Joerg

Storm Season is - temperatures permitting - a magically rewarding time for raiding activities. As long as you aren't freezing to death, storms and rains are your allies. Given the hard to maneuver terrain, you would probably be better advised to go for portable plunder rather than cattle. I should hope so, yes... This still is only a weaker rite, and while it may possibly be essential that such rites are carried out while the majority of the Gloranthans actively supports the renewal of the world, the groups performing these fringe rites may very well be less integrated in the magic of the new year. Years have a different meaning in Glorantha. Each Sacred Time the world is re-created. Without the uncoordinated yet joint efforts of the inhabitants of the world, it might fragment again, the strands of the web holding together the shards might weaken, or the shards caught within might drift free. Portions of the world might become Hidden Lands when and where Sacred Times rites go foul, or aren't performed at all. The Heortling tribes all had their own centers of survival, and their own tricks and dark secrets how they made it through the Greater Darkness. The only survival stories that we know from western Kethaela are the Solung cave for the Caladralander followers of Veskarthan, the Pig Hollow of the Harandings, the Blackmaw Underworld strategy at Nochet, and the Nochet exodus into the Obsidian Palace. The Necropolis was active during the Greater Darkness, and had to be put to rest by the Strong Man in the Silver Age. Ezel probably was sleeping an enchanted sleep, possibly disturbed by Nontraya, but left alone for some reason or other. The Ditali had their own place of survival, too, but weren't part of the network built by the Silver Age Theyalans. We have basically no idea how Esrolia looked before the Greater Darkness, except for Nochet, Ezel and the Necropolis, and we lack the origin story for the Necropolis (which logically would have to be placed in the Storm Age in its current function, since Death as per the current situation was unknown before, and which may have been a more harmless entryway to the Deeper Earth before). I wonder whether the Necropolis played a role similar to Alkoth, and how its allegiance was towards Nontraya. Sleepers awakened or frozen folk successfully defrosted after the Dawn might be a way to enter additional cultural groups at least without going against published canon. Caves full of sleepers all over Esrolia definitely is an option, and re-discovering these may have seen traumatic failures where monsters found such places and fed on the sleepers. The massive population growth in Esrolia doesn't have to rely on more folk surviving there, though - 1700 years in one of the most productive lands anywhere on Gloranthan would have taken care of that.

I am not so sure that the lowlands experience that much rainfall - they receive most of their water from the runoff from the highlands. About half of the Pelorian bowl practices wet farming, and also many dry farmers use irrigation to water their fields. With their experience in irrigation, I suppose that the Pelorians will be experts in draining their roofs. For the wetland dwellers, I expect reed huts similar to those of the Euphrates/Tigris estuary, possibly on reed pontoons in order to float up when the Sea Season floodings swamp everything. Having seen a documentary on Sri Lanka yesterday, I wouldn't be astonished to see lots of reservoirs and high cisterns for water management throughout Fire Season.

I was confused about the "half-citizens" assigned to social standing rather than descent. Avivath was a street sweeper of noble blood, and quite likely a citizen. Half citizens were originally (under Vuranostrum) a different ethnicity admitted into the Dara Happan cities. There ought to be down-on-their-luck noble Yelmic families in poverty and unsuitable jobs... It hasn't been made clear how rising among the Lunars rather than the Dara Happans could land you in a class way above your birth station. I don't think that satraps' clans necessarily are Yelmic nobility in origin. I suspect the Eel-ariash to be of Lodrili origin, for instance, and they have managed to achieve nomination as satraps twice. That said, the Yelmic families are firmly entrenched in the elite of the Lunar Empire. But they have to accept parvenu newcomers as their social equals at the Red Emperor's court and in offices. Most Pelorians never initiate to any deity. Yet they surely expect an afterlife in the Gods World. We know how the Kralori rely on their dragon emperor to lift them to a blissful afterlife. What is the Pelorian method? Pantheon initiation?

Outlaw bands are pretty much in the same situation. In this situation, you might turn to the Darkness Survival myths of Heort - while not actively supporting the renewal of the world, you still protect the bits of the world you inhabit, and the folk within these bits. And you can do these while on the run - being chased might even be beneficial to your rites. Heort himself was a shaman, and what he did required no organized temples or massive group efforts. Having said this, the best introduction to this era is in the Stafford Library Book of Heortling Mythology. There are no ready-to-play sources for this kind of rites at all, whether clan activities during Sacred Time nor alternative rites to perform.

