JRE

My take on this is that due to Monrogh's quest, not only did his supporters suddenly know about Yelmalio, but that even the Elmali that did not join him started to remember the Yelmalion myths and see the Yelmalion myths when going to the other side. After a few community heroquests almost all Elmali were actually Yelmalions, probably to the dismay of many orlanthi chieftains. A few probably pushed back, and if they had support of their clans maybe they held on, for a while, but if several hundred thousands Yelmalions believe one thing, the few hundreds of Elmali holding on will find it increasingly difficult, and what is worse, pointless, to resist, as they will not be getting magic, and fireblade just does not work for them unless they abandon their god. This is a magical consensus system. If enough people believe it is so, or if people with enough power do so, now it is so. Though it does not mean the opposite cannot be true at the same time. Most people can believe several contradictory things at the same time, if they do not have to think hard about it. Convince enough people, and you can create a god, or kill it, for a time... Even if it seems in a HQ you are convincing gods or heroes in the other side, it is actually your own people and other worshippers doing ceremonies who you are convincing, and if you succeed, reality changes to adapt. Only a few heretical god learners and chosen dragon mystics would believe this in Glorantha, but for me, the magic that allows an orlanthi priest to fly does not come from Orlanth, but from his own belief (if strong enough) or the belief of his congregation that he is holy enough to be able to fly. Orlanth is a guide you can see in the God time, how to live, how to die, and what benefit you get from following the instructions, and punishments for not doing so. But the actual power comes from you, and if you are not strong enough, others who think similarly. The instructions can be changed by different revelations, so much that we have little idea how orlanthi really were at Dawn. So much for the immutability of God Time. That is why I consider Yelmalions suck in individual combat, because even them believe it, but are good in mass combat, because they are convinced of it. Solanthos Ironpike is a special case, because he agrees most Yelmalions suck at duels, but he has unlimited confidence in his own ability, and is a good duelist as a result. Each victory just reinforces it, and the county agrees with him that he is exceptional. As other people believe other things, it is not enough to believe you should rule the world to rule the world, but it is a step in the right direction. And if you get a few million people agreeing with you, you can rule a big chunk.

IMG the third weapon of Yelmalions will be a projectile weapon, either javelin or bow. A military campaign is much more than a field battle. Ideally, for a mercenary, it is everything except a field battle. If you are foraging, patrolling or occupying a town / city, pikes are useless, and Templars, as in my phalangite example above, will use spears and possibly javelins. For foraging and patrolling a ranged weapon is a must. Javelins can be carried and used with a shield, while bows have some mythical significance and are very useful when foraging for food. Following other traditional users of phalanx tactics, only proven, reliable men (and a few women) will be in the phalanx. Others will be working as auxiliaries, in loose order with long spears, covering rough terrain, chasing skirmishers, and supporting the flanks of the phalanx, while waiting for their opportunity to join the ranks. All ancient armies have skirmishers, often teenagers, that act as scouts and covering the advance, retreating behind their big brothers when anything menacing comes. More or less like trolkin, in fact, except trolkin cannot grow up. I would expect any tactic we can think of has already been tried in Glorantha. If RW pikemen could advance through cannon fire and arrive diminished but in good order, an elemental you can actually stab and dismiss will be a minor obstacle at most, specially for a Wyter reinforced phalanx. And in case there are earth elementals lurking underground, that is what the youngster skirmish line is for, as I do not expect you can give complex orders to a buried earth elemental. This is a small section of a (typical frontage would be 6-8 sections like this) Macedonian phalanx, twice as deep as hoplites would be. Jumping or even flying will not be a good idea. As you can see you have to go through five pikes just to get to contact...

This has not been mentioned, though probably most people listened to it in the "Black Hawk Down" soundtrack, but even with the electronics I have used it as base for an Orlanth wooing Ernalda scene. As an extra, it has pipes and the lyrics fit quite well.

