Darius West

I have to disagree. Chariot design changes remarkably over time. The materials change. The choice of weight changes. The number of horses change. Sometimes they are missile platforms, and sometimes they are shock weapons. Eventually suspension is developed. Systems of reins change. The wheels are separated from the axle (not the case in Ur chariots). The yokes change. The armoring of the sides varies a lot from culture to culture and over time. Then there are the scythed wheels etc. The variance between a chariot from Ur changes dramatically when compared to an Egyptian or Celtic chariot. There is clearly a lot of design change over time. While the technology of the chariot itself remains identifiable, virtually every element of the design is refined over time. As to no chages in driving them, the Romans are on record as lashing the reins around their bodies, which most earlier charioteers didn't do afaik.

For the past 40 years there has been a remarkable dearth of chariots in RQ. While I like the idea of chariots immensely, there is no mention of them in any of the histories or lore either, quite apart from what was written in RQ2 and RQ3. No mention of chariots in Wyrms footnotes or the various fanzines as part of how Orlanthi fight. No mention of chariots at the Battle of Grizzly Peak or during the Invasion of Sartar in 1602 or during Starbrow's Rebellion. There has been ample opportunity too. As such, as I don't like retconning, I have found a good work around I think.

That is easy. The thing holding Ralzakark back is his character. He simply doesn't want to do that. Exhibit A: The Monster Empire.

That is for gladiatorial combat a la ancient Roman sporting use of chariots, not bronze age military chariot deployment. I can't think of a single RQ scenario which featured a chariot or chariot warfare; not even as a novelty.

Well I could point out some salient points, such as the lack of chariot illustrations in White Bear Red Moon military units, but I won't. I happen to love the idea of making RQG more Bronze Age, and nothing says that more than chariots. When I first read about Volsaxi chariots, I immediately wrote a scenario involving the retrieval of such an ancient chariot, and a quest to drive it to the White Bull rebels in Prax for safe keeping. I would point out though that RQ2 and RQ3 and HQ had no chariot rules. They are purely from RQG, and I like them a lot. Retrofitting them into the lore however has been an issue. The way I get around this issue is that Argrath sees the utility of chariots among the Volsaxi forces and realizes their value for his Sartar Magical Union, and reintroduces what was a technology that largely died in ages prior, perhaps wiped out by the God Learners or the True Golden Horde. Rather than pretend chariots have always been there, I chose instead to link them to the Hero Wars as a reintroduction. This way we don't abandon the lore and history that went before, but instead celebrate the chariot rules as something exciting and new on the battlefield.

Then you should treat Greg and your work with more respect. These notes are actually quite detailed and provide plenty of useful info. When the time comes to start producing Hero Quests for RQG the Stafford Library will absolutely invaluable. Even a loose collection of notes are better than no notes.

Given that it is the best source material we have on a lot of lore, I think we should stop treating the Stafford Library so flippantly. It isn't as if Greg is around to do it better anymore, so we need to treat it as the obviously invaluable resource that these books so clearly are. That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them. It is lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users. I think that came out in a TORM article by Greg in the 1990s, or it was in one of the many Jonstown Compendium footnotes somewhere from back in the day. The Volsaxi tribe are one of the last peoples in Genertela to use chariots.

All the Elder Races are potentially forces to reckon with if they unite. I think the Mostali in particular are terrifying in their potential.

They are all in The Stafford Library, and if that isn't canon then it damn well should be. And yes, I think they should all be included as they are part of the lore. I take exception to the notion that these are old "HW" subcults, as I never played HW because it was a terrible system. My thoughts on the matter are quite public. That has to be incorrect, as the Volsaxi are a super rare Orlanthi chariot people, while Finovan is a rider/raider god who rides a horse rather than driving a chariot as far as the literature tells us. More importantly I can see broad appeal in a deity who is able to enhance a clan's ability to steal cattle, which is a major source of wealth. The notion that Finovan is so narrowly worshipped and in the wrong place (Chariot heavy Volsaxiland) doesn't seem very credible to me. Finovan is too broadly valuable to every Orlanthi clan to be as limited in adoption as you suggest. More importantly, many if not all Tribal and Clan rings will include a Thunder Brother seat. It is part of the lore, and every clan or tribe of any size will incorporate the cult of at least one Thunder Brother, and while most may choose Elmal or Vinga, not all will or should. Diversity and respect for the deeper Lore will in no way diminish Glorantha, but will instead make it stronger.

What about the cult of Finovan? He rides upon Rolling Thunder, a magnificent stolen horse. As the pre-eminent rustling and raiding deity, why doesn't he get a mention? Rustling cattle is very hard on foot. Elmal may raise the horses, but Finovan steals them and rides them. If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.

You raise an interesting point about what Mostali wear Erol. I imagine their ordinary clothes might be a bit like this... While Mostali lingerie might be a bit more like...

I am surprised no God Learners made the cut. Surely Gloranthan history's munchkins par excellence must have had some superheroes? I mean, they are all dead now, I assume, but still... If Errinoru almost makes the cut and he's dead...

According to what I've read Harvar was doing both.

