Akhôrahil

Thanks for the comments and helping me think about this! Customs is tricky because we have so few data points. We get Sartar (which as you say should include at least traditionalist Heortland) as opposed to Esrolia, Lunar Provincial (unlike you, I do believe this is intentional, but it should only applied to the actually Lunarized populations, such as Aggarite lowlanders, but not traditionalists), individual Praxian tribes (Vishi Dunn has Customs (Praxian), but this is presumably an error). Sartar and Esrolia are geographically close but to an extent even culturally antagonistic, and I think different Customs make a lot of sense here - if you're a Sartarite going to Esrolia with no idea what to expect, there will be a culture shock. Does this happen between different Alakoringite Orlanthi? I'm not sure - in all likelihood less so, at least - my reading is that the differences would be larger than between Provincials from different provinces (where the Lunar Way has streamlined the cultures a bit), but less than between Sartar and Esrolia. Enough for different skills? That's what I'm trying to find out, here. I'm also trying to see if it helps to apply real-world reasoning - at what level would we apply a Customs skill if applying the RQG rules to the current world? Do I have a Customs (Swedish)? I don't think so - if I go to another Nordic culture, there won't be any culture shock. Not identical, to be sure, but the differences are minor. I think I would be able to use Customs (Swedish) at 9/10ths value in the other countries, and at this point individual skills don't seem productive (meanwhile, Language would be at 1/2 to Norwegian or Danish (and with some Danes, not even that), so in this case Customs would differ less than languages... although some linguists say Swedish/Danish/Norwegian is just one language in three dialects and only the accidents of history makes us pretend otherwise). Should there be a Custom (Nordics) instead? That could be a sensible design choice, but it's worth considering whether it should even be expanded to Customs (Germanics). When we get to Germany or Austria, the difference in culture increases to be sure, but perhaps not necessarily enough to require a new Customs area. I would not go above this though - Customs (EU) seems outright silly. Similarly, let's say we hack RQG for the late Roman Republic. It seems like a non-starter to have a separate Customs skill for each Germanic tribe (for gameplay reasons if nothing else!). I would be inclined to have Customs at the level "Customs (Gauls)", "Customs (Germans)" and so - it might be a simplification, but not grossly so, and seems like it would keep the skill list from simply exploding. By the way, it's great that both you and @jajagappa raised the issue of Sylila - even if one goes with a single Customs (Alakoringite), Sylila isn't quite part of it. And yes, Carmanians certainly get their own Customs skill - that was just outside what I was considering here (Carmania also likely gets four separate Homelands). Just wanted to comment here that RQG tends to list Customs by people or population, not area, so even under your construction, it should probably be "Customs (Carmanians)" and so on. But that doesn't matter for the general discussion. My thoughts: Lakrene: Ethnically Talastari, and some parts of Lakrene ceded just decades ago by King Hakon. Are they really more Sylilan than Talastari? I mean, maybe - Dara-Ni is a strong influence, after all. But if lumped into Customs (Sylilings), it would seem more geographical than cultural - it's not like they have much of anything in common with the Syliling population. Skanthi: It's so hard to tell whether to bunch the Skanthi in with the Aggarites or the Talastari, both culturally and linguistically. Yes, they were originally Penenthelli (i.e. Vingkotling), but in my interpretation, they were joined with Talastar by Lokamaydon, well over a thousand years ago, counting as one of the Talastari tribes ever since. On the third hand (thanks, Pocharngo!), they clearly retain close contacts with the Aggarite highlanders. Provinces: How big are the differences between Orlanthi in Holay/Imther/Vanch/Aggar? By the reasoning above, I could easily see using the same Customs (Germans) or Customs (Nordics) here. Basically, do you get any culture shock or make gross mistakes if you only know of one and go to another? Do you need the separate Custom to function properly in society? I don't think so, but I'm willing to be convinced. They were last unified under Orlanthland and the EWF, which certainly was long ago but less so than with the Talastari peoples, and unlike the separate (south) Heortlings, they were then not isolated from each other for hundreds of years. Displacement and refugees during the Lunar conquest or under Sheng Seleris might have further reduced the differences. Essentially, I'm leaning about equally towards one Orlanthi Provincial/Highland/Alakoringite cultural area and the breakdown you suggest for In-Gloranthan reasons, but kinda prefer wider Customs areas for gameplay reasons. Agree. S:KoH goes as far as identifying Tarshite with Sairdite: 'Also called “Hillspeech,” “North Mannish” or “Sairdite,” Tarshite is a group of Northern Theyalan dialects spoken in southern and western Peloria, Wintertop, and the Far Place.' This even seems to imply that Tarshite is a single language (with different dialects) shared by the Alakoringite Orlanthi. I can't imagine that non-Tarshites would say they speak "Tarshite" though, which is why I like "Hillspeech". The Guide supports this as well for the Provinces: "Various Theyalan dialects, varying with each region." Strong dialectical differences (like between Esrolian and Sartarite within the Heortling language) gets represented with a 1/2 modifier in RQG. So yes, this all makes sense to me, and is a good breakdown. I think it's an easier design to say that there is one "Hillspeech" language (your Provinical Langauges) but that differences in dialect mean that you can get a 1/2 modifier between them, depending. (If we go back to the Scandinavian languages, you get over the initial hurdles very quickly once you're subjected to the other ones, and university courses in one country often hand out literature in one of the other two (the Danes are the leaders in Archaeology, for instance), telling you "you'll get used to it" and expecting students to be able to read at essentially full proficiency after a week or so). Similarly, Anadiki/Lakrene/Skanthi/Brolian should count as Talastari dialects, although I would also be inclined to let Skanthi understand Aggarites at 1/2. I think I like "GM choice" here, letting any dialect penalty go away after spending some time with the new dialect. This is also a gameplay choice - language difficulties can be fun at first but soon wear out their welcome, so adjusting to a dialect helps out with that.