It probably is semantics, but I believe that to have a working pike phalanx, rather than a shield wall, you need a lot of people, as you need a minimum frontage and depth, specially if you want to be able to adopt a hedhehog formation to protect all sides. I would expect a minimum of 64 (8x8), which is probably out of most games. Lunars might well settle on 7x7, but prime numbers are unwieldy compared to base 2. Alexander's silver shields, his elite phalangites, fought in rough terrain and sieges in a similar way to what later would become the thureophoroi, a relatively loose formation with long thrusting spear and javelin, though probably keeping their tell-tale silver shields rather than the later oval thureos shield. It is supposed that is also the equipment when acting as royal guards, as it makes no sense to use pikes for that. Ancients were not fools, so pikes would be used only when appropiate, and in other cases they would adapt. Of course a sign of elite status is the number of different situations you can cope with.

As indicated by Eff more clearly than in my rambling response, although I do not believe in moral relativism in the Real World, I do believe it works in Glorantha. So yes, a true believer orlanthi will link to the chaos rune by doing things that a Vadeli may well consider Law. That is the explanation of the strange interaction between illumination and chaos. I also believe that Arachne Solara's Great Compromise brings chaos as a constituent part of the world, so all creatures born/created in Time have the potential for Chaos, so they can link with it spontaneously. Which is why the orlanthi are doomed to fail, as Chaos cannot be purged from the world. it has to be accepted. How that plays in the long term when Heroes use Chaos to break the compromise itself is more difficult to forecast. But as the entrance of Chaos in the Universe is in the Godtime, isolating the Godtime from the world may well eliminate any concentrated chaos, remaining only Kajaboor's entropy, already integrated and dispersed in the fabric of Glorantha.

I would always do this as a deliberate event, and I see two options. As a "punishment" for players that did not prepare the heroquest, in terms of knowledge, support or magic, their heroquest can be hijacked by someone else. A typical one is to appear as enemy in someone else's quest, which could just be your neighbours you are feuding with. The other option is that, as the player characters get more mythical, their shadow in the heroplanes gets larger, and I would increase the chance of them being caught in someone else's HQ. I would not determine this randomly, but as a deliberate event, probably to highlight that they are really heroforming, and for powerful characters a matter of choice, but usually at risk of weakening their connection with the divine if they do not step up. It can be a bother for the heroic character, but just think who would dare to heroquest when Harrek is nearby with the risk that if he feels like it he will appear as Death in your heroquest. Similarly, just knowing Jar Eel is around may be enough to stop all anti-lunar heroquests, unless you have a loving companion able to keep her distracted for a while...

I play it that, if you overcome the spirit POW in a case of overt possession, you wrest control of the dog from the spirit while the spell lasts, but if it is still possessing it when the spell ends, it reasserts itself, though I would allow the dog a new opportunity to resist the possession at that point. In the case of covert possession, you control the dog if you overcome the dog's POW, and the spirit continues to do its thing, whether spreading disease, or gathering information. You have no control over the spirit.

It depends on where you are. For most of Glorantha Chaos is the external foe, the one you can never compromise. Most peoples will label as Chaos what they consider as enemies, even if it is not really connected with the Chaos rune. Many westerners put trolls and broos in the same category, krjalki, while trolls are clearly anti-chaos rune, for instance. Some cultures will label adultery as chaotic, and others not. In the ones that consider it chaotic, engaging in it may well link you to Chaos for real. Mythically Chaos is anything or anyone that breaks the rules of the universe. So rulebreakers are often considered as chaotic by the powers that be. That is the basis of the Lunar approach, that to evolve and change, to break the stagnation of the Godtime, you need Chaos, even if most of its manifestations melt flesh and break minds. That brings up the paradox of an Empire built on breaking rules pursuing their own rulebreakers, with nasty consequences. Connection with the Chaos rune allows you to do impossible things, and that is attractive to some, but breaking reality is very difficult to control, and you end up breaking other things too if you are not careful, including your body or your mind. It also marks you with the Chaos rune, that some people can detect and usually react with extreme prejudice. Even with good intentions, if the whole world seems against you and treats you like a monster, you will become a monster. It is not clear if being connected with Chaos makes you chaotic, or being chaotic links you with the Chaos rune. Probably both, which is why Illumination works to hide your inherent chaos, as you realise it is mostly a social construct with an underlying objective reality when you break the world's inherent rules rather than society's.

