as maritime fleets, with admirals as the highest leadership. (There is some dark humour to be had in comparing the Vadeli to the sovereign citizens conspiracy theory about everything being maritime law).

Well, that certainly sounds like my experience of festivals. Just the minstrels have electronic amplification now. The latrine digger will no doubt have strong opinions about not putting inappropriate things in the latrines and only using the bronze age equivalent of single ply toilet paper.

I think Fonrit sees itself more or less like Kush to a broader Pamaltelan Egypt, but long after the fall of the New Kingdom. The Agimori of Fonrit see themselves as the true heirs to the great ancient Doraddi civilisation of Tishamto to the South (only they have kept its civilization alive thanks to its rediscovery by the Glorious ones, none of this Doraddi 'progress backwards' stuff), and see themselves as sort of worshipping the same deities in a new, better, way, a natural continuation. They are, of course, mostly wrong about almost all of that. Garangordos justified conquest of the Vendang by claiming he was restoring the ancient Pamalt ruling magic, with Glorious Ones recreating Pamalts Necklace, but the Agimori of Fonrit are mostly descended from the Gendara people. Garangordos ignores the whole Thinobutu myth cycle in favour of associating himself with Pamalt and his defeat of Chaos with the Firefall, and rulership of the Earth (rather than the Thinobutu myth cycle of getting kicked around by the sea and Chaos, and continually having to migrate away due to other powers). And Fonrit was never part of Tishamto, what Agimori were there were probably mostly subjects of the Artmali then the Vadeli. Of course, the Veldang of Fonrit see it differently - they see themselves as the heirs to the real Empire, the Artmali Empire. They first freed Fonrit from the elves, and troublesome barbarians from the North killed Artmal, then they got conquered by the Vadeli, and the Agimori were never anything but subject peoples until Garagordos came. Their version of history is probably a vast oversimplication, if not an outright lie too - but they too still see Fonrit as originally a branch of the great ancient Empire to the South, they just have a different idea whose empire it was.

I think that the FHQ must allow herself to be possessed by Sorana Tor in the various sovereignty rites, including her sacred marriage with the King of Dragon Pass. But I am sure there is a lot more to it than that. When there is a blood sacrifice, it can sometimes be to Maran Gor, if it an enemy of the Earth etc. But I think the sacred marriage is about, in part, the King offering himself as a potential sacrifice to the Land Goddess (in this case Kero Fin) if he does not fulfill his duties to the Earth. It is acknowledging that the Land is the real source of sovereignty.