I apologize for carrying stuff relating to the Doraddi section and to next week's reading here in the Praxian thread, but this is about the Praxian immigrants, their probable origin, and their possible route. Sure. Rather close to the Nargan Sea. Basically, it is the place where the Agimori spread from. I would have understood your objection if their lands had been west of the Nargan Sea. Mormortishamto lies east of the northern tip of the Nargan (map p.586), and roughly on the border of Pamalt's Fields in the God Learner maps. About between Jolar and Kothar. The Doraddi spread from here northward, reached the Fensi mountains, and crossed them in the gap that did not lead into dense yellow elf jungle. Is it an urban civilization? I see evidence for volcanic hill forts, not unlike the Manimati ones, but this appears to be some survival form of settlement removed from the early urban civilization of Tishamto. Sure - I don't expect the Doraddi of Jolar, Tarien or Kothar to know about them. However, I do expect Doraddi-descended folk in the -ofeys and in Laskal. The Gargandites have no early myths, only conquest myths, whereas the Banamban folk appear to be related to the Agimori origin story as related by the Doraddi (from all over Tarien, Jolar and Kothar, not limited to the speakers of Doraddic). True, the other stuff is more recent. It is one reflected by a couple of Outer World realities. This is the Godtime. Pinning down exact dates becomes slippery. Still, if you want to attempt that, and put any more faith into the god learner maps geography than in their annotation of those maps, I find it safe to assume that the Agimori who followed Baba Ulodr walked all the way, and didn't cross any seas. They will have crossed rivers, including Sshorg, but that puts their crossing of the Sshorg Sea back to the Late Golden Age. Which makes their stated mission to fight Chaos a bit problematic, I admit. But let's break it down into the story of the trek from their home cities at Pamalt's Fields through Vithela past Fethlon into the Wastes. Their first chaos foes would have to be found in Vithela, which has a rich background of antigods with chaotic ties emerging in waves. Let's assume that Baba Ulodra led the Men-and-a-Half against forces of e.g. Keltari, or at least on the long march getting there. Revealed Mythologies tells us only about the deeds of the mystics in overcoming the forces of the adpara. And to the Vithelans, this Agimori trek would have looked like any other Adpara invasion. The Agimori passed through Abzered and Sechkaul until they reached Genert's Garden - possibly only just coinciding with Earthfall, or following it, taking up a new Chaos to chase after. I can see how you take their route through Loral - if they started in Laskal. I don't think that that was their starting point, though. There is no evidence or even hint whatsoever for Thinobutans to follow Baba Ulodr into the north and east. There is one group of Thinobutan descended folk who do use Lodril-like magic, the Kimotans. None of the others show even the slightest affinity. From Jolar, if I remember our discussion about Doraddi boats correctly. And Hunralki is explicitely from Jolar, too. They did not include Men-and-a-Half. Which is fitting since there shouldn't be such a thing as a Man-and-a-Half sailor. (The example character in the River of Cradles campaign was controversial for his ties to Zola Fel...) And the Agimori in Laskal immigrated from Jolar during the Artmali wars, as far as I can make out. Doraddics have their roots in Kothar at the Dawn. Doraddi encompass the mortal, normal sized offspring of the Agitorani, the people following the example of Dorad. I wrote Fiwan Hsunchen because the term Fiwan isn't that well known. I thought about putting Hsunchen in brackets. This is the same problem as differentiating between Doraddic-speaking folk of Kothar and the Doraddi as Agimori descended from the Agitorani. I think we agree that there are three distinct groups of Hsunchen (if we use the Eastern type for the entirety of the beast human folk): the Hykimi of the western Greatwood, of Wareran race, the Fiwan of Pamaltela, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen of the East. The Great Serpent is called Hykim and/or Mikyh in western Genertela, Korgatsu in the Shan Shan region, and Langamul in Pamaltela. They all have the First Four Friends along with the Great Serpents, but their myths diverge e.g. with the Trickster (Bolongo in Pamaltela, Eurmal among the Hykimi) and other localized histories. I think we do, sort of. Revealed Mythologies p.43 - the Fiwan are the 16 old people surrounding Langamul. The rest goes back to the universal Hsunchen stuff. The Thinobutan Soli and the Langamul of the Fiwan myth create their humans or human beasts without Pamalt, and without that First Drinker stuff. I expect the Fiwan to have a common place of origin, similar to Hrelar Amali or the Korgatsu lair in the Shan Shan. Yawn, and no thanks. We have no evidence of any other Men-and-a-Half reduced to standard Doraddi size. I can see how you might want to start the trek from Laskal, but that's fairly unlikely, and far away from their homeplace. So no Impala Founder, no Storm Bull ancestry? Nice to be back in Prax, but... really? The Pygmy peoples of Genert's Garden and the Jungle are a bit of a mystery, but Men-minus-a-Half cannot be the answer. The Impala riders inhabit the dry parts of Prax, and have quite limited access to water. Wouldn't that invert their stature? This theory has more holes than it has connecting threads, IMO.

Sure, mundane Gloranthans can do so. Mythically, sex was invented to re-integrate the original male who was separate from all fertility. I haven't seen any Gloranthan cultural equivalent for Ringworld's Ri-shatra. Sure, there are Zoria. But these cities are about fertility, and fertility is about offspring. Absolutely. Parthogenesis isn't restricted to that myth, it is also part of what Tilnta is about. There is a reason why all those elemental and place spirits are female. It is the water that makes volcanic eruptions so explosive... The presence of female Agimori in the expedition is noteworthy anyway - a significant difference from the Men of the Log story of Wendaria. Yeah, Lodril, the god of control. Lodril's interactions with goddesses reliably create offspring, like e.g. Vangono. There is a difference between the Men-and-a-Half and the Doraddi - the absence of plant lineages. This may have to do with the decline of Ernalda, or it may be an indication that they left before Dorad experienced death. Their description in Borderlands and Beyond doesn't mention any female role. There are exactly three times that the female pronoun is used, once "both he and she must drink" and twice about adoptees. Either the Men-and-a-Half are the most egalitarian folk anywhere on Glorantha, or that text is missing something major.