I would agree that with a minimum effort the quest starts, but if the support is weak or the preparation is insufficient you have two choices, either make it a shallow quest (normal steps, decreased reward) or add some opposition linked to the failure, so the players know they did not do their homework. I would not have Rune points (beyond Sanctify if needed) used up at start, but some stages may require a certain magic (Fly in many Orlanthi myths, for instance). That is a strong motivation for spell trading, but you need to have other extra preparations if the leader does not exactly fit the mythic protagonist. However I also use that you can draw magic and in extreme cases Rune magic from your supporters, and that is a big plus for supported quests, as you may well have a magic point pool of thousands of points if you have the whole Colymar tribe behind you, and if the high priest of Orlanth Adventurous is fully behind you, hemight lend you the use his Fly spell if you do not have it. The questers still need to roll, but the tools available will be very different. You would need some symbol of the magic beforehand, such as a gift of winged sandals from the priest, not an improvisation when you find you cannot follow the Thunder brothers. IMG in the Godtime magic is undifferentiated, so you can use a similar magic to pass a stage. This is an Arkati secret later exploited by the God Learners, and now rediscovered by Argrath and some Lunars. So if you fly to meet a dragon, it does not matter how you fly, but you need to fly. A sorcerer using Fire bolt in a theist quest will appear as using a Sunspear to her fellow questers, wich may raise some questions. My Glorantha is sorcerously skewed, however, as with preparation it allows you to recreate almost any magic, as demonstrated by the God Learners. The downturn for the GLs is that succesful heroquests make you closer to the mythic figure you follow, which means your sorcerers start to become theist heroes, or dragon wannabes, or human troll hybrids, or undead abominations, depending on the quests you explore. That way you have all those former GL satellites breaking off as they lose sight of the Abiding Truth to focus in their own power.

In Glorantha a famous regiment will usually beat a recently formed one, just by the weight of tradition and magic, so you should not extrapolate too much from real world pairings. The wyter is a key part of this, and IMG an additional protection against rampaging heroes / PCs. Soul sight and Dismiss / Dispel Magic is a powerful defensive combo, and a 100 POW Wyter may be enough to keep any sane shaman far away. The reason why some Lunar regiments are successors from centuries old Dara Happan ones is because it works.

For bigger groups, specially with access to sorcery such as some Lunars, Protective circle is a big obstacle to this magic use. Wyters / Regimental spirits may also play havoc with your stealthy teleports, depending on their range. What will work with a patrol will not work with a regiment. You need to think differently. It is possible that the orlanthi think teleport because it is the technique they have, but maybe Kallyr assassins were dropped invisibly from a high altitude moon boat, and glided down with the help of a sylph. They appear as if teleporting when the Sartar's Royal Guard wyter dispels the invisibility.... Or maybe they are loyal Lunar Orlanthi showing their loyalty to the Empire by taking on a suicide mission. In a way magic is a game of paper, scissors, stone, spock, lizard, so expectations and research can make characters much more involved in the action, specially by challenging those expectations. But of course the players should always have a chance, so the challenge must fit also with the characters.

The counterexample would be intelligent undead, which have no spirit, or have had it destroyed, but they can have memories and work more or less normally. Humakt's aversion to them is because this is considered as cheating death, as you lack the part that dies and goes to the underworld. So a mind without a spirit is possible. And even a disembodied one (wraith). I do not have references at hand, so I cannot say how that interacts with the different parts of the soul. Concerning the thread question, what interests me is what happens if the ghost binding is dispelled/destroyed. Does the humakti ghost just leave to the afterlife? Do they remain till all current enemies are no longer present, and then leave for Humakt's hall? Clearly they cannot remain indefinitely, or there would be no need for the ghost binding. Most ghosts are naturally bound to the material plane, but Humakti ones remain voluntarily, at least till the binding is cast.

