davecake

Just going to jump back to the Bless Pregnancy part of the thread, and say that this is one example where, although it may be egregious munchkinnery, it may be an example of the sort of egregious munchinkerry that Gloranthan occasionally do. And one example is likely the Eel-Ariash, who probably have done this as one of the many thing they have done as part of their super hero breeding program. And that’s how you get Jar-Eel, who probably started with many characteristics at near human maximum at birth.

I think that guidelines to how wyter normally operate is very useful. My only comment is that ‘war wyters’ such as She That Strikes From Afar (from the bestiary) or Thunder Bird (or any of the unity wyters described in the Glorantha Sourcebook) are going to function quite differently, as combat and warfare is part of their purpose, and expenditure of Power in battle is going to be a more strategic choice. I’d really like to see this fleshed out more, with more detailed rules and guidelines, in a future book on the assumption that PCs (most obviously those running 11 Lights in RQG, but there will be more) may end up core members of such wyter wielding magical groups. It is very clear that use of such strategic level magic is largely about wyters in Glorantha, and RQG should allow players to eventually command such powers. For example, expending a large proportion of the wyters POW on an epic magical feat is something that certainly any community is going to be reluctant to do in normal life. But in the midst of a massive magical battle, such as the Four Arrows of Light, or when your group needs to do something incredible to avoid being eaten by the Bat? These are the sort of situations where PCs will hopefully find themselves in if your game is sufficiently epic - it would be good to have more concrete guidelines about how to handle it.

Delecti is an undead hero and archmagus, whose powers go far beyond a normal vampire, but the Dancers in Darkness, who are the ‘normal’ level followers of Delecti’s path, seem to be pretty much standard Vivamort vampires, other than knowing a few of Delecti’s special magic techniques, and perhaps some variation in creation ritual (and they seem to lack some minor powers here and there). And Delecti’s marked preference for women - surely there is a story there that harks back to his mortal life, perhaps an obsessive love? Or is an unknown myth, perhaps related to the goddesss of the land that was the marsh? A story where Delecti is trying to seduce a clan woman to become a Dancer could be a fun one - one where physically, the PCs can only hope to stand against the forces of Delecti temporarily, but must seek a different means to protect them permanently. We never did get the monograph on vampires that was promised as part of the Guide Kickstarter, did we? And there are a few questions left unanswered. Are there other vampire traditions than Vivamort? In particular, is Nontraya a different vampire tradition in meaningful ways? What other vampires might there be, are there other vampire heroes besides Delecti? Surely the vampire kings of Tanisor, Illuminated vampires, had some special tricks? To an extent those players who want a wide range of different vampires (such as anyone wanting a little bit of White Wolf vampire clans in their game) can make do with specialised sorcery spells, but it would be interesting if there was more. Can some vampires summon Nontrayas demon army? Do some have greater Darkness powers? Why can some shapeshift into bats or wolves? We might hope for all this to be answered when the Vivamort cult is published - or we might just be left with further uestions around sorcery.

But that isn't comparable to becoming a noble - it is a test for which nobles may ascend to an even greater level. It isn't comparable to a Crown Test, it is comparable to seeking to become King of Dragon Pass, a magical contest between those who are already kings. We have all sorts of bits and pieces of knowledge about various lower positions. We know that most positions within the tripolis are based on Yelmic patrilineal descent, we know that temporal authority is a prerequisite for the magical (from the description of the Yelm Imperator sub-cult) rather than the other way around. We know that there are positions that do not require the right lineage only Imperial authority, but that these are different to those that do (and in a minority). We know that the Emperor can raise a lineage up, but that this seldom applies in the same generation. And so on. In other words, the Empire is ancient and complex and there are many ways to wield power and authority, but we know that the primary nobility within the core of the Empire is hereditary, and lineage is more important than magical tests for most noble positions. But most nobles will seek both temporal and magical authority. It's really not in Dara Happa - the right lineages are generally a tiny minority of the societies they rule over, and pattrilineal descent is general enough to inherit nobility. Being initiated into the Yelm cult at all marks you as part of a noble family. Within the Pentan tribes, it is practically a bit more like you describe - within some clans, everyone (or a majority) will be of the appropriate lineage, and the actual Chief may be selected on merit from those qualified. But then, as they don't acknowledge the authority of the Emperor, they have no Imperator sub-cult at all, and are cut off from the full power of Yelm. Which I'm sure bothers them not at all, because they also have all that cool shaman stuff.

