Darius West

To clarify, I mean in RQ, not Disney. With caveats, given that they have a lot of differences, that's fair enough. Vis the nerfing of sorcery, I think that common spells (given that they rely on CHA) shouldn't affect Free INT. Apart from that, sorcery is a bit of an aside in RQ as you say. I suspect that there will be efforts made to properly place the Malkioni in Glorantha. They won't be like Conan the Barbarian sorcerers, who in many ways are more like Call of C'thulhu sorcerers.

Well, it is true that Orlanth stripped him of many things, including kinship relations, but I doubt that is the end of the story. I mean Gagarth rides around on a beaked horse with hellhounds, perhaps we should consider the possibility of adding Hippoi or one of the Griffin deities plus Narangros to the list? I also think that for someone called the Wild Hunter, Gagarth seems to lack much in the way of hunting abilities. I would add that many of the deities in question I listed aren't strong on kinship ties themselves, e.g. Lanbril, Black Fang and Trickster. I also think that potential ties to chaos, especially Malia, are likely, as the bad winds bring disease.

Except that tribe/clan ties follow you to the city, they just aren't quite as strong now you regularly mix with outsiders. People don't suddenly become atomized modern individualists just because they live in a city. Every Roman citizen knew their tribe and clan for example. Clans form street gangs, guilds, sport clubs etc. to protect their interests, and factionalize with other groups to protect their interests. This sort of urban tribal affiliation will be stronger in Sartar, but it won't be anywhere near extinguished in Tarsh, or even in Glamour. I suspect that some suburbs of Nochet have a stronger tribal identity than some Sartarite clans who have low morale due to troubles and setbacks.

I wonder what Gagarth's associated cults are, now that we have an expanded potential list? My suggestions would include some of: Finovan, Lanbril, Trickster, Valind, Stormbull, Thed, Malia, Black Fang. I also suspect that Gagarth is likely to be a shamanic cult rather than a priestly one, as bandits don't generally move in clan-like numbers.

Err... no, because it would mean you are not just incestuous but a necrophile if you then had sex with a parent.

The bonus being that if you crap your trousers in battle, you can say the soiled pants are just bursting with fertility.😜

*snortlaugh*😁 Good example.

I agree with you, so let me add that incest is chaos, and it leads to ogres in Glorantha. This is kinship information that is encoded in one's tribal tattoos. Just because someone is made an outlaw doesn't mean that their bloodline's ties to their kin is extinguished; they don't suddenly not have a mother and father, the outlaw's position is one comparable to being an orphan, in that their parents have disowned them and the outlaw is dead to their kin. There is no upside to producing ogres through incest. No write-up of Gagarth has ever suggested such a thing. Gagarthi live poor and brutal lives on the fringes of Orlanthi and Praxian society, more akin to broos than humans. The thing that saves a Gagarthi from spirits of retribution is time and the severance of the ties to their former god. Spirits of retribution follow the connection established by the sacrifice of that point of POW at initiation, as it forms the conduit to the god one worships. When that connection is severed, so too is the threat of spirits of retribution.

What is to say that this isn't presently the case in Glorantha? Is it not possible that theist magic is merely a different form of this sorcery? The gods haven't been very active since time began.😉

I have always played that one's outer runic affiliation would be very dependent on one's cult and its place within the scheme of things. A warrior would likely proclaim their cult and runic status clearly with tattoos and ornaments, a thief, well... a lot less so. This creates a dynamic where people who outwardly display their runes are suspicious of those who don't. This in turn leads to people in dubious activities potentially displaying false runes.

The idea of the apprentice sorcerer comes as an artifact from RQ3. They were also really weak in comparison to other types of magic user, being extremely reliant on the ritual mechanics of the RQ3 system in order to cast spells at all, but that was what an apprentice needed to do to get good through repetition. Of course you also had the other ranks of sorcery, apprentice, assistant, adept, master etc. but this didn't really fit with Glorantha as a setting at all. RQ3 was predicated on the idea of an ancient Europe more like Ars Magica's Mythic Europe (Except classical period not medieval), but one that was never fleshed out in any detail, except perhaps in the Vikings supplement. The fact is, Zzaburi don't have apprentices, assistants, adepts or masters, which are based on a European guild system, but perhaps something based more closely on monasticism? This might apply (just) to the city states of Lake Safelster in Ralios, where guilds are strong, but not in the major feudal parts of the West. I think we can say with certainty that this system shouldn't apply at all to the way sorcery is practiced in the Holy Country and Dragon Pass, as those institutions simply don't exist in those more Eastern areas. In terms of skills, the philosopher occupation (RQG p70) is the only one that allows for learning sorcery, but a philosopher is NOT an apprentice sorcerer, they are a philosopher and that means a person who loves to learn and ponders the deeper questions of existence, not merely a magical craftsman. As such, the lores are altogether appropriate, as is the orate skill (for purposes of argument and educating). A philosopher is also their own master, which is fitting for a sorcerer outside the Zzaburi model, as one would find in the Theist lands of the East. I would argue that apprentice sorcerers are not Gloranthan at all as an idea.