As this is after all fantasy, my main go to temple music is Dead can Dance and Lisa Gerrard. Non understandable lyrics in most cases, and for instance The Serpent's Egg even has suitable titles, from Echolalia to the Chant of the Paladin, though it is not for everyone. Immortal memory, with Patrick Cassidy, is easier, specially Elegy or the two Amergin pieces (and I made a NPC of that name just as an excuse to use the music).

RQ3 with some MRQII, though we are implementing changes to a RQG - RQ3 Hybrid with house rules. 10 years, but it is PBEM so it advances slowly. Roughly a day takes from 1 week to one month. This means the ten years have been three seasons and a Holy Time, with a couple of seasons travelling off-screen. 908 ST, in the middle part of the second age. Initial aim was to weaken the EWF / Orlanthi alliance against Zistor. Kethaela, specially Nochet, Karse and Kethaela. Took part in a plot to raise the Orlanthi against the EWF. Now fleeing Delecti's kill squads and traveling to Pavis. A Jrusteli student, masquerading as an Issaries herald and a Slontos Trickster graduate, just enjoying being an Eurmali. The Jrusteli has become a draconic illuminate and is convinced he cannot return back home. Guide to Glorantha is my bible. Some MRQ material on Jrustela, Sandy's sorcery, Revealed mythologies. As Sartar interests me only marginally, very little recent material beyond RQG. Fully player directed. It was expected to go to Kralorela, but the players are convinced Pavis will be both safer and Orlanthi / familiar enough. Missed the Rough Guide to Pavis 894 ST the first time, so looking forward to the new publication. Not applicable in this case, though I both try to respect the limited sources, while using the gray areas to do whatever I want. Twoflowers in Glorantha, growing up fast, with Hannibal Lecter as the Luggage trying to keep him safe. Decide from the beginning what is important to you, discuss it with your players, and do not try to fit your game to the published data, but the published data to your game. There is too much, so it is better to pick and choose what you like. RQ is not the only way to explore Glorantha, but it fits well. As you can see a bit unusual but I am sure there are other people that spent years in the Second age.

You cannot compare formation combat with individual combat. If you can hold your formation, the closest effective order will usually beat any looser one. There are a few exceptions with equipment or morale advantage (dismounted knights or viking huscarls versus spearmen militias) but in battle that has been the case except when projectile weapons change the dynamic. Which is why almost all close order infantry uses spears, and usually they are beaten only by even more closely packed pikemen, or strange hybrids such as the legion, that still fought in very close order. This highlights the fighting style changes a lot when you fight in formation compared to fighting on your own, specially in terms of mobility and trading ground for defence. Weapons for one are not necessarily good for the other. In most cases players will be looking at dueling styles, and formation combat will be down to armour, magic and luck, as by definition you cannot really move freely in formation. In terms of arming whole armies, cost and weight is more important than for individuals, as a weapon you have on you is always 100 times better than the wonderful weapon you do not have. A good example is comparing all the interesting Chinese martial arts weapons with the few actual weapons used by Chinese soldiers throughout the centuries and in different dinasties. Career soldiers with cut and thrust polearm, a more flexible weapon than a spear in the hands of skilled users, and spear armed militias. Another factor that RQ acknowledges but does not tackle right is skill difficulty. Using a broadsword is easier than using an arming (cut and thrust) sword. Using a spear effectively is easier than using a kopis. Hitting people with a club or stabbing them with a knife is the easiest, and many people are still killed now by people with no training using those weapons. In RQ you may have 5 or 10% difference, but if that is all the difference, everyone will gravitate to the same weapons, as improving them is equally difficult, usually flexible weapons that offer several styles and usually good damage ratios. How many people would change their swords for spears if skill improvement were 1/3 less with a sword, so you were really choosing between 90% sword or 120% spear? As our current campaign is not combat oriented, with the characters using quarterstaff and daggers, I am not really concerned by the granularity of combat, but in our previous combat heavy RQ3 campaign we fine tuned the starting skill values, and we substracted the starting value from the actual value to check for improvement, so it was much easier to improve 1-H club skill (starting value 40%) than Rapier (01%).