It more or less the other way around in Yelmic culture, you get most of the temporal power first and then seek the full magical authority. Inheritance of the title is automatic. Then you are able to seek entrance into the Yelm Imperator cult, Yelm the Leader. Until you are a member of the Yelm Imperator cult yourself, you govern with the assistance of a Yelm priest. To become a member of Yelm Imperator, you must have proven you have the Justice of Yelm by being an experienced (5 years) Sun Lord (Rune Lord), and you must be consecrated by the Emperor. Consecration could occur quickly after assumption of power (if the noble is already an experienced Sun Lord, and it is convenient to the Emperor) or it may never happen (if the noble never qualifies for Sun Lord). It is only during this Consecration ceremony that the new Imperator symbolically (and in many families, physically receives a corresponding enchanted item) the Mantle of Leadership, the Crown of Heaven, the Sceptre of Order, the Girdle of Command and the Orb of Authority. The Loincloth of Morality and the Sandals of Protection may perhaps be donned earlier, but I think that is more symbolic - they demonstrate worthiness and lack of impurity, not power itself. You must be consecrated by the Emperor because in Dara Happan culture, power flows down from above, from Yelm to the Emperor to the Nobility. And in the modern Lunar Empire, the Emperor is not going to consecrate you unless you have also become a member of the Red Goddess cult, which implies Illumination. But there are un-Illuminated, un-Consecrated nobles - they just govern with the assistance of Yelm priest, who may veto their actions. (a bit of thought about how this system works in practice, noting that some Yelm priests are retired Yelmic nobles while others may be priests of associate cults promoted into the priesthood, should give you some idea how complicated Dara Happan politics is. And for the modern Empire, it gets worse, the Examiners of the Red Goddess cult are directly appointed by the Emperor, and control entry into the Red Goddess cult, so control entry into the Red Goddess cult, so entry into the Imperator role. And if you are inclined to think evil of the Empire, ensuring all Yelm Imperator members are Red Goddess initiates ensures they are all Chaos tainted Illuminates. All praise Moonson and his wisdom!)

For an Orlanthi King, or Queen, you do a Crown Test. If the game system you are in needs a Mastery Rune to get that status and magic (as HQG does but RQG and 13AiG do not), that gets you the Mastery rune. Otherwise, it just gets you the Magic and Status. The Crown Test is not a formal quest with known stations. You go into a place of darkness and return with something showing your worthiness. For other cultures it would be different. Yelmic cultures, in general, only allow some leadership positions to be occupied by those from appropriate patriarchal lineages - there is no extra requirement like a crown tests.

It’s not a corruption contest. We already know the Lunars use Chaos monstrosities at need. The story is in part about the tragic fall of the Loskalmi from a people who imagine themselves wise and pure and perfect beyond all others to yet another morally compromised corrupted polity - whether they fall exactly as far, or in exactly the same way, is hardly the point. That is certainly one possible explanation. Certainly not the only. Not even the only one in this thread. I think that is a decidedly idiosyncratic interpretation of the medispection concept. I think it’s designed to prevent them repeating moral flaws of the God Learners - the whole point of the Loskalmi tragedy is that they will believe they are totally morally correct in all they do, and will repeat some of the disasters of their past enemies based on a different set of moral flaws.

Except the quote isn’t ‘enter the god time and use others myths’, it’s ‘rob its denizens’. Could you explain how robbery isn’t morally suspect?

It sounds like there was quite a bit of unpublished stuff concerning Fronela. That might be pushing it a little, it is be on more of a war footing than the Kingdom of War, who more less exist to do nothing else. First I'd heard of it, love to know more.

Arkat discovered links in the heroplane, and eventually began to creatively go 'off script'. He invented creative heroquesting, and changed his role over time to suit his purposes at the time. He began by simply changing his cult affiliation over time, and questing as each, until he eventually noticed they overlapped. For the first time, rather than a series of set scripts, he treated it like a place that could be explored. But just like any other place, there is a big difference between exploring the heroplane and simply treating it as a place where you know there are some people you can beat up and rob and take their cool stuff, as the Meriatram quote states. That attitude, that the heroplane is simply a place full of things to rob and steal with no other intrinsic value, is exactly one of the things that got the God Learners in trouble (and actually, something that I don't know Arkat ever did - as far as I'm aware, when Arkat quested a Zorak Zoran troll, he did so sincerely).