Isn't this one of the cases of We Tried That Already in the Doraddi section? The Doraddi had Tishamto, an urban culture, during the rise of the Artmali Empire, and I see little evidence of the Artmali destroying those cities. The Praxian MAAH would have come from this urban culture, too - their warrior elite. I agree that there was a second Age of migrations (after the first migration of the Mountain Peoples families to the four camps), but I don't see them as a single migration group. Borderlands and Beyond has the long RQ2 write-up of the Men-and-a-Half (p.31): North and East to Vithela - that means past the Yellow Elf Jungle, presumably bypassing the Jhostrobbios jungle of Dinal, confessed to be untouched by any outside influence. My guess is to the southeast, because of the ancient enmity between the aldryami and the Agimori. They needed to cross at least the Sshorg river on their trek there. The land bridge mentioned is Abzered, whose sinking (or rather, the not sinking of the surviving parts in Teshnos) is tied to Tolat and his sword. I would expect the Agimori to pass most of Fethlon (another hostile, yellow elf forest) through the lowlands between Melib and the mainland, now flooded. I wondered about the Teleosi, too, and I am with you in giving them a migration history that may have touched Loral. While the Fonritians clearly recognize a racial difference between the Garangordite, Doraddi-descended immigrants and the dark-skinned folk of Thinokos (and Kimos, Maslo and Kumanku), they still are labeled as Agimori racial type. Those types (which are also applied to the Hsunchen of the continent) aren't defined by direct ancestry. Looking at their distribution, I would expect a greater similarity between Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen and Masloi than between the Fiwan and the Doraddi. Their creation stories share more similarities than those of the southern folk (Hoolar, Jelmre, Pelmre and Agitorani). This makes me inclined to have the Teleon folk - all of whom are of normal size - of mostly Thinobutan ancestry rather than having ties to the Men-and-a-Half. They might have some Artmali admixture, but that goes for the Thinobutans as a whole. Waertagi admixture would be more recent, and limited to Maslo. So, yes to a migration of coastal Agimori not just into the west but also into the northeast, but no to a Men-and-a-Half ancestry (even in extreme dilution) for the Teleons. Also because of the well documented breeding problems of the Men-and-a-Half. I don't see any chance for finding any half-breed descendants of the Men-and-a-Half anywhere outside the Doraddi-descended lands, and even there extremely rare. Not that bachelor warriors would absolutely abstain from intimacy with local women, but those wouldn't be magically eligible for conception. Borderlands and Beyond again: Note the requirement for untainted water. It strikes me as fairly funny that the archetypical phallic deity is at a loss how to make children. What did his followers do with their phalli before?

Asking the Great Old Ones at various Tentacles, the answer was yes, there are Men-And-A-Half left in the veldt, but they are a minority, outbred by those who took to drinking like normal humans. In a way, the MAAH are similar to the Brithini, subject to strict behaviour limits to avoid losing their closeness to the Agitorani. I wonder whether this is a strict ascetic order which elevates them through generations of adhering to this behaviour rather than preventing the slide to normalcy from a nearly non-drinker status. Sandy Petersen maintains that the non-drinker Agitorani are the (morally) weak and cowardly of the original folk. The MAAH don't quite fit this picture - the Praxian ones regard themselves as the elite of their war god. On the question of the identity of their god in Prax, I wonder whether they have a strong link to the planet Tolat, whose god is notably absent from the Pamaltelan pantheon even though we know that he was active there during the early Artmali Empire (but not in the defence of the Artmali empire against Vovisibor).