Vingkotlings originate in Dragon Pass. They will pilgrimage to Kero Fin. The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet. That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere. The point being that my position is backed by references. There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur. I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

To quote from page 169: "Yelmalio: God of the Winter Sun, Preserver of the Light. When Yelm traveled to the Underworld, Yelmalio preserved the dim, cold light until he returned. He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time. He is now worshipped by some Orlanthi who have abandoned Elmal." Now ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlands. They may have headed north, but at their core they look to the Heortlands as the heartland of Orlanthi culture, because that is where the Orlanthi survivors of the Great Darkness came from and spread from. In later ages Orlanthi from the north will go on pilgrimage to Kero Fin and the Temple of Old Wind and learn how to be proper Orlanthi. Elmal should be treated as a separate deity, even if he is a similar deity. Elmal is a Thunder Brother and thus a distinct part of Orlanth's pantheon. Yelmalio clearly isn't. Elmal and Yelmalio are culturally distinct religious practices and will continue to be separate whether or not they worship the same deity. Ultimately it is the worshippers who will decide and they will do so based on politics, and that means most clans won't want the disloyal thane Yelmalio to walk among them. 👉We literally have a reference to Yelmalio stealing Elmal's fire powers one time.👈 This suggests to me that Elmal has retained his fire powers, which has long been part of my Elmal cult write-up. As far as I am concerned the matter is closed and I consider my position completely vindicated.

Well, first up, Elmal is listed as a Thunder Brother in the Stafford Library's "The Book of Heortling Mythology". The Thunder Brothers are all Orlanthi subcults. Yelmalio is not. I direct you to page 169 where the situation is laid out in the Yelmalio section. Frankly I think Greg Stafford's own words are good enough for me.

"Other" is a very broad category. Given their pike based fighting style I am also surprised that the Agimori don't include more Yelmalios, but then Yelmalio has a problem with fire, as he doesn't have any. As to Oakfed, it is primarily useful as a weapon, and it would be hard to justify the Agimori maintaining a large cult, even if they are resistant to flames and likely to Oakfed more effectively as a result.

I would like to see The Day of the Beast" campaign written for Pulp C'thulhu. I mean, Castles in Transylvania, Egyptian Adventures, fighting a Fu Manchu character in San Francisco etc... It is very pulpy stuff.

You'd think so, but the Agimori only seem to worship Lodril, their Hunter God, and Helpwoman. By the same token, you'd think that Praxians would have help from dogs in their herding, given that they venerate Brother Dog like the Balazarings, but they only have dogs as camp guards. Go figure...

Not so imo. Elmali have a very different set of myths about their god to those the Yelmalios have. How many sects in our world claim to follow the One True God, and yet how many schismatic iterations of that god are there? Aten, Ahura Mazda, Brahma, YHVH, El Elyon, Allah etc. etc. People can be very selective about what they believe and how they worship. They can also spin the so-called "Yelmalio Mythos" in a million different ways to tell the story they want to tell. I think the Elmal Mythos tells a very different story, about how a brow-beaten soldier god from the Solar Pantheon learned a different and freer way to live from the constrained life that had been forced upon him, and ultimately repaid his new more lenient lord with faithful service against chaos in the Greater Darkness.

That is equivocal, given that Belintar repeatedly incarnates into the winners of the Tournaments of Luck and Death. That seems more... "Ephraim Waite" than either heroic or superheroic, and not really godlike either. I suspect Pavis is more of a genuine deity, and he too seems to have gone from hero to God, albeit a small one.

What is your textual source for this claim ? Yes, but they are not part of Orlanthi society at this point, they are part of Solar society. So let's just ignore the civil war... I don't agree. In southern Sartar Monrogh founded Sun Country as a buffer state between the Holy Country/Heortlands and Sartar after he won the civil war. Other Orlanthi tribes have absolutely no reason to accept Yelmalio in place of their Elmal practices, and in fact they would and should reject them. Monrogh's vision of Yelmalio is the embodiment of the disloyal thane by Orlanthi standards. Monrogh's vision is one where Elmal betrays his oath of loyalty to Orlanth to become Yelmalio, becoming the Disloyal Thane. I doubt many Elmali want that smear to their honor, especially when it comes with the added sleaze of Lunar conspiracy and orchestration. Certainly no clan or tribe of Sartar wants disloyal thanes. That is assuming that clans will let Yelmalios on their Tula to attend their shrine of Elmal when in fact they won't.

Each clan has an "Eiritha" who has the head of their herd beast. These are the Herd Protectresses. Is it so hard to imagine an Eiritha with a human head? I imagine she will prominently smile to show her large flat grazing teeth.

Yelmalio isn't a friend or an associate. The best any tribe will tolerate is that they won't fight them if they meet them in a city. If they find them on their land, they had better have a damn good excuse as to why they are there. To suggest that the relationship is the same as that between Orlanth and Waha requires me to point out that strangers met in Prax are a threat, and unless they are met under some system of truce, the assumption is that they are up to no good. If Waha worshippers find Orlanthi in their lands, they fight them, capture them, and if they cannot get a ransom for them they enslave them. The Orlanthi regard the Waha worshippers in the same way. Again, there is a measure of truce observed at some market oases, but neutrality means the other party is neither a friend or an enemy, yet, but they are probably an enemy if their motives for being there are not clearly explained. Given that Orlanth killed Yelm, Yelmalio's relationship with Orlanth is never cordial and is one of ritual rivalry as demonstrated in both cult write-ups. There is little love lost between them. They will war over Ernalda's favor, not tolerate each other. The idea that this will help them co-exist when territory/land/earth is THE scarce resource is frankly absurd. Control of the land is what determines whose children thrive and whose starve, and whose culture and values thrives and whose starves. It is a literal matter of life and death. The notion of co-existence is dubious at best. Orlanthi will tolerate loyal Elmali among them, not rivals. ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlings from Before Time. Elmal has been part of high Orlanthi culture since Before Time. The idea that the Sairdites somehow changed over to Yelmalio worship just because they have some sort of hostile Solar influence is the opposite of how cultures react. They double down against hostile influences rather than accepting them. Any Elmali who joined Yelmalio would have been exiled from their clans.