The deal with the current edition of RQG is that it is pretty specific to the unfolding Hero Wars in Dragon Pass. In this part of the world, you don't get Zzaburi sorcerers like one does in the West, but Philosophers are far more free than Zzaburi would ever be. Zzaburi in most sects are educated to be specialist sorcerers from the age of their apprenticeship, except amongst the Hrestoli, who have comparatively few Sorcerers as most never make it that far in their meritocratic caste progression. The main traditions of Sorcery in this region come from the City of 10,000 Magicians, which was built by the EWF, but is now in Lunar hands, as well as the God Learner alterations to the cults of Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy in the Second Age, and finally the Western invaders of the Holy Country such as Richard the Tiger Hearted, the Marcher Barons, and the Aeolian "Heresy" of the Heortlands. The cult of Pavis also has the mysterious cult of Iffinbix, and the Upland Marsh includes the Necromancer Delecti who served both the God Learners and the EWF in the Second Age. The Lunars have also inherited Sorcery via Carmania and have incorporated it into a specialist Lunar art, as well as weaponizing it into their magical colleges. The difference between the study of sorcery in Dragon Pass and the West is that in Dragon Pass there isn't the religious formality of the West in its caste restriction, but there is more cultural prejudice against sorcery, with its practitioners being called Meldek (soulless) by theist bigots. As a result, there is no professional class of sorcerers in the West per se, and the lore is harder to come by, but lacks the restrictions on sorcery that you will find in the West. Many sorcerers will form into the Sartar Magical Union during the Hero Wars, using their spells in combinations with those of shamans and priests to ruthlessly min-max power-game over the course of this 34 year war.

The lowlands of Tarsh are a very different place to Sartar. They draw their traditions from the Orlanthi tribes to the north of Dragons Pass rather than those of the Heortlands. The Tarshites are people of the axe, historically, but now they are lunar converts and favor the curved blades of their conquerors. They worship Hon-Eel and the Lunar pantheon and there has been an effort to introduce the weak god Doburdun to replace Orlanth in the countryside. The Tarshites are far more horse cavalry oriented than most Sartarites, given than they have open plains. Tarsh recognizes the Feathered Horse Queen as the ruler of Dragons Pass, and sometimes their kings have married her to become Kings of Dragons Pass, but they are far more tied into her religion than Sartar. Many of the serfs of the Grazelanders, called the Vendrefi, are taken or traded from Tarsh. The Tarsh Exiles remain responsible for the coronation of the Sorana Tor, as it can only occur at the Earthshaker Temple at the feet of Mount Kero Fin. The Exiles hate the Lunars and plot with the various minor powers of Dragons Pass to form a coalition against them. Over time, they began to resent the power of the Kingdom of Sartar reborn under Argrath, and made for jealous and inconstant allies. The Tarsh Exiles have better relations with the Dragonewts than most, and the cult of Maran Gor is able to marshal dinosaurs to support its martial ambitions. Tarsh has a larger population than Sartar, and has never had a problem with the ethics of blood sacrifice to serve the earth. This was a fact that Hon-Eel incorporated into her cult, as will be elaborated in the forthcoming Gods of Glorantha. While Tarsh is no stranger to the horrors of the Crimson Bat, they are also occasionally attacked by the Hydra, a multi-headed chaos dragon with powerful regeneration, that is even more destructive than the bat. Lunar illuminates are studying how to bring the hydra under Lunar control as a tool for future wars. Tarsh settled Far Point, the northern reaches of Sartar. As a result Northern Sartar speaks Tarshite, and has closer blood ties to the West than most tribes of Sartar. Lunars are interested in Snakepipe Hollow and the Upland Marsh as a source of chaos mercenaries to be used in pacifying the region, especially after Sartar reasserts itself. The mercenary lord Sir Ethilrist conducts a great deal of business with Lunar Tarsh, and almost invariably serves the Tarshite crown in any wars. While the demon riding Black Horse Troop are sorcerous westerners, they choose to follow the Red Emperor, as he has granted them land, and due to Lunar proximity. The Atroxic church of Sir Ethilrist is also hostile to the Rokari and Loskalmi mercenaries who work for Argrath in his Sartarite Magical Union. It is unknown how the Black Horse Zzaburi feel about the city of 10,000 Magicians in Lunar Aggar, but it is likely to be mixed at best. Dragon Pass has been the main avenue of Lunar Expansion for the last fifty years, and hence it is politically important to the Lunar military, and the site of much career building and nob-jockeying for power. This occasionally becomes quite similar to a "dart competition" in Glamor, though can degenerate into a purge, but is often merely effected by the stroke of the Emperor's stylus with a word in his ear. Commercially Tarsh is a prosperous crossroads for trade. Tarsh exports grain and wool downriver to Nochet and imports a great deal from Peloria, being located on the major caravan route of Genertela. When not ravaged by war, Tarsh is agriculturally rich in cropland, sheep and cattle. The agricultural reforms of the Lunar Empire have taken hold in Tarsh, but the communal agriculture and noble estates and plantations of the Heartlands, while present, have not asserted dominance over the tribal people, and so the tribes still contribute warlike hill-folk to the Lunar Armies, in the form of the Tarsh Corps, who answer to the King of Tarsh, and then the Lunar Military. Lunar Tarsh maintains nominal independence at best, and is a puppet state of the Lunar Empire, with the King of Tarsh being little more than a Lunar Satrap supportend by inheritance rather than appointment.