What exactly makes you choose the 1000 BCE to 1000 AD period as your baseline comparison? I can point to more advances from 1AD to 2001 AD. A better comparison would be the Central European Bronze Age from 3500 BCE to 500 BCE. It starts with the sky disk of Nebra and the palisade winter solstice observatory temple nearby, and culminates in the Hallstatt Salt Trade. The European Bronze Age produced Stonehenge, Newgrange, Knowth and Dowth, the alleys of Carnac, or the intercontinental trade routes from the Cambrian tin and gold mines and the Baltic amber mines with the salt mines of Hallstatt and the Mycenean, Cretan and Fertile Crescent cultures. The town (or small city) of Biskupin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin ) in Poland shows a pre-migration settlement very similar to an Orlanthi town. Leaving the Celts or the Mediterranean cultures aside, take a look at the development in eastern central Europe, and compare their technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture I note that the break between the two cultures coincides with a climatic cataclysm. Climate change due to major volcanic eruptions is the main cause for regress in the history of the Old World, and especially Europe. Civilization experienced repeated major setbacks when climate refugees upset those regions suffering less, raiding and migrating into better climate. All of the constituent peoples of the Holy Country except for the Ingareens are Theyalans, which is another word for Orlanthi. The Esrolians are a lot more Orlanthi than the Caladralanders, and weren't under any trouble to go on as usual when ruled by Hendriki adventurers in the Adjustment era following the Dragonkill rather than by a grandmothers' council. Belintar stressed their elemental differences in order to further his magical whole, but the emigrants to Dragon Pass from Esrolia or Heortland became undistinguishable, whether as free clans and tribes in Sartar or enslaved by the Grazeland Pony Riders as Vendref. If you look at the Foreigner Laws of Aventus (one of the Larnsti kings of Heortland just after the Gbaji Wars), you will find that the Hendriki lorded over a population of Quivini, Esrolian, Pelaskites and Esvulari clans in Heortland. Apart from the Esvulari whose endogamous caste system kept them apart (I guess except for thrall-taking), those groups were more or less integrated into the Heortland that sent the new Quivini settlers into Dragon Pass 800 years later. Likewise, there are numerous groups in Esrolia who are not ruled by grandmothers, like e.g. a qood quarter of the Theyalan population of Nochet (and all of the non-Theyalans). Your idea of a republic appears rather strange to me if your only example are the odd Romans. Germanic republics like Iceland, Frisia, Ditmarsia are pretty undistinguishable from Scottish clan. A lot. The Vingkotling culture was a lot more magical, demigods were its leaders. The Heortlings were their descendants, with quite watered down divine blood among their leaders. They saw the Dawn as part of the Theyalan culture. They assimilated influences from all the other cultures around them, including Praxian, troll, dwarf and Malkioni ones. Their magic re-created the magic of the Vingkotlings, but accessed it differently. The Bright Empire brought civil war to the Orlanthi, with Heortlings and non-Heortlings actively supporting Nysalor and Heortlings and non-Heortlings actively opposing Nysalor. Both sides allied with non-Orlanthi and non-humans. The Nysaloran new magic suppressed the old Orlanthi magic (Lokamayadon), but a new approach to Orlanth's magic re-gained access to the magic. Initiation rites changed, once again. The republic of Rome is a farmers republic very much like Iceland or Frisia. Only the wealthy land owners gain anything like participation in the government. The leaders are dual elective kings in all but name and term of office. The stirrup was adopted within history. The chariot was abandoned as military unit. Magical artillery of various forms has conquered the battlefields, in direct confrontation with the heroes facing entire brigades with just their chosen companions at their side, shrugging off massive magic. Harrek and Jar-eel are the over-the-top variant of this. Access to the great magics becomes more difficult as the ages pass and the cataclysmic conflicts block routes to older techniques. And yes, there are forces that successfully suppress new knowledge, magic and technology - the Mostali, Zzabur, rabid extremist theist Taliban like Renvald or Alakoring. Let's leave the Orlanthi for a while and take a look at Illumination in Peloria. The Red Goddess has embraced illumination and imposes its mystical reality with the Glowline, pretty much like the Nysalorean missionaries of the Bright Empire did without atrocious temples (although as atrocious methods on the far borders). Other illuminating movements were and are heavily persecuted, especially when they gain a temporary foothold like e.g. the Spolite Empire or the White Moon Movement. So, homeostasis? No, compensation of decline through active effort. Look what happened when Prince Saronil used dwarven technology to advance Orlanth temple architecture. Dwarves - probably the very same ones who taught him the technology - had his granddaughter abducted and the Prince (who had already become paranoid when his favorite and first son was betrayed in Nochet) slain on hot pursuit. Yes, the Mostali have an agenda of stasis. Even regress, to a world of featureless plains and strict separation of features and possibly inhabitants. The Aldryami reforestation plans are pretty much the same. They do tolerate humans that obey strict limitations, like the inland Umathelans or the Errinoru Fiwan and pygmies, but they aim to an uniformity of forests that will smother any development, too.

The Onjorriad I fear this is just dropping the title and a very short abstract of a saga cycle, without much substance behind it (yet). "The Sad Lady" is another such case where we get title and abstract but little meat of the story. But then this means that I got to write up some of it to fit my own purposes, so why complain. It would help to get a better consensus on the nature of the On Jorri. Personally, I put some faith in their being placed basically just south of drowned Henjarl in the Flood Maps of Heortling Mythology. This might corroborate a rivalry with the Syliling bear worshippers, and Vingkot's enthronement challengy by the Grizzly whose slain body became the basis of Vingkot's royal seat.

