French Desperate WindChild

I think "Kyger Litor rules Dagori Inkarth" means a lot of things : 1) KL is the great goddess of trolls, trolls rule Dagori Inkarth, so KL rules Dagori Inkarth (not the goddess herself, the cult) so no issue with the compromise 2) KL herself rules Dagori Inkarth but how ? Does she decide herself who is appointed to this position ? did she order her warrioris to attack tomorrow the forest ? to negociate some stuff with the neigbours because the tribes need more food that they have ? For me no: she is not the temporal leader of the area. She doesn't breach the great compromise. As any god she doesn't make decision, plan, or anything temporal. That is her heirs who do the job (figurarively the priestess, but because KL, physically some real great children mistress race trolls) Now, like, for me, Aldrya (and Magasta ?) she is both a goddess and an ancestor. - as a goddess she offers spells, etc.. can answer (divination, DI, ...) and the most important for any god, has defined the good behavior, laws and other rules since before the compromise. So yes she rules Dagori Inkarth - as an ancestor (shamanism way) she may be summoned to share some temporal experience and activity. In all cases that the shamans who open the door, not she, herself. So no issue with the compromise (from my perspective) another point is "geography" (like Magasta and the seas ?) Dagori Inkarth is both in the mundane world and in the underworld (you may probably find some tunnels, caves, etc..) So if you have mundane beings, probably the high priestess, who navigate (heroquest ? normal walk ?) between the upper and the under Dagori Inkarth, they can have even more information / instruction than any other spirit cult or god cult the great compromise doesn't block the gods to do thing. They only cannot act by themselves, they cannot imagine new ways, they cannot decide. But if you ask, they may answer, with words or magic. In th white bull campaign (don't remember the #), Orlanth was able to answer the pcs where was the lunar army. the answer was x days from Boldhome (if I'm right) so Orlanth understand time (x day) and understand mundane location. He is here and now So is KL, here and now, mother of all the trolls, ruler of all trolls empires

How to learn rune spell @Scotty @FlamingCatOfDeath thought there were two ways, paying OR sacrificing

unfortunatly not i searched in the well https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-magic-qa/#ib-toc-anchor-0 but not these points. May the true god @Scotty validate (or invalidate) my answers 😛

yes I agree. My point was if your first summon was spirit A, how, in another season, can you summon a different spirit than A (because the rules say once you summon A, you always summon A) Sp I conclude, if I want to summon A alone sometimes, and B alone sometimes I need to learn another version of the spell (another version = another sacrifice) . But that was not the good way mm I think this point was already answered in other posts (but my memory)... from my perspective there are two things : 1) someone (mundane) teaches you knowledge, practice, etc... You must pay (mundane) for that => lunar or reward, or what you want 2) you need to create a "chanel" between your soul and your deity dedicated to this spell (= pow sacrifice) mundane sacrifice (1) is not enough (but I am able to say again some wrong things... however I always play it like that both mundane requirement + POW sacrifice) and to complete : a) you can sacrifice pow to gain more RP even if there is no spell to learn (or if you don't want to learn another one) b) you must sacrifice only 1 pow for any spell, even if the "cost" to cast the spell is 2 or 3 RP. Of course if you don't have enough RP you cannot cast the spell you know

but people of these two societies would not be happy to discover one of them joined the "other". Illumination, if you get the right ability, doesn't prevent you of (mundane) others judgement

seeing Scotty answer, it seems I didn't understand well the second spirit.. For me, it was [ 1 pow = you summon spirit A then B then C. once everyone is out, if you summon again, the first one will be A, then B, then C etc. If you want to summon B without summoning A before, you need to have a "second" summon spell = 1 more pow) ] but I will follow Scotty answer now

I should read before being ridiculous .... thanks David

a question... once altered, what does the new sentient beast (bison, herd man, impala... ) speak ? Praxian ? beast speech ? ba ba ba ?