I know they do not work like that. I was just trying to reconcile contradictory evidences without throwing any of them out of the window. As it is true an orlanth - orlanth marriage would not be good from a fertility perspective, how about their clans sharing the kingship, alternating or some other division of responsibilities? Depending on your allegiances and preferences, one would be the king and the other just part of the ring. How you handle it when you have two Orlanth Rex (as heads of their clans) in the tribe ring? High priest is reserved in Sartar to Sartar's bloodline. So you have two Rex in the same ring, and both could be priests of Orlanth Rex. Deciding seniority could be deferred to avoid splitting the tribe in such a critical moment in time.

Could they be King and Queen of the Colymar at the same time? Political marriage and all that... Dangmet could be then his son from other marriage, as I do not expect Orlanthi appreciate infant kings and regencies, but he could co-rule with his mother-in-law a few years. Just fitting the pieces to see what comes out.

If nobody said it in the Dumb theory thread, I will say so: I am sure Belintar was a God Learner survivor, and his survival after the fall makes me think he was not in Glorantha at the time, so I think it is likely he is/was an Outer Atomic Explorer that managed to get back. No idea how he left Glorantha and how he came back, except that I suppose he entered the mortal realms through a hole in the sun dome, his "ship" fell victim to the Closing, almost killing him, but he recovered most of it later and it became part of the basement of the City of Wonders and the powering unit of his roads.

To the consideration that trolls and spiders are separate in the Aranea cult, i answer: Cragspider.

I agree that the traditional Zorak Zorani tactics represent how things were before the Curse, when you had hordes of dark troll warriors and could beat one on one almost any other. But those hordes do not exist anymore. The high magical value of females makes magic in offensive operations weak, while they remain very strong in defence of their territory. As far as I know the only significant territory expansion after the Curse was Guhan, and it was a gift from Arkat's Dark Empire. They have resisted but they are unable to expand. Returning to the original question, Argan Argar is the only cult that tries to get some combat value out of trolkin, and that is why they are also very sneaky compared to other troll or trader cults. The combo Create Shadow and Darkwalk is difficult to beat as stealth goes, and also quite overpowered in combat.

I agree with both. Traditional Uz tactics were not stealth as such but blinding and confusing their opponents, either directly or through dehori and shades. As they met more sophisticated or stronger opponents, stealth became important, but it only became general after the trolkin curse. For trolkin their only way to survive long, both strangers and other trolls, is stealth. I think the trolkin curse (well within history) shattered the trolls typical tactics, as they no longer could go maul to sword against their enemies, as attrition was unbearable when you cannot replace your losses. The impact is not only having a bunch of weaklings, but that they have much less magic available, less leaders, less respect. Trolls came to the surface as conquerers, and they were among the strongest factions till Nysalor cursed them. That is for me the turning point, both to make use of the trolkin hordes and because they could not use the overwhelming tactics from the past.

I am on the Dominate / Control works side. The spirit reaction will depend on its instructions (if any) and character, as faced with a magician able to overcome it, it may well be safer to stay inside the dog than becoming a target for control or dominate. If the possession is overt, then any answer to questions will be the spirit's, who is not compelled, so it may say whatever it wishes. In a covert case the replies will be the same as if it was not possesed. To do otherwise would make, in my opinion, shamanic cultures too powerful. Unleash a bunch of ghosts and you can annihilate the civilians in a settlement. This way at least the chieftain can try to keep them quiescent long enough to immobilize them while they look for a longer term solution, or just wait till they recover MP and use spirit block to help them kick the possessor out.