Orlanthi society changed already prior to the EWF - the Council of Orlanthland ruled the Orlanthi lands liberated from the Bright Empire, and then from Arkat's Command. The urbanisation had already started when Aventus (King of the Hendriki, ruling over the area that is modern Heortland including Volsaxar) issued his Foreigner Laws. The EWF started comparatively late, and inherited the urban structures from the council of priests that ruled Orlanthland. The introduction of Great Living Heroes (like Renvald among the Old Day Traditionalists or Varankol of the Aramites who were allies or a subculture of the EWF) took place in this time, too - IIRC the position was created for ending Arkat's Command. The draconic orientation of the EWF failed. The urban society didn't quite, but cities of Dragon Pass didn't have the means to stop the combined military might of all of Peloria. A significant portion of the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass fled south. The devastation by the Dragons and the subsequent blockade of Dragon Pass In Kethaela, the Adjustment Wars in Esrolia focussed on taking over cities, and the cities in Heortland kept growing, too. The Vingkotlings basically had one kingdom, and a few peripheral tribes like the Harandings. The Lhankor Mhytes were alchemy users already at the Dawn. (Alchemy is the Orlanthi term for acceptable sorcery.) The followers of Arkat were sorcery users, too, but fell afoul of some ultra-conservative king. The temples were accumulations of documents already before contact with the God Learners. Lhankor Mhy was the scribe who put down the contract of Nochet. Isn't this mostly true for the other cultures of Glorantha as well? Dara Happa had metropolises before the Flood, and rice paddies, and it still has. The recent introduction of maize has changed the Orlanthi of Tarsh and the provinces more than the river valleys of Dara Happa. Both Seshnela and Dragon Pass experienced a deportation. The Rokari sect is somewhat different from previous Hrestolism or Makanism. The pendulum has swung towards and away from Henotheism several times, so the current high ground of Theoblanc might find a severe change ahead when the Waertagi come. The Enerali of Safelster had been converted to the Theyalan rites in the Dawn Age. They then adopted Arkat's ways, which included some Malkionism, then were conquered by the Seshnegi crusaders, until Halwal re-awakened the remnants of their Arkati inheritance and led them against the Makanists of Old Seshnela. They remained free of Rokarism until Ulianus III managed to conquer most of Safelster (not the oulying hill barbarians, though), but that lasted for only two generations, until the current king of Seshnela started another campaign. So yes, Ralios showed more change. The Lunar Empire is a great leap in Peloria, although the debate remains into which direction. They brought back goddesses from before Brighteye's usurpation in the early Golden Age. They also brought back Natha in even bigger style than under the lion shahs or Daxdarius, and they repeat the strategy of the Artmali Moon empire. That's an ongoing feature since before the Dawn - bringing up new hero cults is traditional among the Orlanthi, both in the closer sense and in the wider, Theyalan sense. Harmast was adopted as a pauper, and lived as a cottar before going onto the LBQ. Individual freedom has been a virtue among the Hendriki since before the creation of that tribe from survivors of the Garanvuli, and has been anathema for the Grandmothers of Esrolia for even longer. The question is how universal this curse of illiteracy will be. Could it be a parallel to the Syndics' Ban, with the bearded one rather than the speaking one as the target of this theomachy. The memory removal may be a similar, possibly localized effect. With each cataclysm, the world gets somewhat more frayed, however optimistic the intermediate new creativity may set out, whether Sartar's road building, the Lunar inclusivity, or Belintar's Golden Age pastiche in Kethaela. Sure - Mastakos is the god of motion and locomotion, not the changer. That portion of Larnste resides elsewhere, among the Hendriki, and the Sartar Dynasty. The Dara Happans were conquered over and over again - by the horse nomads, by the Orlanthi, almost by the Spolites, through marriage by the Lion Shahs, through military suppression by the Bull Shahs, through assassination and co-regency by the Lunars, through bad-ass failed mysticism by Sheng, and once again by Carmanians, this time under Lunar management. The organisation of the Tripolis or the rice farmers hasn't changed a lot. The Lunar way offers a differen mob outlet than e.g. the Want Mores or illumination sects of the Imperial Age. The Lunars have inserted themselves in numerous levels in the Dara Happan establishment, like the Bull Shahs and their followers before, like the That's a line I used to follow in my early explorations of the Aeolians, but it turned out that Greg's idea for them was somewhat different. In the meantime, there have been quite a few explorations of those guys, and their presentation within the de-catholicized version of the Malkioni philosophy works fine for me. Take a look at Ralios rather than the Amish of Dragon Pass following that Praxian mystic. The Chariot of Lightning sect is an interesting phenomenon. Also look at the cult of Invisible Orlanth in Carmania - it will be interesting how they will be able to deal with the bull folk out of Charg. The forest Orlanthi of Umathela will show how they can aid the aldryami of Enkloso resisting the leveling of their environment by the Mostali, and the Fronelan Orlanthi cannot remain on the sidelines of the conflict between Loskalm and the Kingdom of War. The Jonating kingdom with its Malkioni veneer and its bear Orlanthi suprematists may not exacly embody your ideal of individual freedom, but they are one of the biggest Orlanthi polities, and they get to throw their weight behind one or the other corrupted conquerors. The poor, devastated inhabitants of the Windstop and their Sairdite allies are hopelessly afloat in the turmoils of the Hero Wars. This is all of the Orlanthi Gods War experience, and all the change it brought to them, from the divine band of Thunderbrothers via the Vingkotling/Dureving demigod struggle, and the Heortlings picking up from the scattered and shattered shards of the universe while Orlanth designed the compromise, adopting all manner of outsiders into their ranks. Argrath's counter-movement to Red Moon inclusion is at least as inclusive, as devastating in the choice of his allies. The destruction of Harrek, awakening the giants and the dragons - this goes as deep down to the roots of the universe as Teelo Estara and her mothers did. If anything comes out of the shattered and reformed remains of his people, it will be as different from Sartar's tribes as the Heortling survivors were from the Vingkotling conquerors and defenders. So, yes, I see lots of different outcomes of the various corners of the Orlanthi, whether in Maniria/Peloria, in Fronela, in Ralios, or in Umathela. I don't expect a single Orlanthi culture to emerge from the Hero Wars.