death is not the end, when you die, you leave the mundane world so when an embodied spirit die, you may summon it later. However, I will request to wait weeks to do it (to let the spirit regenerate/travel from some part of the underworld/etc) however a gm may accept the "destruction" of the spirit (so no come back). but in this case it will not be done by killing the body or just win a spirit fight. Something more chaotic probably to sumon a spirit you need to use rune point, not POW, you need to sacrifice POW to learn the spell and to build your rune pool. But you regain your rune points. However, I would allow to sacrifice/learn several times the summon spell X, to obtain different spirits with the same size X ( so one summon spell implies always the same spirit as you noticed). Not sure it is usefull however to have a lot of spirits except when you are shaman or priest dedicated to a temple (you need a lot of spirits with you to manage a temple, I think)

your analysis is very human centric 🙂 the herd man becomes a "true" morokanth the herd beast becomes an intelligent mount for human being for me this alteration should not be seen for any utilitarian dimension: the beast you transform in sentient is no more your beast. You (the khan) would probably see it as a clan member. Now imagine yourself as a clan member. Will you accept to be the mount of your boss ? will you accept to no have the same status than the other members ? if you lose a bound spirit in a mount, it would be better to prey and ask your god for another one, after a mourning period. of course our glorantha vary so that is just my feeling, but Waha is not god of human beings, he is god of praxian people (human, morokanth, ... bison, impala, ...) Remember his father is a bull (not exactly 😛 ) , and his mother/wife is a cow (or any other beast, ... not exactly 😛 ) He makes difference between herd (food) and sentient (eater), he makes no difference with their shape. (again my perspective only)

yes all the issue is the definition of multi-culting. Of course (well I mean...) a Sartarite, a Lunar, an Esrolian, a Praxian, a Tarshite, a Grazer ... worships a lot of gods. So in this way, every one is "multi culting" (except some "weirdos" outside the setting and few inside dragon pass) Now you may define multi-culting as "knowing the cults lore" I consider Lay member status as you have acces as the cult lore, but not all the secret, and of course, not the "spells". You show your devotion, maybe you want to be accepted to gain more knowledge, maybe you are lay member only because you have a devotion for this god. or multi-culting as "knowing the secret cults lore" or multi-culting as "knowing the cults spells" I consider Initiate status as you have access to both cult spell and secret cult lore.To learn secret cult lore you have to study AND experiment ( initiation quest, worshiping 'quest', 'hero quest'). I think this point, experimentation, is very important. You are accepted by the gods as one of them or one of their follower. That means a strong connection, that means difficulties. These difficulties, for me, are designed by the character's runes scores. So from this perspective I think the rules design that there are few multi cultists (aka multi-initiates). Of course pc are exceptional heroes, so one day or another they would have opportunities to join different cults secrets and connexions. then I share with you another issue : the knowledge of another cult of the pantheon It is an option. For me there are two ways, without adding any skill a) you consider (you don't like it, it seems 😛 ) the locale culture score b) you consider that your own cult lore can answer some questions about another god of your pantheon because there are relationship between the gods, they are relationship between the myths, between the experience In both case I would as a gm 1) give a penalty depending of how secret is the answer ( You are issaries worshipper, you want to know something about Odayla : -60% to your Iassries cult lore for example, depends on the secret) 2) reduce the penalty if your cult is "associated" with the other one (You are issaries worshipper, you want to know something about Orlanth: -60+20 = -40% ) 3) give a bonus if the character is lay member of the other cult (You are issaries worshipper and Orlanth lay member, you want to know something about Orlanth, -60 + 20 + 20 = -20%) then you don't have access to Orlanth or Odayla cult lore skill, but, you may have access to some "secret" or at least specific knowledge I think so and I don't think so. This level could be played with the rules : Once initiated, you have access to one cult spell (as you sacrifice 1POW) and to the basic secret cult lore... It is up to you to learn more, to sacrifice more, etcc.. If you don't invest a lot (1RP, 1 rune spell, 5% cult lore), you are between the lay member (0 RP, 0 cult lore maximl) status and the initiate level (3RP, 3 rune spells, 20% cult lore minimum ). But yes the space which is not cover is when you learn the first cult secret to become initiate. I gmize it as the time you spend to prepare your initiation nah, "2 wheels" is more appropriate

what is "good" with chaos for a gm is that anything could happen of course our glorantha may vary but in case of chaos, if you don't remove some canon story / cult / feature, you can create what you want, you are canon 😛

Morokanth are part of the covenant so they can be altered too however it should be individuals. I would not believe any religious praxian will accept that someone will alter enough Morokanth to obtain a herd. That is refusing Waha decision.

