jajagappa

Yes, I see the RQG core book does have that. It's been corrected in RBoM to the Fertility Rune. Since one Rune uses the upper case X, and the other the lower case X, in the RQ font, I suspect a simple shift key typo.

Apparently it's the Fate of this thread to be Resurrected!

And per the text in 13th Age Glorantha, that was the image of the person who suggested the content during the Kickstarter.

And plenty of space in the Big Rubble too! It's even equipped with a temple to get you started. 😉

Snakepipe Hollow! 😉 In all likelihood, the Bush Range is the closest to this - an area depopulated in the aftermath of Lunar invasion. I think this is why the village of Renekot's Hope (Pegasus Plateau) is set in that area. Another area might be the Marcher County between Heortland and Prax. Generally, I think fertile lands will be occupied unless there's been a recent disaster (i.e. the Great Winter). Most likely you need to boot out others or get agreement to settle or overcome some hostile forces (e.g. Telmori wildlands, the border of Troll country in Dagori Inkarth, the Dwarf Run, the Spinosaurus Flats).

Perhaps not if the Holy Country is partly in the Gods World... (there is, I think, a good reason why the place has the word "holy" in the name).

It's certainly lowlands and quite warm. It's in the rainshield of the Caladraland mountains, though, so fairly dry. Perhaps not unlike the central valley of California.

Looks like if you take England/Wales and chop off East Anglia, Kent, North Wales, and anything north of Birmingham/Nottingham, you've got the Holy Country (with a large sea in the middle of it).

Of course Belintar is popular among the masses - he's brought peace, prosperity and blessings, and as a god he is present in their rituals. As Jeff noted "Sometimes Belintar shows up in your city, with demigods and spirits in his entourage. He plants a garden or stamps his foot and a spring appears or satisfies a dozen priestesses in the fertility rites or whatever miracle is needed" I'm sure some portion of the magical worship at the temples goes to Belintar, who probably has a shrine in each of them. But, I doubt that there is any formal cult or that anyone initiates to Belintar. Why go to the City of Wonder when Belintar may just come to you! But, yes, I'm sure there were events (such as celebrating Belintar's return) when many were invited to pass over the Magic Roads to come to the city and experience the wonders there. And, now, with Belintar and the City of Wonders gone, I'm sure everyone remembers those happy bygone days and fears what will come.

Here are Jeff's FB notes on population density for Dragon Pass & Holy Country. Sartar So to get a feel for population density, a rough eyeball for Sartar (including the Dragonewt Wilds and the Far Place) is about 7200 square miles or 18,900 square kilometres. If we ignore the dwarves and any purely temporary groups, there are about 194,000 sentients living in Sartar, which gets about 27 people per square mile or about 10 people per square kilometre. That's about basically the norm for a low density agrarian society and about half the density of Classical Greece (see Zimmermann, Andreas; Hilpert, Johanna; and Wendt, Karl Peter (2009) "Estimations of Population Density for Selected Periods Between the Neolithic and AD 1800," Human Biology: Vol. 81: Iss. 2-3, Article 13. Available at: http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/ humbiol/vol81/iss2/13). Which seems about right given how urbanised Sartar is (Boldhome, Alda-Chur, Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Swenstown, and Alone, plus numerous smaller towns). Q: Since that's including relatively sparsely populated but fairly large areas, I presume that Sartar's core areas are closer to classical Greece in density, which feels subjectively right- mountainous, but plenty of fertile ground rather than sea. A: yes, absolutely right Lunar Tarsh Lunar Tarsh, which covers a roughly comparable area, has a population of roughly 18 people per square kilometre, or 50 per square mile. That's roughly high medieval France or actually about the same as Classical Greece. So basically, what you can get from this is that Sartar has a bunch of agrarian valleys that might have a population density of 18 per square kilometre or almost 50 per square mile. Or more. But then you also get a lot of empty - the Quivin Mountains, the Thunder Hills, the Forloss Hills, the Yellow Hills, and other woodlands. Remember, there are roughly two or three hides per square kilometre. So an average clan occupies one WBRM hex, that means there are about 130 hides of cultivated land, and another 70 hides in herds and livestock, per cultivated hex. Q: Outside the megalopoli, does Esrolia share similar density with Lunar Tarsh/Classical Greece? A: nope. Significantly higher. I'll post numbers later. So Sartar has a population density of about 10 people per square km, and Lunar Tarsh about 18 people per square km. Esrolia Esrolia is WAY more densely settled. North Esrolia has only about 3000 km2 (or less than half the area of Sartar), but has 500,000 people. That's 166 people per square km. If we remove Nochet from the mix, it is still about 130 people per square km. That's Nile Valley density. That's the Low Countries in the Renaissance. So everywhere you go in North Esrolia, there will be settlement and intensive agriculture. There's no "wild land". if you travel in Esrolia, every 4 or 5 kilometres has another village, surrounded by farms. If we think of each village having about 16 km2 agricultural land, that means we have clusters of about 2000 people, with lots of little farmhouses, but most of the folk living in a large village, with its Ernalda major temple (with shrines to the other Earth goddesses) and minor temple to Barntar or Orlanth Thunderous and shrine to Argan Argar. And then 4 km away is another one. And another 4 km and another one. Heortland Heortland, in contrast is about 38 people per km2, which gets us in the vicinity of Roman Italy. It is much more settled than Sartar, but far less than Esrolia. It means that Heortland under Belintar has become a settled land, with lots of village, but spaced a little further apart than Esrolia, and more on the population scale of the Sartarite clans (around 1300 on average). But most of the plateau is now agricultural land. in Heortland, there's been quite a lot of deforestation on the Heortland Plateau. Since the Dragonkill War, the population of Heortland has probably more than doubled since its Second Age height.