It is important to remember that an ogre etc avoiding Storm Bulls isn't usually particularly suspicious. Avoiding Storm Bulls is generally considered sensible.

Its kind of literally the opposite of Arkatism - Arkat (post-Gbaji war at least) has been associated with respect for heroquesting. Remember the Arkat cult and the God Learners were bitter enemies. Eg from Arcane Lore "Arkat's cult controlled heroquesting. They had rigorous entrance requirements and maintained strict rules and iron discipline. They demanded respect for the magics, and a tender care in treating with them. The cult policed the Hero Plane, seeking unwanted or obtrusive heroquesters and expelling them. They made many enemies that way, but maintained stability on the Hero Plane." That does sound more or less like people are calling him a God Learner because he has a plan to act like a God Learner, yes. Yes. Is he talking about venturing in to myths of his home culture and following the paths of previous culture heroes? Or is he intent on looting the myths of other cultures for quick magic power. The latter is rather implied. It is far enough that it is not that much harder for either to reach there. The Kingdom of War is not preventing anyone from Loskalm from getting to Timms. All it says really in the Stelae is that the Kingof the West has "had rebelled against the gods and oppressed the Arrolian Properties." The Arrolian properties are very close to Timms. And rebelled against the gods could mean lots of things. The pictoglyphs don't seem to have much mention of it at all - their commentary on goings on in the West seem mostly concerning Seshnela. Not that it;s a theory I'm committed to, its just a suggestion. But it seems plausible enough at this point. And if the Loskalmi aren't messing with God Learning or Chaos or something, we don't really have a theory how they survive.

Anaxial is revered as the founder of Yuthuppa - he founded it by landing his boat there after the flood. Yuthuppa means 'Gods boat' in Dara Happan. Anaxial is actually the guardian deity of Yuthuppa.

The Ban wasn't that long ago. IMO the Loskalmi Empire not only sees itself as ideal compared to its neighbours, its ignorance about them is huge, and in many cases their knowledge is just a list of errors, historical grievances, and deviations from the ideal. Its xenophobic and arrogant at a deep level due to its combination of ideology and history of isolation. In some ways sorcerously weak compared to eg the Rokari, they are not able to rely as much on a deep knowledge of sorcery and broad expertise and organisation - many of the Hrestoli sorcerers begin seriously studying sorcery only in middle age, or at least well into adulthood, compared to the Rokari zzaburi who begin at age 6 and are solely dedicated to it. So the Hrestoli approach to sorcerous warfare is going to be very different. The Rokari are conservative and organised - I suspect many of their sorcerous workings are huge rituals that are slowly worked on, or prepared for, over long periods of time, and discussed with the Talars at many points. The Hrestoli must leverage their other strengths - I suspect more reckless, relying on magic techniques other than pure sorcery on occasion (a lot of alchemy I think), and particularly heroquest type workings that rely on the their men of all to achieve magical ends by dint of personal heroism and their additional capabilities beyond sorcery. They try to build heroes. And a potential problem with that approach is that the personal authority and power of a Grand Wizard Knight is hard to challenge - if one of them goes way off the deep end and decides to veer into forbidden sorcery to win a battle that seems otherwise doomed, it is hard for anyone else to do anything about it. And their Men of All, especially those that have risen to power mostly within the Ban or within central Loskalm, have been told how correct they are their entire lives, and have never faced a serious threat, must surely be very prone to arrogance and hubris. So while I am sure the KoW embraces Chaos somewhat ( I see their hundred gods of war as including Than headhunters, Vampire led ghoul bands, Cacodemon bushwackers, etc.), the idea that it is a faction within the Loskalmi that resorts to reviving Arinsors Chaos Sorcery seems more and more likely. Even if they do not, Sir Meriatram seems headed straight into God Learner territory ("He has learned of several secret ways to enter into the God Time and rob its denizens of magic and artifacts to aid his war.")