For Aeolians, Form/Set Lightning is a must. That way their mounted Cataphracts can become Shock Cavalry with lightning lances.

When I GM I do them this way: Aldryami- Whispery, musical intonation, emphasis on "Shhh" noises, a lot of directional gestures and hunting signs, undulating run-on sentences. Baboons- Screechy, hooting, growling, farting and scratching. Broos- Slurping, leering, gurgling, booming for big, or "Peter Lorre-esque" for small. Dragonewts- Hissing sibilants, guttural croaking, decontextualized pauses that relate to non-verbal Dragonewt grammar such as scent and telepathy. Ducks- Normal but slightly high pitched voices, more like Donald Duck speak when they get agitated. Mostali- Monotone, precise, clipped and quick spoken, silence as they choose their responses carefully. Morokanth- Snuffly, squeaky, sometimes growly, some troll slang. Newtlings- Croaky, deep voiced, gurgling, musical intonation, lots of Pavic slang. Trolls- Booming, deep, guttural, chewing noises, hard consonants, farts, plenty of gestures as they work well with darkspeech radar.

A quick question. Does Splendid Yamsur appear on the God's Wall of Raibanth? If not, how do we justify that?

Except for the bony bits, but I'm sure they are completely superfluous.

In Stormbringer you could choose what you had skill in parrying with during character creation. Hankies all round I'm afraid.

Agreed. One of my favorite examples of Murphy's Rules was that as written in the original Stormbringer rules, any improvised object that you parried with had infinite HP. As a result, rule bending players would parry with handkerchiefs, beer steins, old shoes, etc. Basically anything other than a weapon, a body part or a shield. Of course good GMs would "house rule" fix this problem, but it was funny to allow it and watch characters create their specific personalized signature abuse of the system.

You are undoubtedly correct. I blame the SMOF.

For the record there are write-ups of Gagarth in TORM #4 and Pavic Tales #6. Gagarth rides an 8 legged steed with an eagle's beak, is accompanied by spirit wolves, and uses a barbed spear. He also specializes in dragging people off Hero Quests and destroying their destinies. Gagarth is a famous source of Whirlvishes (aka dust devils, whirlwinds). Page 150 of the Book of Heortling Mythology has some write up as well.

Yeah, that's a sticky issue, isn't it? When the mythology doesn't mesh with how life-forms work so we need to retrofit an explanation. I propose this as an answer: Back then, everyone was more holy and mystical and in closer to being gods and with the truth of the world, and so they were natural ascetics and mystics who didn't need to breathe. As a result many people resented the arrival of Air, as it drew them away from the gods that existed before, but the powers of the air allowed people to draw on new powers, so some people started to imbibe the air and take its powers, and over time this became a common trait to most living creatures. Thus the separation of Earth and Sky was also represented in the bodies of all living things. While the Sky cultists would see this as a degeneration, others might see it as a valuable development (up until they are denied a source of fresh air).

We are on the same page I think. I agree, and would add that much depends on the company a character keeps, as you suggest here. I suspect people wind up Gagarthi after a series of pretty reprehensible life choices. They might start off leaving their clan over a matter of honor and principle, but if they choose expedient and/or despicable acts due to peer pressure, but stop short of actual chaos, they will come to rest with the Gagarthi. A Gagarthi family... Now that is something to contemplate. Eww. I wonder how many women would find such a lifestyle desirable enough to join Gagarth at any time in their life? Imagine raising kids in that environment. Remember that Bandits get no income, so they will be on the edge of starvation all the time. Gagarthi are only better than broos because they are not cannibals and are infrequent rapists. As you say OGMV

*Sigh* Do we really need yet another Yelmalio temple scenario? 😜

So what did people breathe back in the time before Umath?