Sideways question - how come Brolia has a population of 100 000 in a notably harsh area, while much larger and presumably less harsh Anadiki has only half that (50 000)? Brolia is actually fairly densely populated (more so than regular Talastar which makes no sense to me!), but Anadiki very sparsely (Skanthiland isn't exactly famous for being fertile ground, but is considerably more densely populated than Anadiki). Did something disastrous happen there recently, or is there anything else holding back the population? It's hard to imagine the terrain could be worse than the notably awful Brolia, so it likely can't be that?

Agree, and unsure about the Sylilings as well. I'm not sure this is a good assumption - it's a couple of hundred years after Missionary contact (in the year 100), and at this point, the Talastarings would be pretty Theyalanized already. Yes (at least as far as northern Dragon Pass goes), but as an influence rather than a colonizing language - the Hillspeech/Alakoringite language is influenced by, among others, Talastaring, but has fundamentally Heortling roots. To an extent, but they would still maintain contact with the Heortling peoples of Peloria, like the neighboring Aggarites. Language drift is to be expected, though, but there's no isolation. I agree with all of this. I think the religious influence of Alakoring and what few fliers he could have brought with him far exceeded any linguistic one. I'm also curious about how much was brought back to Ralios - if it's been isolated from central Genertela since the time of Arkat, 1/10th language proficiency would seem generous, if anything. I have no idea what people in Charg speak - it could also be a Fronelan rather than a Talastaring offshoot. I mostly picture Charg as halfway between Brolia and Fronela, though, so it's probably somewhat related. But oh boy has it been isolated for a while now! I'm not sure that 3/4 or 2/3 is worth bothering with, ruleswise - at this point, it might be easier to just say that "they talk funny". This is also how I picture regular Talastaring to the somewhat more Heortling Skanthing (originally Heortling, but have been part of Talastar since the time of Lokamayadon). 1/2 for Talastaring to Brolian makes sense - even if it's not strictly another language (which it well might be), the dialect is bound to be really heavy up there.

This is a sidetrack, though - any thoughts on the northern Orlanthi Customs/Languages breakdown?

Perhaps in theory, but any troll that tries to apply the idea that all human cultures are the same will probably run into trouble, far more than if you apply the theory to all trolls (I think?). One way to handle this might be to have the Elder Race Lore for the general stuff and the specific Homeland for the particulars, but not applying Customs to them on top of that.