Maybe it is in the so expected gods of glorantha ? however I awlays have seen "shaman" in glorantha with two levels 1) shaman are those who have a fetch. 2) among them, shaman are those who lead a community cult the 2) implies that you may find shaman who are not here to bargain spirits for the good of a clan / tribe these shaman could create a community (a kind of religious temple / sect / what you want, source of a spirit cult, but outside of the clan) or could use their power for themselves, for money, for anything in fact so I see shamanism organization in glorantha (I don't know what is shamanism irl, so no pollution) with the same perspective than any cult. The practice, ritual, ceremonies are different, but the goal is the same : relationship with greater entity.

a great topic ! a) there is something important to keep in mind (something I discovered in this forum after more than 30 years of glorantha) : only praxian human being can be transformed as herd man. No sartarite, no lunar, no sun domer... Of course if these people are adopted into a praxian tribe... the covenant should apply. Of course their are rumors but rumors are sometimes true sometimes wrong. b) Another thing I consider true (but for a long time), Alter creature is not just a spell, it is a big change of the world, a kind of breach in the covenant. So it shoud be use with parsimony, for good reason. (In my glorantha, Waha will refuse to alter the creature if not) c) A last thing, praxians have access to allied spirit too. So the khan's mount can be awakened as a free mount wanting to follow her can (loyalty passion) or, and more probably, an allied spirit is bound to the no-awakened mount. When you (khan) are blessed by Waha, Waha would probably send you an allied spirit. You shoud not need to break the convenant to have a smart mount. now your questions : 1) awakened creatures are free creatures. They are not bound to anyone (but of course you have passion , love / loyalty / hate, so it is a kind of bound, but there is not the "mechanic" of bound spirit) 2) they are free creatures. They do their path as they want. And cults accept them or don't. So up to the gm, from my perspective. 3) Why a awakened herd man would be in a Morokanth clan ? I mean someone did something against the covenant, againt the herd so the wealth of the Morokanth. So there are a lot of option - Morokanth decide to awake the herd man. Then our guy has the status decided by the Morokanth. I consider weird, and maybe blasphemer the Morokanth who do something like that. What is the goal ? Now will the new herd man accept this status ? ==> a risky decision, the new man would try to escape, the gods would be angry - Other tribe decided to awake the herd man. Then the new man is now in a Morokanth place. His future seems to me obvious : back to the herd, new alter creature cast (of course there are exceptions) 4) For me the original tribe /clan which awakened the creature did it for a good reason, and it imply a choice of freedom. So the original clan would never sell the breature. However another clan / tribe could raid and capture it. A very bad clan will sell it to strangers. A standard clan then would consider it as a currency to obtain some favor. Somewhere this creature is most important than a standard clan member. Have sex and you have a new clan member. Break the covenant and you have a awakened beast. 5) politics and xenophobia (in my glorantha). politics because accepting this "person" implies some difficulty with his previous clan/tribe. xenophobia because that is so strange. What are his gods ? What want pol joni gods ? 6) because it is weird to accept this when you teach to your children that Morokanth deeds were trichery. Are you just a opportunist clan or do you have some proudness ? 7) herd men are not slave, they are "cows". Now any morokanth slave (aka not herd) should be treated as any praxian slave. You may have some difference between owners but for me it is more a personality difference than a race difference. However smart Morokanth shoud know that they are more different with any tribe than any human tribe. So they should be cautious and treat respectfully their slave (well respect... at least show they are good praxians) of course it is only my perspective. Don't take it as canon or not canon.

for sure, but your path (at least this one) is so ... I have no word... , I love it !

I agree with that sir, my difference is "very often" (for me : not often) and "the orlanthi praxian is Waha too" (for me the praxian could be Orlanthi, as you just say, OR Waha OR Storm bull OR Eiritha OR other depending on the different people)