Not quite - most sacrificial kings face the prospect of ending up being sent to the gods equanimously, and get on with using the special power they have been endowed with by accepting this limited time-span and probably some portion of the worship of their tribe wisely and ferociously. While not quite a full-fledged hero(quester) like Hofstaring, a sacrificial king will out-magic any standard king.

What to do as a Doraddi character? Pretty much the same stuff as the Orlanthi basic clan stuff, really - internal and external conflicts, raids, chaos threats, big hunts, and fighting or abetting abominations of bad civilzations like Exigers, Kresh, Artmali, Embyli, Mountain Trolls, or Mostali. The Doraddi meeting contest is probably more fun to play than the Orlanthi greeting. My thoughts on reading the Doraddi section: rather few. Reed huts, reed skirts, no grass – an old complaint of mine. These reeds apparently are limited to wet sites, and don’t enter the plains, but this will make them an unobtainable resource for hunting camps following a herd. It is a bit unfortunate that the sidebar text for the Kresh matriarch on p.25 repeats the Kresh description text on p.22 verbatim.

There are various types of kingship. They have a hereditary type, the Vingkotling kingship, applicable on the kingdom or tribal federation level. It still may have an elective component when there are several candidates, IMO one of the reasons is that direct descendants of a great, deified founder can access his blessings through ancestor worship. Tribal kings and clan chiefs are elected by the respective moots for an indetermined term of office - sometimes to their death, at other times until their electorate removes them from office. This form of kingship can apply to kingdoms or tribal confederations, too. Another form of Orlanthi kingship are the sacred kings, who undergo sacrificial death after a fixed term of office, or who have to overcome a challenger or challenge to avoid that fate for another term of office. The Tarshite Illaro dynasty started as such.

I had mainly nitpicks about the Praxian clothing (and how the image doesn't reflect much of the text...) I don't really like that image, it is probably the weakest of the Laubenstein ones. Praxians should be portrayed in the saddle - something the Sable Queen probably can't do in that outfit. Not even if she wears pants beneath that dress. The High Llama tank might be "wearing leather", but then some more, and still some more. Hardly the second-least dressed tribe of the plains Herd-Men sidebar (p.27): the old canon. They look exactly like humans, and I would guess that like the Praxian tribesmen, they look like variations of the Wareran race (presumably even the pygmy tribes). Still, we have tribal skin- and body-types for the other tribes, so what about their tone of skin, physique, and manes? (And those of the other Praxians of the minor tribes?) Praxian slaves – there is a form of oppression left unmentioned here – slaves are expected to walk rather than ride. Male slaves won’t do much of herding, either – they will be put to muscular chores in the camps, maybe some crafting. They’ll be stripped of tribal garment (in case they wore much), too. Clan queens – so they are a thing in non-Sable Beast Riders, too? Once more, queen is used as the title for the head earth priestess, I guess.

But clearly not the only correct one, if you look at Harmast's acquisition of the Kodigvari tribal markings that originally were Berenethtelli ones - that's a case of a mutating tattoo, without any inkmaster involved.

Hsunchen marriage types One thing I had nodded through even on the most recent re-read was the remark that Uncolings (unlike other Hsunchen types) have several wives. How much does Hsunchen culture reflect the social structures of their totemic beasts? A partnership for life is rather the exception than the rule in the animal kingdom. This is especially difficult when the totemic beasts are solitary by nature, with the typical family group being the mother and the cubs in case of bears, whereas the human hunter-gatherer culture has the mother and her brothers – a multi-generation version of mother and cubs. The text implies that there is marriage rather than free-for-all coupling at tribal festivals and the sibling group taking care of child-raising. Matings (or births) in animal shape, with their animal kin, aren’t mentioned either, although I am fairly sure that such events occur. (And this is not just re-enacting Wendi Pini’s wolf riders in the shape of the Telmori, with their first chief as ancestor of both the riders and the wolves…) Hsunchen polities appear to have been a thing in Godtime Ralios, and their temple cities were present and active in the Dawn Age, too. I wonder that the Pujaleg empire of Laskal doesn’t get mentioned in the intro, or the Basmoli/Pendali kingdom. Some Hsunchen polities survived, but ceased to be Hsunchen in nature. I’d name Safelster as the Enerali empire, the Kralori dragon empire, and the bear kingdom of Jonatela. Northern Fronela, these days. At the Dawn, everything except a few Malkioni territories was Hsunchen or civilized Hsunchen (Enjoralini - civilized Tawari bull people). Civilized Hsunchen were trending in the Gray Age and at the Dawn - Pendali lion folk in Seshnela (former Basmoli), Enerali in Ralios (former Galanini), and the Enjoralini. The Jonating bear folk may be another such group, although the name Jonating is derived from a late Second Age hero rather than a Dawn Age one. In case of the Telmori, that would be built on the old cliche based on an old observation of an artificially large wolf pack in captivity. The Sofali have been Hsunchen since RQ3 times. As a rule, yes, they do. There isn't much else in terms of large prey in Porent. Their relation to the reindeer herds isn't much different from that of the Praxians. Years ago we discussed the sacred bear hunt that most bear worshippers practice, and the consensus was that it had to be a Rathori rite, too. Greater spirits have as much pluripresence as ordinary or greater gods. It took a huge collective ritual for Harrek to be able to slay and skin the White Bear God in its entirety. Gloranthan taxonomy is sometimes quite similar to ours, but there are differences, too. Horses for instance are related to birds and to feathered dinos, all of which are sky creatures, while most ungulants and carnivora are mammals (descendants of Mother Mammal). Carnivores are descendants of Fralar, the primal carnivore, ancestor of lions, tigers, tomcats, alynxes (not a Hsunchen type beast, but still Fralar descendants), wolves, dogs (no extant Hsunchen connection), bears, Andrewsarchii (even though they were hoofed animals rather than carnivora), badgers, otters, other weasels, mongooses, hyenas, sabretooths, etc. Not sure about orcas, dolphins, whales, seals, or other almost fully aquatic beasts - Fralar may not have been in their ancestry. (And I am aware that seals are carnivora, and that otters are a borderline case.)