We use several house rules based on historical fencing and equipment. The longer weapon is advantaged in normal combat, but if the space is restricted or you succeed in a maneuver to get close, the longer weapon counts as an improvised weapon as you fight with the haft or the pommel. It is another advantage of shields as shields tend to be short range, so if the dagger guy gets too close to hit them with your sword, push them with your shield. In RQG I would house rule improvised weapons as 1D4, SR3 and the normal HP, so the two handed sword becomes worse than a dagger in a hut or when your foe is in physical contact. The maneuver to enter the guard would be based on Dodge, while lengthening the distance just requires space (bad luck in the above mentioned hut or if outnumbered) and either a 5 SR maneuver (meaning you cannot attack unless fast) or a succesful attack (unparried hit). Yes, we play that if six trolkin attack you with clubs, after the first attack your space is restricted so you cannot use fully your weapon. As the weapon magic and your skill still applies to the improvised weapon, a humakti Sword will probably brain three of the trolkins with guard and pommel strikes, and then skewer the other three, but for someone less well prepared it can be deadly. Some weapons are flexible (quarterstaff, shortspear with two points) and can be used with different grips / distances. Coming from other systems and RQ3, the encumbrance rules in RQG favor heavy armour if the character is strong enough, and that is how it should be for melee combatants, as history shows. However we apply penalties to missile use (but not projectiles) with arm armour, as historically they usually carried chest armour and helmets but not arm armour except for an archer bracer, and high penalties to perception with helmets or helms. Not important in a normal duel where the enemy is in sight, but that forces people to take helmets off in non combat situations. Many officers and generals were killed because they fought without helmets to really be aware of the situation around them. We also assign an encumbrance level depending on leg armour, and general weight carried compared to strength. That modifies movement, dodge and cumulative penalties (every round to every four rounds). Combat is exhausting, and historically duels between well armored fighters usually depended on who tired first, or the lucky hit (criticals and specials).

In my opinion hsunchen, though it is a Kralori term, is actually a God Learner concept, and they joined together peoples that themselves have very different origin myths. Being the meddlers they were, and that they liked to tidy other peoples myths, I would expect that the fact that hsunchen have similar structures and myths could simply be a God Learner project. In the same way, and based on Troll Gods, as pointed out by Dumuzid, though it may become obsolete soon, Gorakiki and Aranea are shamanic cults that I am sure the God Learners would have classed as troll-hsunchen. I would propose that Darkness actually makes it easier for troll hsunchen (darkness people who are both children of KL and Aranea, for instance, as shown by Cragspider) to integrate in the normal society, rather than a fringe culture. Trolls consider normal sex and procreation with spirits or creatures humans would not consider possible (Pikat Yaraboom comes to mind, or Cragspider using dehori on uzko volunteers). As in the Fronelan discussion, as the first option I prefer to take the culture myths at face value, so I do not believe in a single origin for the animal humans, and I expect that some are animals that imitate humans, others are humans that mixed with animals, and finally others are humans that survived the horrors of the darkness by adopting animal ways. But in all cases mixed with ancestor worship, the first culture heroes that started living this way, or discivered the magic that make this possible. That will bring up different customs and taboos, such as eating or not the totem animal, having sex or not with the totem animal (shapechanged, or in some cases without), and whether adoption is easy or if it requires an ancestor, which is still possible for the magically savvy, but much more difficult. The Blue Plateau trolls have Moon in addition to Dark, and bats seem one of the few animals associated with the Moon rune, so I had a sudden insight that a pseudo-hsunchen spell would make trolls with wings without needing to change anything else.

This is my opinion. No canon here. I would say Aranea and Gorakiki are the dark troll beast cults. I am sure isolated groups will have a shaman based culture and still transform into their beast. I would not be surprised if the winged trolls of the Blue Moon were really troll-bat hybrids. Humans have no inherent elemental association, but trolls are associated with Dark, so their beast association should be with those linked with the dark.