I'm looking at putting the northern Orlanthi of predominantly the hilly areas of Peloria into the RQG system of Languages, Customs and Homelands (for Homeland Lore), along with some of the surrounding peoples, and this is the sketch I have so far. Does anyone have any corrections, sanity checks or just other opinions? I'm not looking to be told that MGWV - I want to know if this contradicts canon, deutero-canonical/apocryphal sources, secret lore, traditional viewpoints, or just common sense. Homelands: I was struggling a bit with this at first, but fortunately the box in the Guide p. 294 turns out to make for a pretty neat list of homelands, at least as far as the Orlanthi peoples go, so it would mean separating Homelands by Lunar Province as well as Talastar/Skanthi/Lakrene/Anadiki/Brolia. On the immediate other side of the Rockwoods, Corolaland, Delela and Karia could be homelands (along with Halikiv, Ormsland and Telmoria). Languages: Talastaring, Hillspeech (or Alakoringite). I wonder if these should be broken up into mutually intelligible dialects, though, the way Heortling/Southern Theyalan gets broken into Sartarite and Esrolian with a x 1/2 language modifier? Tarshite and Aggarite might make sense as separate languages in this way - what would the other language breakouts be, if any? Is the language of Anadiki significantly enough different from "main" Talastaring to count as a separate language at 1/2 modifier? What do people speak in Brolia - some really heavy dialect/sublanguage of Talastaring? For Orlanthi languages in Ralios, might Vustrian (East Wilds), and Korionite (Vesmonstran) be reasonable? As far as I know, we're not given the names of those languages anywhere, and even the Guide says little except that they're Theyalan - my interpretation is that they function a bit like Talastaring, where there's an original non-Theyalan population in the First Age that is then heavily influenced by the Theyalan missionaries to the point hwere it's turned into a Theyalan language, but still retain enough of the original language to be quite distinct from other Theyalan languages. What are the reasonable language multipliers? Heortling = 1/5th Alakoringite, Hillspeech/Alakoringite = 1/5th Talastari, Heortling = 1/10th Talastari (possibly 1/5th, not sure?), the Ralian languages = 1/10th for the Central Genertelan Orlanthi languages? Customs: Talastarings, Alakoringites (technically I guess the Talastarings would be Alakoringites, but it should make sense from the context). Vustrians and Korioni over in Ralios? Or should cultures for Customs be more fine-grained than this? The rulebook does have Lunar Provincial as a single Custom though, so maybe these fairly large Customs areas make sense? Telmori should be a Custom here, as well. I'm never quite clear on how Customs and Elder Race Lores for the Elder Races interact - it seems like the skills are very closely related and heavily overlapping without quite being the same? Or does Elder Race Lore replace Customs for Elder Races? If it doesn't, should different areas for the same Elder Race have separate Customs (like Customs (Halikiv trolls) and Customs (Yolp Mountain trolls)?), or are they just less culturally diverse than humans to the point where this isn't necessary?

Actually, re: Arkat returning (this is dumb theory time again): The aspects are the ones we know of, but who get assigned which is culturally relativistic. So it’s not that one of them is the Liberator, but rather that they get tagged with different labels depending on who is at the receiving end. And then you need Identity Challenges to attempt to resolve it between them, and it’s a whole mess. ”Unhappy the land in need of Arkat.”

As are the four others. But unlike what they want you to believe, he’s The Destroyer, not The Liberator (the comic all but states this). Which explains a lot, actually.

I don't think this is correct for Talastar - the Dawn Talastari worshiped Visku, their variant of (or just name for) Orlanth.

I think the first thing you do when you get out of bed each morning in/near Dorastor is count your number of arms and legs.

And I also wonder what the Crown of Insight is. How I found this thread.

Thread necro: this is my rough attempt at a timeline of the events (originally posted in the Holiday Dorastor FB group). 1622-23? Appius Luxius personally calls on Bolthor to suppress Dorastor 1623 Bolthor calls on Hahlgrim through Lightbringers' Summons, grants him Ironbreaker. Hahlgrim joined by Oddi and Ketil. 1623 Hahlgrim strengthens Chalana Arroy cult among the Bilini, purges Malia cult Late in 1623? Hahlgrim and Oddi raise the Skanthi, later the South Skanthi (Hahlgrim, Oddi, Ketil, Elisif, Paulis). Fights Bagogi in South Skanthiland. Some local population tainted. 1623 or 24? War is ongoing, with losses. King Bolthor complains. Hahlgrim defeats Broo near Slimestone. 1624? Fields burned along the Erinflarth. 1624? Struggle against vampires. Vampire princess Karnoora killed. Majority of army sent back. Bolthor complains, tries to have Ironbreaker returned. Fight against wolf-form Vampires in Spider Woods. Tower of Lead stormed and looted. 1624? Oddi Illuminated by Tricksters Early Sea Season 1625? Hahlgrim, Oddi, Ketil, Paulis back with Bolthor (Hold of the Bilini). Hahlgrim wants dual press on Slimestream and Tobros Mountains, aiming at the Plateau of Wrath. 1625 Bolthor negotiates personal peace with Ralzakark. Betrayal of Hahlgrim by Bolthor. Hahlgrim attacked by Thanatari allies of Bolthor, slain by crossbow bolts from Bolthor's guards. Ironbreaker slays Bolthor. Paulis fends off Thanatari. 1625 Oddi cleanses Hold of the Bilini of Bolthor's thanes. Assistance by Ketil. Bolthor's cleft head mounted on main gate 1625 Oddi hunts down Bolthor's thanes and allies. 1625 Oddi claims Ironbreaker (when?). Declared king at moot. Assisted by Ketil. Oddi has dark rages. 1625 Negotiations with Lunars, assisted by Paulis. Freedom in Bilini matters in order to fight Ralzakark. Later we learn that Oddi has secured Lunar trade while cutting out the Etyries cult, whic is apparently notably impressive. Mid Sea Season 1625 Oddi and Paulis Longvale travelling towards Copperbark Forest, just outside Bilini borders, sees Crimson Bat. Bat possibly heading for Dragon Pass. Late Sea season 1625 Assault on Dorastor renewed successfully, Sludgestream cleansed, Broo hold upper reaches of Dorastor Fire season? 1625 Oddi's forces cleanse and seal Krarshti tunnels and temple near Oddi's lands. Tunnels reach outside Bilini lands. Fire-Earth? 1625 Oddi realizes Illumination, talks to Paulis. Fire-Earth? 1625 Main campaign against Ralzakark, Oddi slays Ralzakark (twice in a day?). Almost no information about this. "Few survived this final battle besides [Oddi], Ketil and Paulis." (LoT) Earth? 1625 Paulis visits Ketil in Oxhead. Ketil concerned about Oddi. Oddi orders new temple to Orlanth (where? Oxhead seems like it wouldn't make sense, unless it's an upgrade) Earth? 1625 Oxhead helps secure Sludgestream for farmers