Good imagery in Evangeline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogion too, particularly the descent into the Underworld.

Btw, there's another written up in 13th Age Glorantha p.177: The Square Round Monastery. Edit: see already posted in thread!

Someone is going to need to take over! Might be a bit of Game of Thrones for awhile though.

And leaves Heortland in complete chaos (not to mention ravaged by both Wolf Pirates and Chaos). Time to head to Refuge!

Except when not 🙂 since Lodril was first with Asrelia (with whom he fathered Maran Gor, and probably Caladra & Aurelion), and subsequently is husband-consort to at least two of the Grain Goddesses (Oria in Peloria, and Esrola in Esrolia) and likely more/most, and is husband to Oslira. Lodril is also well known for his lust.

More interesting comments from Jeff, this time re: Belintar A few notes on Belintar that folk might find interesting: Belintar was a wise and beneficent being, with no grudge against the innocent, and a keen mind in marshalling his resources. In the councils of Belintar, one of the seats was filled by a troll, sometimes a Mistress Race troll, sometimes a dark troll. Other seats were filled by the Orlanthi, the Ernaldans, Caladra & Aurelion, the Triolini, and the Godless. GOVERNMENT Belintar made little material demands on the peoples around the Choralinthor Bay, only that: 1. They send their tribute like everyone else. This tribute is both material and magical. 2. They obey his trade laws. Local rulers must guarantee the safety of passing caravans against robbers and brigandage, they must maintain roads and bridges in exchange for tolls and taxes on transit trade. 3. Send the requisite troops to his army. The God-King maintained a small but flexible professional army and a large navy. Belintar largely let the locals rule themselves - and gave them a little boost in resources and organization. In the end, that's all the Sixths are (and I am rapidly reconsidering use of terminology like "governor"). In each Sixth, Belintar recognized the local ruler and gave them protection and additional resources. If this looks a lot like what Sartar established in Dragon Pass, that's because Sartar based a lot of his policies on that of Belintar. In fact, the traditional Holy Country take on Sartar is that he was the agent of Belintar who was sent to civilize Dragon Pass, but then declared independence with his own apotheosis. THE MASTERS OF LUCK AND DEATH Belintar is a living god in the material world. He has a divine self that has existed since 1318, and is recognized by all the gods of the Holy Country. He also has a mortal self, that lives, ages, and dies. The Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death is held to select the new incarnation of Belintar. This is a magical contest, that sometimes has military dimensions, sometimes has gods and monsters participate and more. The winner of this contest IS Belintar but also themself. He or she gains access to Belintar's soul, and adds their experiences, personality, and knowledge. This is not possession - more like an incredibly powerful Allied Spirit or Fetch. Upon death they become Belintar in the God World, each incarnation adding to the god. Now if this looks familiar - it is. You should immediately think of two other rulers that more or less operated this way: the Only Old One and the Red Emperor. This system worked fantastically for over a century, but I think the first creaks showed up with Sartar's mission to Dragon Pass. Belintar violated his own trade laws in the 1520s when he allowed (or even ordered) the Kitori to seize the trade route between Dragon Pass and Karse. Nonetheless, Belintar was still able to support Dormal in the Opening - which might really be the last hurrah of the God-King. Sure he was still powerful enough to easily route the Red Emperor at the Building Wall Battle - and I think the Red Emperor was completely outclassed there - but Belintar had become stagnant, even senile, and did. not recognize how much the world had changed. Jar-eel ambushed Belintar as he performed rites in the Otherworld. Lunar spies had mapped out parts of his route and Jar-eel, a heroquester on par with the original incarnation of Belintar, dissected the God-King and hid his parts in the Lunar Otherworld. When the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death was held in 1616, there was no Belintar to join with. Plus additional comments: The folk that left in the greatest number were the traditionalist Hendreiki (including the Elmal cult) who did not want to accept Belintar's magical changes to the land or their traditions and cult practices. The irony is that those who left ended up changing far more radically than those who stayed behind - but that of course is familiar with many such emigrations. Belintar could have the gods of the Holy Country manifest in the mundane world - and so the Holy Country was a place that outsiders thought was entirely on the Hero Plane. But Belintar was the intercessor between the worlds - which was frightening and dangerous (and the Orlanthi had a very bad experience doing just that same thing a few centuries before). As for the Only Old One, when Belintar slew him, he was no longer able to manifest in this world. However, he did not bother, or attempt, to destroy the children of Argan Argar, the dark trolls of the Shadowlands. And dark trolls made little political activity at all except to send their tribute to Belintar like everyone else, obey his trade laws, and to send the requisite troops to his army. Belintar is gone with the commencement of the Hero Wars. Jar-eel has changed things and they will not return. Period. And by 1621, the unity of the Holy Country is shattered. Completely. He's not coming back, any more than the Council of Friends can be restored. Maybe there might be something new that resembles the Holy Country (in fact I am pretty sure of that), but Belintar and his magic is gone. It is important to keep in mind that from 1318 to 1616, the Holy Country maintained an astonishing amount of internal peace. The largest internal conflict involved the Volsaxi about a generation after Belintar became a god - which was basically the Orlanthi being Orlanthi. The Volsaxi kings quarrelled with the Durengard kings about who ruled Heortland. By 1460, that conflict had largely petered out. But after 1616, war, disorder, and invasion came to the Holy Country. The unity is gone, and things won't go back to how they were. The Golden Age is over and the Lesser Darkness is upon us. So if you imagine how this system would have worked in its prime - let's say around 1550, when Tarkalor was here. Belintar resides in the City of Wonders. This is a marvellous magical place, where the gods themselves wander freely. Beings no longer present or even possible in the mundane world can be found here. Even with the Closing, there are guests from far off lands, Teshnite and Seshnegi nobles, Lunars and others. Belintar speaks with the gods and spirits, and works to keep the divine world and the material world in harmony. It is important to think of Belintar as a priest or a living god, rather than as an administrator or politician. Belintar doesn't have politics. He does what is necessary to keep the mundane world in harmony with the divine - while also keeping the divine world from tearing apart the mundane world. He says something - well, you just follow it. Belintar just *knows* things - secrets, mysteries, impossible stuff. And he is friendly with all the gods of the Holy Country - Orlanth, Ernalda, Caladra&Aurelion, Choralinthor, the Lightbringers, you name it (yes he has a few enemies too, but they are important to be enemies of). So if the Queen of Esrolia has a problem, she just takes the Rainbow Bridge over to the City of Wonders, and asks Belintar what to do. He's the Great and Terrible Oz! He's got councils, with a mistress race troll, with Wind Lords, Earth Priestesses, Twin Priests, and zzaburi. And more. Sometimes Belintar shows up in your city, with demigods and spirits in his entourage. He plants a garden or stamps his foot and a spring appears or satisfies a dozen priestesses in the fertility rites or whatever miracle is needed and then returns to the City of Wonders. He admits guests, speaks with them, and then disappears again, leaving you puzzled about what he exactly meant by that and how did he know it? There is nothing "ordinary" about him at all. But at some point, even Belintar is no longer balanced. The Tournament is supposed to produce an incarnation strong enough to not be overwhelmed by Belintar - but that started to break down after the Opening. That's a general theme in Greg's stories - nothing made in Time lasts forever. Q: No brigandage and willing payment of tolls are both significant additions to Orlanthi ways. Did Sartar actually impose either? A: yep - at least on Sartar's roads. Part of the deal with the Prince. And tribes that broke their oath got slapped hard. Q: Are the cities the toll stations? If