I'm not on the same line than @svensson 🙂 Don't know who is the more " canon " however here is my glorantha (of course everything I write is in addition of the rules, test, exclusion, etc...): I consider four levels of religion membership 1) you are part of a community worshipping a pantheon ( one god can be found in several pantheon) 2) you may join a cult as lay member of a pantheon very easily. For a short period / opportunity or for a long time / devotion. As a lay member you may obtain some advantage (training, etc..) and you show your devotion by participating in ceremony and prayers (to ask help or to thank for help). Of course you may sacrifice what you want (but there are probably some minimum amount to give to not offend the god or the cult) 3) you may join a cult as initiate of a pantheon and learn some cult secrets (well, but is not really important in rqg, you can learn some rune spells too) The first initiation is "easy" as any community gives you the opportunity to join a cult around the rites of adulthood. The next initiations would be, in my glorantha, possible but more difficult. Your actual priest (first cult) may ask herself if you are still a god worshipper or if you want only stay in the cult for some social advantages, like an opportunist... Same for the new cult. Why this guy would like to join us ? Does he love the other god ? Will he love my god ? What if he has to choose ? etc... 4) you may now be a holy person (rune level). You probably don't have to prove anything, and your issue, if there is a issue, would be more with your god (that is a npc for me, not just a source of spell) than with your priest. but that the first dimension, there is another: the relationship between the two gods / cults (or more) - Some cults in the same pantheon are very closed : for example Issaries and Lankhor Mhy. Both explore to find things (artefact, antiquities, ...), both trade (knowledge), so here I don't see any difficulties - Some cults in the same pantheon are very far apart for examples Chalana Arroy and Humakt. One heal without violence, the other kill with violence (and style, of course). How the priests of the two cults will understand you want to stay in the first and join the second. Sounds weird, isn't it ? But it should be possible, if you can demonstrate the pertinence. Very rare but possible Maybe you may want to join a cult outside your pantheon - It could be a a spirit cult. Sounds weird for your primary cult but why not. After all it is just a little spirit, no shadow on our great god (of course if you are a water cult initiate and want to join oakfed cult... that's not really acceptable) - it could be a very strange cult, unknown by your community. Then you have to demonstrate there is no danger for your community, for your loyalties - and it could be a known cult of another pantheon, is this pantheon associated, in your community, with ennemy ? (I'm not talking about sun versus darkness, but more a local temporal issue : some orlanthi clan are friend with trolls, some are ennemies) You realy want to join our ennemy's god ? Are you a traitor ? Will the initiation change yourself, your soul ? (say you want to join aldrya or kyger litor , your soul will be changed) Not sure your first cult/god will recognize you Is your 'new' cult associated by the runes, goals, etc... ? For example an Issaries merchant want to join Argan Argar ? Probably easier to be accepted by both cults than trying to join Gorakiki so, in my glorantha, you will find few people initiate inseveral structured cults. Because they are structured, strong and need a lot from you (the 10% of course, but more than that, your loyalty, fidelity, faith) and any deviation is suspicious. More (not a lo however) may have some "alliance" with a local spirit, the nymph who is our neighbour, etc.. But you will find them, and of course pc would get the opportunity to join or would try to. Just they would have to demonstrate (deeds, favor, roleplay, ...) they are good reasons. two remarks then : 1) the tithes: anything you gain should be included as income, the swords you plunder, the cows you were gifted after a raid *, any benefits you make during a trade. Remember you can pay with money, but with anything acceptable for your cult (food, gear, etc) * except if the tithe is taken by the ring before the distribution. But if you are multi initiate, consider only your main local cult is already "paid" not the others 2) the creation : I will stop this post, but you can see here what I do for the skill. For the magic it is easy, you have 3 rune points and 5 spirit spell points to distribute it seems I have reach the lay member status level in @Joerg LM subcult. Hope I will not be cursed

I can understand some GMs want to create stats, no problem. (I would use stats for her if they were published, but i don't need them because that's jar eel, this awesome goddess avatar) the most important thing I don't understand is the concept of a GM cheating. People cheat to beat others in a competition (or a competitive game) But what is the interest for a GM to cheat ? supersede players ? why ? finishing the night with "hey hey, you are all dead, I m the winner" ? never played with someone like this for sure, and I would stop after one session, or maybe less if I meet a gm like that what is the difference between considering : a) the superhero has 300% skill : creation (with all the magics spent by her family during so many years - bless pregnancy, etc... - ) + xp + buffs from her followers + buffs because she is prepared and not surprised + heroic powers (next heroquesting rules). In addition, thousands of worshippers giving her enough heropoints to resist any spells, heroic abilities allowing her to multi cast in one round ten sever spirits, madness to every one in 100m radius and why not "duplicate body" super power (next heroquesting rules) and apply the rules versus b) considering there are very few chance to survive if the players decide, after the GM warns them, that is a suicide to attack her. a) is rule compliant so b) is a cheat ? And how to determine if 300% is the right number ? if she is able or not to sever spirits ? or to provoke madness and not lust or love ? How many bodies could be allowed ? don't know... If there is no official stat for a npc, I would not advice anyone to create stats, they could be accused of cheating because she is too powerful or not enough ! Is it a cheat to decide there are 3 broos in the next cave ? To decide the boss has 80% or 60% or explode when dead ? Is it a cheat to decide without any roll that if you jump from Kerofin you will die if you do nothing (DI, fly spell, any good idea) ? Is it a cheat if Orlanth himself -aka the gm- decides to save you because it was roleplayed as a pure devotion deed ? I don't understand where is the cheat and why a gm would like to "cheat". So for me it is not a cheat (with all the pejorative sense) but a gm style among others. Not better, not worse, than others. Just one style. Some like it, some are not confortable with it because there is no rule to support it, some dislike it. That is not an issue. That should not be an issue. That should be good food for thought

by the way, is the spike just from ground (0 to +6000km), or can we find it in the underworld (from -6000km to +6000 km) ?