Quite how the Kingdom of Loskalm defeats the Kingdom of War is a good question. I don't think they are able to do so by military might alone, though the Loskalmi will do their best. I think the Zendamalthan military engineers will do a good job of inventing some form of artillery, perhaps catapults and ballista with sorcerous or alchemical payloads. The Wizard Knights will perform incredible magical rituals. And it all won't be enough, the KoW have such a range of vicious military magic, and will have all sorts of tactics including undead armies, blood sacrifice powered magic, hell demons, forbidden sorcery, etc. The is mysterious stuff going on behind the scenes, that I think will hold part of the answers to what happens with the Lunars later. I've heard the KoW situation is somehow being manipulated by the Queen of the Kiss in Zoria, who in turn may be in touch with the Lunar powers somehow. She gets defeated by Gunda the Guilty, but perhaps that defeat is not permanent? There is also Sandy's revelations to consider - that in the desolated, ravaged dead and empty heart of the Kingdom of War there are innocents who can form the heart of a new society after the KoW destroys everything, but only if the KoW never find out about their existence. It does kind of sound like some sort of project to form a new creation. Then there are the Prophecies on pg 222 of the Guide. I think the Nameless Man is somehow the instigator of the KoW, and the Chaos magic of Arinsor returns sounds like it might more likely by a Kingdom of War project - but how much worse would it be if it was actually the Loskalmi resorting to Chaos Wizardry to defeat the KoW! Gathering the Three Weapons of Talor sounds like (as I suspect it was always intended to be) a project for player characters.

That was my interpretation, too. He is (if you count the crown he is about to receive) showing symbolically that he is of all four castes, and so a Man of All.

I think it isn’t permitted to Zorak Zoran, but those damn Illuminated Arkati just go and do it anyway. Cheats.

I definitely think that the spirit of HQ is to use Group Simple Contests routinely for battles. Even if you only use Extended Contests for climactic battles, they can still get a bit long and dull, as the players have so few tactical choices. I have been toying with the idea that on victory in a round of an Extended Contest, instead of the normal consequences, a situational modifier or augment can be removed from the loser. Usually this works pretty well narratively, and makes it tactically much more interesting. Eg the attacker dispels or counters your magical augment, or disarms you so your cool weapon is out of your hands. Also, giving major NPCs sidekicks is an interesting way to make a single NPC or two take on an entire group without making them simply much more powerful than the PCs (being much more powerful than the PCs tends to emphasise luck and spending Hero Points over tactics).

A Thane is a noble, and many PCs are Thanes. Clans have nobles, not just tribes. Absolutely Noble should be an OK PC profession. Make them the head of a major stead, or the child of a major NPC thane. Chariot drivers are not particularly urban - kind of the opposite, actually, they are a very old-fashioned thing. There aren't any normally in the Red Cow, but of course your PC could be the only one (perhaps they joined from another clan?). They could be the chariot driver for a major NPC, which leads to fun conflicts of loyalty. While many entertainers are travellers, the Red Cow could easily support a clan skald. A Philosopher or Scribe would have been trained in Jonstown, but no reason you could not have a PC who was trained in Jonstown but has returned to the clan for some reason (perhaps their parent died and they need to look after family). A civilised city philosopher drawn back to clan life sounds like it is full of roleplaying potential. They would have to return to Jonstown for holy day rites. I agree on Thief - though same rule applies, if you really wanted to let them be a character who has come to the clan from elsewhere for some reason (such as exile or de facto exile (eg they fled enemies) from their home city). They'd have to be lying about their shady past obviously. In general, my philosophy is any single PC that does not fit the strict requirements is a fun story generator, as long as the majority of the party fit the main themes.

They do not all actively serve in her personal bodyguard, which in any case is large. Pretty much every Humakti in the Grazelands is in this sub-cult. There aren't really many sub-cults that are too specialised for PCs - they already have all the combat etc magic they need from the main cult, so my experience is many players treat sub-cult as a bit of a roleplaying issue. And the default campaign setting for RQG (and the original Sartar HQ campaign setting) is very close to the Upland Marsh, and the Six Stones Humakt temple. I think I've had two PCs in this sub-cult in my games. But one of the few sub-cults that is common in Prax. And not that specialised, as he is more of a generic undead fighter, and undead are pretty much the generic Humakti antagonists (including Zorak Zoran undead).

That sounds more like a Lhankor Mhy Sword sage to me. I guess you could initiate into both, or make an associated sub-cult. Humakt does not judge by the law of the community. Humakt judges by honor. For most serious crimes in Orlanthi community, one of the worst punishments is exile. Humakt would absolutely argue that it is better to be exiled than dishonoured.

I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. Greg was very knowledgeable of a wide range of animist and ecstatic traditions all over the world, and only got detailed knowledge of Indigenous Australian traditions fairly late in Gloranthas history AFAIK. I’m sure it as a source, but one among many. And I think the Dreamtime and the song lines might be more influential on the Spirit World than the God Time.