I like the intense Death rune presence, so high it damages you (CON damage, I would say, to make it more annoying to heal) just from sticking around, and you have to decontaminate yourself of it later (through magical rituals of course, not showers). Longer exposure might begin to shift your Death/Life runic axis (perhaps in this particular case, your Death rune can go to 100%, which means you die). It even works with some ideas about Death-presence among Humakti (IMG, it's supposed to be bad if a Humakti's shadow falls on a pregnant woman). Given that this is Glorantha, the Death "radiation" should be worse in Death week and less bad in Fertility week. The strength can be modelled either as a contested roll against the local Death rune strength, or as POT using the Resistance table.

Tough Guide to Fantasyland map (Diana Wynne-Jones):

Eurmal only convinced everyone he was among the dead. It's the perfect alibi. (Probably masterminded the whole thing, come to think of it. Nice trick, right?)

I can’t see any potential problems with giving away parts of Wakboth as gifts.

Also active research - sometimes my players have travelled to visit a temple and look for a suitable myth. Once you have the myth, you can HeroQuest it.

Happens when you do the right kinds of ritual actions in the correct setting, but it would make sense to have a skill for it (I could buy a "HeroQuesting" skill, or else just Cult Lore). Possibly one like Worship, that will essentially always work with enough bonuses. I believe you "slide" into it, never quite realizing you've entered a Hero Realm until it's already happened. (And then there's "This World" heroquests.) Yes, both hostile and accidental. Case in point, last session the PCs were ascending Thunder Mountain because they had this (actually good) plan of getting their prize ewe bred by Vorios the Thunder Ram. Near the summit (which is clearly no longer fully mundane), they stumbled - unprepared - on a Gagarthi heroquester trying to hunt the Storm Ram with his improvised Wild Hunt equivalent (a collection of various ghosts, air elementals, hunting hounds and crazed human followers). It was hella nasty at first (any time fairly new characters are outnumbered four to one by anything it's scary), but fortunately for them, Vorios critted on the first roll once he got into action, and that's all she wrote. (We did have one PC down to 1 HP and two players one spirit combat roll from possession, though... I have no idea how my players manage to keep getting to a crisis point and then dig themselves out of it.) (They also ran into various heroquesters from history, because I don't believe time works the normal way in hero realms. Who's this Jotorang Ingkarthorson, anyway?) I see this as a bit like Worship - maybe you can do it with the bare minimum, but why risk it? I would put the items you list as bonuses, not outright requirements. Possibly excluding some kind of Sacred Ground, from temple/santificy/sacred location, which might be a requirement.

I wonder how much sorcery would be affected - in a way, sorcery is just the physics of Glorantha.

Hence, the Arkati troll in deep meditation is " just chillin' ".

Among troll Arkati, "Occlusion" is the term for the praiseworthy type of "Endarkening". Being "Illuminated", "Enlightened" or "Seeing the Light" are all bad things.

You get some additional useful magic? But Orlanthi kingship is far older than the Rex (Alakoringite) system, so you could run just a Vingkotling kingship if you like. Presumably you have to be able to demonstrate your ancestry in this case, like King Broyan (whom I interpret as ruling through the Vingkot rather than the Rex system of kingship).

This also seems to me to be the MGF solution.

Or possible even the other bunch of immortal caste-based fascists: "You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Mostal, your God, gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good. The Penis is evil. The Penis shoots seeds, and makes new life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the Gun shoots death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill! Mostal has spoken!"

For the Renekoti, I run it as having the exogamous requirement removed for the first generation or two. It's usually motivated as counter-inbreeding, counter-incest, and contact with other clans, but for a new clan made up of people from all over the place, there is no risk of accidental incest or inbreeding, and right now, tying the clan together has higher priority than contacts with other clans. For a splinter clan, this will not be the case, though.