I suppose that thrall ownership is similar to cow ownership - some specimen belong to the raider, the rest belongs to the clan. The paragraph has the possessive form of owner in the singular at the first mention of ownership, but talks about the clan which owns the mother further down. Personal property is the exception in Orlanthi society - clans are the main holders of ownership, even for stuff we might regard as personal property like clothing. There still is some form of hereditary possession of land, housing, heirlooms tied to households, and clan members who gain riches on prolonged sabbatical (e.g. as follower of a tribal or even kingdom king) are expected to gift some of them to their clan upon their return, but not all of them. Urban Orlanthi have a much more personal concept of property, although possession of e.g. housing still relies on their community (whether tribe, guild or cult). My observations: Elasa script, a second vocabulary – is this in any way similar to kennings used in the staved oral tradition? (And yes, this is a question I could have asked when this text first appeared in Storm Tribe.) Orlanthi have three rather than two main mythical cycles – the earth myths of creation ad the making of culture, the Gods War with Storm taking its place in the world and holding it, and the Lightbringers Quest/I Fought We Won – how to end the Great Darkess. History – “The Orlanthi peoples all view the war agaist Gbaji as a war against Chaos.” Does this mean that Lokamayadon’s folk viewed the war against Arkat as a war against Chaos? It was Arkat who cursed Dorastor as a Chaos land. Second Age Rex cult, Storm temples in cities: did this take over post-1042 Dragon Pass and Kethaela? Urban Rex temples sound like something useful for the Adjusted Lands. Whitewall predates the Rex cult (or at least predates Alakoring). Orlanthi tattoos – are these mundane or magical in origin (i.e. are there tattoo artists in Orlathi society (presumably in the cults) operating with sacred inks, or are these markings divine gifts without the need for human intercession? Do the initiation marks retrace the divine markings received on the Other Side, but need human artists to retrace them in ink?

Janeera Vingkotsmother should be pre-Flood Age, if we have only one birth of Vingkot. Peter's theory requires a second birth of Vingkot - a typical way for a deity to establish a second (or later) presence. I think that the On Jorri were a Pelorian group of pastoralists and/or agriculturalists who had descended from the Spike, much like other groups in the region. While we are making name guessing games, the Loskalm province of Jorri - bordering on Oranor - is well known for its bulls. This may be an Enjoralini hold-over. It still could be a common ancestry for a Pelorian group, too - there were other bull groups claiming Tavar/Tawar as ancestor elsewhere in Peloria. The recently founded city of Alone might be named after Janeera, not for the birthplace, but for the adoption into the Sartar kingdom.

The problem with population in the far north are the trolls. They will stray into the coastal areas of the White Sea and further south, from either side fo the delta, and cause your population numbers to vary greatly. I don't know what exactly to make of the Hollri, and I expect to find uncharted outer World folk like Altinae or Hrimthurs in the western parts. Fishing will extend land use into sea hexes, which should be calculated into population densities IMO.

In case of an earth elemental, I wonder how quickly it can affect its environment - while able to affect that much of its element, how quickly can it do so, which means what can it do in a combat situation? In preparation for an ambush, the earth elemental can provide a deep pit. Summoned to the earth of the combat ground, it may be limited to smaller volumes within the shorter time of a foe moving across the combat area. Once grabbed, it might attempt to pull its victim further down.