not, where? A: The royal roads belong to the Prince and travelers and their property are under the protection of the Prince while they are on the road. Tolls on goods moving along the road are collected at various points, this is largest source of revenue for the Prince. For much of Sartar’s history, such revenues made the Prince richer than most Lunar satraps. At the entrance to each city and a few other toll stations (such as at Roadend and Dangerford), scribes and their guards assess a toll on the caravan. These tolls are sizeable (typically 2% to 5% of the value of the goods at each station) but ensures that the caravan can travel along the road without interference from the local tribes. A caravan traveling from Furthest to Karse might add another 50% to its costs through tolls, but can expect to still make huge profits; the tolls are the price of safety, security, and speed. Few experienced merchants complain much as long as the tolls are kept to these “reasonable” rates. If the caravan tries to avoid the toll and bypasses the road, then the local tribes can impose whatever “toll” they desire (often tribal raiders simply take the caravan goods and ransom the merchant). In addition, there are tolls on ferry crossings, bridge crossings, and market taxes. This system was maintained with varying success during the Lunar Occupation. Q: What was the Lunars issue with Belintar? Just territorial aggression that he resisted? A: He was a problem on every level. For most Lunar leaders, the Holy Country was a matter of growing concern since 1500 or so. The Heartlands were shipping tons of silver every year to the merchants of the Holy Country, and getting spices, herbs, wine, textiles, etc. in return. The Sartarites were getting a big cut of that silver, making them a growing threat to the Lunar Provinces. But the Holy Country was getting the rest of it. Magically, the Holy Country was a threat - it was a Proximate Realm, like the Silver Shadow or Glamour. Its presence blocked the expansion of the Glowline and stopped the rise of the Red Moon. Ideologically, it was a problem. The Lunar Empire already has a God-King who sits atop the Axis Mundi and communicates between the divine and mundane worlds. Belintar did the same - and very successfully. Given the Red Emperor's universal claims, the presence of Belintar was intolerable. Q: on the state of the City of Wonders A: And it should be observed that after Harrek the Berserk sacked and pillaged the City of Wonders with King Broyan's aid, the city sank and disappeared from the world. It is no more. Like at Atlantis, it has disappeared from view. So not only is there no Belintar, but there is no City of Wonders either. Q: Why the hostility between the Volsaxi and the 'Governors' (or whatever the title is - Prince sounds likely to me)? A: Whitewall is the traditional cult and assembly center of the Hendriki. Durengard is the cult and assembly center of Heortland. The Volsaxi refuse to be tributaries of Heortland (although I am pretty sure they paid their tribute to Belintar after their restoration). So if you wanted to find some way to restart the Masters of Luck and Death - I'd suggest the following steps: 1. Get back all the parts of Belintar that Jar-eel dissected and scattered with guardians. They are in Lunar Hells, on the Red Moon, with Yara Aranis, and in a necklace around her neck. 2. Lift the City of Wonders from the bottom of the bay and rebuild its wonders. 3. Redo the original deeds of Belintar, more or less, and gain the submission of ALL the rulers of the Sixths. And do it fast, because Harrek has a good claim to be the Ruler of the Seas, and by 1628 Argrath is one of the rulers. Not to mention Queen Samastina, who is no nostalgist. Similarly, want to resurrect the Only Old One? Find all his parts wherever Belintar hid them. Rebuild his Palace of Black Glass. And get all the tar out of his stairway to the Underworld. All of it. Q: Wouldn't this also incorporate the dismemberment of Belintar into the Belintar myth, forcing future Masters of Luck and Death to dismember and remember themselves in order to complete the ceremony? A: or worse, it might mean you are the restarted Belintar. And starting from scratch Q: Funny thing is that Greg once theorized it was possible Belintar was from the future or far past. A: future, no. But there are hints that he might have been originally from the Second Age. Or just elsewhere. But nobody knows where he came from. And that's important. - some mysteries shouldn't be answered!