You say ‘not for practical purpose’, but I think that is exactly backwards. For magical and spiritual purposes, it may or may not matter. For practical purposes, it matters a great deal whether you have travelled there physically or spiritually (in RQ terms, in the mundane world or the Spirit Plane). And to acquire the magical knowledge that might allow you to travel there in the Spirit World, you probably should travel there physically first, so you can do things like learn the right songs, interact with sacred plants and animals, etc. The song lines songs often include the knowledge of how to physically get to the next site on the line, and to learn a whole song you must travel along the line. And of course never assume that just because someone is an animist spiritual healer etc that they are not practical. My wife once attempted a seminar given by central Australian ngangkari traditional spiritual healers, talking about their work to medical staff from the hospital there, and their differing roles. They explained (in their language, through a translator) how they travelled a lot, they would travel to someone who was in distress and talk to them (sometimes a journey of hundreds of km), and often their diagnosis would be that when they travelled they had left part of their spirit behind, and the ngangkari would have to travel back to where the Spirit was, retrieve it, and then reunite it with the owner. During the following question and answer session, a doctor spoke up and asked how they communicated over such great distances to know where they were needed and coordinate getting around. They looked at the questioner incredulously, and held up their mobile phone. And also explained that they usually travelled these great distances in a ‘Toyota Land Cruiser’.

There are multiple entities in the Gods War game that are not much known in Glorantha Lore so far, mostly giant monsters. Anyone know any more about: The Behemoth (the massive dinosaurish Earth being) Specters - commanded by the Malkioni - appear to be elementals that combine 4 different elements - Sandy once described ( http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd1/1995.01/0503.html ) some very dangerous Illusionary beings called Specters, but these seem beings of elemental power not Illusion and Illusion specters were found mostly in the East Isles, so don't sound like the same beings at all. The Kraken - sea monster second only to Magasta The Leviathan - cosmic monster, recorded in the Guide as the Island Beast, but that is about all we know about it, no history or interaction with other beings. Anaxials Roster mentions Golatis the Behemoth is one of the parents of Oralza the Roc in Malkioni cosmology. More likely the Behemoth is the same being as the Green Behemoth, who patrols the shoreline of Generts Garden. The guide mentions kraken, but not The Kraken. Anything else?

I’m not. Quite aside from the wackiness and fun of Kivolic sex magic, the Austerity Wars stuff in RM clearly suggests that there is more to it, including the ‘correct’ practice of other forms of magic. But the question, in both game terms and in terms of ‘paradigm’, is whether this is a different form of magic, or just some way of mystically enhancing other magic. We don’t seem to have a good answer currently. Though it is interesting to note that if we considered the RQ3 Red Goddess magic as a form of special magic available only to Illuminates that enhances spirit magic, that would fit the description very closely. I tend to think that it allows humans (who have acquired draconic Illumination) to ignore the normal restrictions on what magic they can use (as Illumination does), and the EWF then is able to teach the Dragon magic normally only available to dragonnewts. Of course, we know very little about Dragon magic. But that is, of course, not the only think you can do with (and much other EWF experimentation used Illumination to explore the Green Age or combine other magical practices and so on - the EWF was a huge empire and magical movement, far more complex than a single cult or set of practices). And Darudism is a whole thing again. The Path of Immanent Mastery is probably false Mysticism, trying to run the mystic transformation idea backwards. And I simply don’t think we currently know enough about Darudism. I think this is slightly confused. Refutation is the orthodox practice, and does not consist of austerities but Venformism is different, and designed for those who found the pure Mysticism of Oorduren too hard (eg mortals unable to spend meditating). Sivolic practice is about austerities. Do not confuse pure meditation with ascetism etc, though it might appear that way to us. In general IRL mysticism, there is the idea that the goal of mysticism is that pure moment of spiritual insight, but that requires silencing all distractions, including those of the body and mind, and much practice is required to control the body and mind enough to be able to quiet them. Magic powers might be gained along the way in the way, but it’s a tool along the journey, not the destination. Austerities are practices that are useful, but not of real value themselves for someone who wants to disengage from the world. Totally. But venfornism is not refutation, and orthodox mystics who practice Refutation only might not be very fun PCs. The Red Moon strikes me as exactly that. And FWIW, so does the Dragonnewts dream to me. And the Empire of Avanapdur. Quite possibly the Bright Empire did build such an area in Dorastor, only we see only echoes and shadows now.