yeah maybe I did a shortcut : in case of pure fight 1+2+3+4 for a quick fight OR 1+2+ her death, hope you will be able to not be wounded by her four weapons with your only 5% to parry / dodge them I wanted to propose other ways than succeeding a mechanical fight. The 1+2+3+4 is a fight with a psychological impact -so some option to stop the fight before a deadly end-, the second option is to find some smart ways to reduce her fighting powers (or to raise the pc chances to succeed a roll), the third option is more roleplay / social play than fighting absolument d'accord (you will learn french, my dear teacher 😉 )

Did he ? what if that's something else... something like an opportunity to go in the mundane world for some entity blocked by the compromise what if it is a spiritual alliance not seen by others ? what if the success was only due to a death rune at 100% (aka no more pc, just npc) what if it was some smart idea (or luck) Harreck had and not only brute force ? etc.. in all cases, I don't say it is impossible, I say it is very very hard, that is my 1+2+3+4 exception case. And I explained too there were other ways than fight. So my answer is not NO, it is "probably no, but you can try" Yes I understand in some sad cases, it was just a metaphor, don't want to challenge it 🙂

yes the lesson of the white bull campain is you can defeat her, but not with your weapons (or not only with your weapons) so if your pcs have not successfully heroquested to gain enough divine power to fight a goddess, well they are just ridiculous ants wanting to fight a human baby are 5-6 ants able to kill a human baby ? note that I would like (I don't need it) to have some sort of canon stats and powers for these people (Miss Eel, Harreck and co, is Argrath a shaman ? ar rune lord ? both ? what draconic power he has ?) just to define the "scale". but without it, in my glorantha / gm feeling : unprepared pc should not yet defeat her in fight except if 1) they succeeds to touch her (roll < 5, even if they have 150%, weapons , spells, anything) 2) they do a lot of damage ( something like at least 20 damage in 1 hit) at least 2 or 3 times (add one each time one pc is out) 3) they show some "lunar ennemy" power ( call air rune, use a big storm spell in the 2.) 4) one of them, "the hero", succeeds to intimidate her (augmented by devotion, hate lunar, any usefull passion) once the damage are done then she may run away. (edit/ to be clear it is not 1 or 2 or 3 or 4, it is 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4) another option is to find something to reduce her powers, even if you (or me) GM don't know her power. That would allow to reduce the 1) penalty or the 2) required damage minimum. In the white bull campaign, from my perspective, the true hero (the one who was the changemaker) is this insupportable 😛 esrolian Ty Kora Tek fashionista. Not the eternal Orlanthi ennemy, not the death bringer Humakti, not the chaos destroyer shaman Storm Buller. So any good idea from the pc, understanding who she is, what she loves, what she hates, what she fears could help. That is more roleplaying than roll a dice (even if personally, I would ask for a roll, but without penalty if the idea is nice) but for ridiculous pc (compared to her) the best way would be to seduce her (by charm, intelligence, courage or ...) Maybe after it, they may be teached some lunar illumination way, of course they get some Jar Eel devotion at 90% (or loyalty if you don't consider her as a goddess, or love if one player roleplay something like that, or a lot of different passions... I love passions) After some warnings before they decide anything, the pc should understand they will die (even if they have few opportunities to succeed, but they should not hope too much). Then it is up to them to decide to run away (gain fear lunar, fear Jar eel, lose honor if they have, ...) or decide to sacrifice themselves for their convictions. Because they are heroes, and heroes die heroically.

because brillant needs light, and a gold shieldwall with few spirit mp may offer some blindness (aka -75% penalty ?) to the opponents ? of course it is not raw, but is it really raw conflicting ?

not why, but when 🙂 if you read a lot of posts here, the issue is not a table desiring effectiveness. that is this "yelmic" notion of "you don't do/think what I expect, that sucks" which is challenged, not the choice of any table. There are other options because there are different gaming styles. And with some other gaming styles, cults design seems to me very appropriate / "eff-ective" to play As I said, a "low ranked" cult as written offers a lot of opportunities, when GM and players propose them.