Fear and Loathing in Dragon Pass? 😉

I think two aspects here: one, it was a new mechanic so not surprising that it required discussion; and two, it was occurring in downtime so not surprising that it was less 'mystical'. The overall mechanic is not fundamentally different from Rune points, so I don't think that will be a barrier to play. And as players become used to the idea of heroquesting on the Other Side, and what a heroquest means to their players, I think this will all smooth out. Does it though? Is not the heroic a role where you lead people? And just like being a Rune Lord or Priest, or a shaman, there is a cost in terms of service in taking on that role. I think this is actually a very important piece in order to keep in from becoming an exercise in accumulating many rewards with no cost to the hero. And if the character does not want to be a hero, then they've got an interesting one-time ability and can return to normal life. But, I think overall we need to wait and see it when fully presented. We're getting glimpses of the mechanic and capabilities, but do not yet have the whole.

Autocorrected Harrek? I'm sure he'd appreciate that nickname! 😉 Will you gift your followers with your deeds or magic? Think that's up to the PC to decide, but if they don't... well, fans are fickle.

Likely either. In the White Bull campaign that was shown, the Humakti was creating a small shrine for himself in the Boldhome Humakt temple but I think others were planning to create little images/shrines in the White Bull shrine they maintain in Pavis. But no mechanism for how that would work yet - my guess is that if you do something collectively, then you only get a part of the worship funneled to you. Yes, that clearly happened with Kallyr against Enkala. I think these function like Rune spells so the roll is against the Rune that the power is associated with. I'm sure you only have one Hero Point pool. If you create multiple shrines with different groups worshiping your different deeds then you're receiving the worship and replenishing your Hero points. How you subsequently use those will vary. Think of yourself as a deity with one or two primary Runes. Your powers might be largely based on the Water Rune (Swim Fast, Erode Stone) or might be based on two Runes such as Water and Movement. Worship by the two communities may focus on the specific deed, but that is simply because that is what they are aware of. They may learn subsequently as they call upon you for aid that you in fact have the additional power (i.e. they succeeded in their Cult Lore roll!).

Yes, it looks they are in for it now! 🙂 Big session, Big Events! And surely no one could have escaped...

And while these spell-like abilities may be similar/same as cult Rune spells, they are outside of any specific cult - they are related to your heroquest. The challenge is finding a place where folk can come and worship your deeds (or possibly you), and of course getting folk to actually come and worship (presumably with some expectation of benefit). ---NOTE: spoilers below---highlight text to see. For example, Gina Gravedancer gained the Harmonize spell, tied to her Harmony rune. Kulbrast gained a Trickster spell, Group Laughter. A couple of the characters actually wounded Jar-eel and gained the spell Cancel Glowspot (very useful if going into the Lunar Empire! or encountering the Crimson Bat...). And at least one character gained the spell Summon Specific Spirit (not Ancester, mind you, but ANY spirit from Hell - has to be named though). -----------------------------

In Gathering Thunder, the implication is that it allows her to reach the Dragon Isles in the Celestial River, presumably contributing to the Dragonrise. But if, as Jeff has suggested, the Dragonrise was not something Kallyr expected then that does not make sense. I'd probably connect it to Kallyr's relationship to the Pole Star. The Boat Planet is one of the ancient planets, therefore should be part of the Sky. Perhaps there is some Sky Lore prophecy that encompasses the Boat Planet, which Kallyr interprets to mean should must aid its resurrection. Another prophecy-type implication could be something along the lines of: "When the Boat Planet sails again upon the Celestial River, then shall the Heir of the Flame be revealed." Kallyr would of course interpret such to mean her. But this ties in as well to the Battle of Pennel Ford, as the return of the Boat Planet marks the return to the Holy Country of Harrek and Argrath.

"There was Another Way, but now you've only got One Way."

I don't see it out there anymore (had been at one point, but that may have been pre-Jonstown Compendium).