Oh, that stretching effect is one of my pet theories - irrelevantly materialistic, of course. I think that entering the Outer World makes everything larger than life, quite often including the adventurer who necessarily has to take on a heroic stature to survive out there. Take the battle between the Luatha and the Vingkotlings during Orlanth's Lightbringers' Quest. There is nothing to indicate that the Vingkotlings were any less in stature than the Luathans they fought, yet those very same Luathans crewing a single ship turn out to be 5+ meter tall giants when preparing the Drowning of God Learner Seshnela. I think that the denizens of the Outer World have a choice whether to maintain that heroic/demigod stature when entering the Inner World and whether not. Prince Snodal and the Altinelan Damosel of the Veil who brought Siglat to Fronela both appear to have been of normal human stature, and so was Siglat himself. The Malkioni rarely exceed five foot height by much, except for their wizards (who often take to artificial height enhancers like tall hats and plateau soles). The Brithini would have the same size range, perhaps a bit less for lack of admixture of "eastern" (central Genertelan) humanity. I don't think that this has to do with any outer world proximity, though. Humans of my height (almost 2m) are rare in Glorantha, apart from the Men-and-a-half. I would expect the occasional tall guys among the Storm worshipers, and maybe some volcano worshipers too.

Moin HeirophantX, without wanting to tax your language skill when giving directions, there is a German language subforum here, however not very active. Recently we had a discussion about translation issues in German even on the regular Glorantha forum. That body of original RuneQuest material in German is rather slim. There are a few German language websites with RuneQuest or Glorantha material, like humakt.com by Robin Mitra and friends (the folk behind the translation of HeroQuest 2 into German) or my own glorantha.de where I try to fill the void of introductory material to the setting in German. Both are ongoing projects with only sporadic bursts of activity. There are a few RuneQuest 3 scenarios that exist exclusively in German, mostly in out of print publications. All these publications that I know of were produced by Deutsche RuneQuest Gesellschaft e.V., also known as Chaos Society, the people behind Deutscher RuneQuest-Con and Tentacles.Convention, who then moved on to The Kraken (still officially connected to that Verein) and to Eternal Convention. Schatten in den Hügeln is a campaign setting on the Stream just south of the Dragonewt Wilds with a couple of scenarios about the village of Ornsfurt: http://www.drosi.de/archont/buy/id649944448 There was another RuneQuest 3 scenario, Ort ohne Wiederkehr, also set in western Sartar. Both are well over 20 years old and quite out of print, but depending on legalities might be made available again as pdf. A few other RuneQuest scenarios were published in Free INT or Schattenklinge, the German language periodical of the Verein which was published in the nineties. I contributed two Gloranthan scenarios and one Viking scenario. When the German activists became the hosts for an ever more international crowd on their conventions, our publishing activities turned to the English language. There was no fan support for the German translation of Hero Wars and the Hero Wars Introduction to Glorantha book that was produced in cooperation with the French publisher of those rules. There is an upcoming German language collection of HeroQuest scenarios as support for the German translation of the (generic) rules, with two Gloranthan scenarios and various other settings. The RuneQuest 6 rules (still available under that name, elsewhere now Mythras) and the Bronze Age setting scenarios have been translated to German, but I don't know of any original German language publications for that system (yet). There certainly are entire books of unpublished fan-made RQ2 and RQ3 scenarios in German language from the eighties and nineties, some of these at least somewhat prepared for editorial work and publication. Many of these were overtaken by the developing canon, and quite often this frustration coupled with Real Life distractions removed those prospective authors out of the hobby. On the Cthulhu front, the situation is completely different. While the publishing history of Cthulhu in German is a bit complicated, there have been quite a few official releases of original German material. This isn't quite my speciality, though.

Without crunching the numbers, I would start with the desolations - North Pent, the Copper Sands and similar regions of the former Genert's Garden, the marsh lands surrounding the Auloring tribes in Maniria, and the mostali-caused wasteland dumps south of Nida and north of Greatway. There might be an explanation for the lack of such nowhere places - nobody is there to maintain them for the Compromise, so they ended up being folded away by the Compromise, possibly as Hidden Greens. After all, Glorantha is real where there are people maintaining their Sacred Time rites.

My point is that this would make the quester(s) change their clan. Probably not the desired outcome of the original post, which is why I suggested finding a quester from the clan requiring fixing, and become his "Batulco's Crew" (as per Oliver Dickinson's Griselda story "The Hero Bit"), the grey eminences doing the heavy lifting for the nominal hero. Orphaned bloodlines from broken clans: Petitioning for adoption into another clan is a likely outcome, but since Sartar's founding of the cities there is another option - enter a city and set up a trade. Quite likely they will join members of the bloodline who left the clan (through marriage or joining a guild) already there. The third option, gathering enough folk and founding a new clan on the orphaned tula, is a distant third. Entering a new clan as thralls would be an act of desperation, and an unlikely display of cluelessness. After 300 years, there ought to have been almost any marriage combination you can imagine, and a custom like that ought to be known, and easy to avoid. The last time something like this happened was the destruction of the Maboder clans and their enslavement by the settlers of Wulfsland. I suppose that a significant portion of the Jonstown trailer trash may have come from this, and others in Boldhome, wherever they had kin they could hope to find at least a modicum of support. Having a refugee background in my family, I think this is a process that might take a few years, but at least some members of the bloodline will have marketable abilities that enable a survival above destitution, be it in the city of the tribal confederation, Boldhome, or Nochet.