Pocharngo vs. Primal Chaos

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Yes, the Vadeli are sociopaths, but Zzabur is every bit as sociopathic as the Vadeli.

You don't understand the difference between sociopathy and amorality.

Zzabur is largely amoral, at least with regards to non-Brithini, but does not come across as a sociopath. He is not particularly manipulative or deceitful, he is not impulsive, he preaches responsibility and care in your actions. 

[davecake]

11 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Agimori are people - they are one of the Praxian tribes, they include the Doraddi, they include half the Pygmies of Glorantha, and they also make up the population of one of the nations of the West,

It is a historical nomenclature problem from back when we only knew about Prax and Sartar, and so the only Agimori anyone knew were the one Praxian tribe. I generally refer to the unusual Agimori who make up the Praxian tribe as the Men-And-A-Half, and they differ from mainstream Agimori significantly. But they aren't the Agi, who are mythic beings. 

[Ali the Helering]

I am afraid that I have to disagree with the above reactions to my post. 

If a racial stat range falls significantly outside that of the baseline human I don't think of them as human.. Be they Reynold's Ultras or various Transhumans, Agimori or gern. 

Please note, as I said, no value judgement involved. In the case of the three non-gerns mentioned I would be inclined to say super human if pushed. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

For me he's complicated by the "bad things come to Pamaltela from the north" theory where he goes away and sends spirits and monsters back. That sounds like a cult that either collaborates with foreign forces or gets coopted. Of course there can be many Bolongo . . . there's also "his best known tale" of taking over the Artmali Empire through parody where foreigners are intimately involved. (Whirlwind people? Keraun's people or someone else?)

Bolongo was one of the Witnesses and has a major part in the creation of the world as we know it (a bad part, but a part), so I think of him as very native. Of course, the Trickster who does bad things cooperates with enemies sometimes - just like Eurmal does, for example. 

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

(Whirlwind people? Keraun's people or someone else?)

I would say Sikkanos. 

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Sociologically of course the mask is a very useful technology for expressing impulses that otherwise don't fit into the structure and one's everyday role.

Absolutely. It is also a universal aspect of Trickster.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Flaying also happens to be a key zzaburist trope as a colleague would say.

He does seem rather fond of it. Presumably of more significance than just a really creepy hobby. 

I think the 'book binding is really just a weird way of mask making so Zzabur is a kind of trickster' line of reasoning to be a real stretch though. 

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

can we trust anything he tells us about how awful this other people he calls the "vadeli" really are or were?

He doesn't appear to be lying about much else. The Vadeli sure do bug him, though. 

I'm sticking with my own theory about why, though - the Vadeli are the only people that he can't logically refute, and it drives him crazy. That most of their magic and power comes from disobeying him and going to forbidden places and learning forbidden things must also really bug him,. 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

28 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I am afraid that I have to disagree with the above reactions to my post. 

If a racial stat range falls significantly outside that of the baseline human I don't think of them as human.. Be they Reynold's Ultras or various Transhumans, Agimori or gern. 

Please note, as I said, no value judgement involved. In the case of the three non-gerns mentioned I would be inclined to say super human if pushed. 

Gern are nonhuman by definition. They aren't sentient; they are basically (deeply unsettling) cows.

Most Agimori don't fall outside baseline human! Agimori are just people. Men-and-a-Half are unusual because they are giants but the Agimori in the West are just... dudes with dark skin and kinky hair.

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

I think the 'book binding is really just a weird way of mask making so Zzabur is a kind of trickster' line of reasoning to be a real stretch though. 

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

It would be if that were my argument! 

I'm saying the blue gentleman who lives in the Tower is a follower of Vadel who has taken his place and wears him like a mask. I see him lying all the time. Our Gloranthas Will Vary however.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

That is the story where the Vadeli are part of the six tribes of Malkion, and where Vadel starts out as an agent of Zzabur.

Well, Viymorn at least. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Brithela story has the Vadeli as the original human inhabitants of Brithos/the West, pushed out of their inheritance by the upstart children of Malkion the Founder (and they are not descended from him in this story). After a period of genocide and expulsion, the Vadeli find or steal sorceries to counter Zzabur. The Blue, Red and Brown books of Zzabur happen here, too. So everything Zzabur stands for or enforces is regarded as evil - even basic social rules. It is part of their magic to resist the overpowering magics of Zzabur.

I certainly think it would be good if the history of that region could be a bit more sorted. I do tend to think that very old Western sources that are not represented in the material that made it in to RM or MSE probably did not make it because Greg changed his mind - much as I would love to know more about them. 

Bul ultimately, even if the Vadeli are oppressed peoples pushed out by Brithini cultural aggression - they are still a race of sociopaths. They don't get to say it was Zzaburs fault that they committed genocide against the Tadeniti, or set up a massive slave Empire, or got really into Chaos magic. 

[Ali the Helering]

9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Gern are nonhuman by definition. They aren't sentient; they are basically (deeply unsettling) cows.

Most Agimori don't fall outside baseline human! Agimori are just people. Men-and-a-Half are unusual because they are giants but the Agimori in the West are just... dudes with dark skin and kinky hair.

That explains it. I don't play in the West, only with the men-and-a-half, who are well outside baseline norms. 

However, to return to the original issue, I still hold that Ogres were once human, but are no longer.  They have been warped by practise and faith into ogres. 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Ogres are humans with a chaos rune, that's the entire point of ogres.

The grayskins of Dorastor are humans with a chaos rune. The ogres are descendants of Cacodemon, which is why they worship that entity. Both species are sufficiently speciated that I would make them a species rather than a race.

Yes, they can interbreed with their food, and often do so because the half-breeds may hear the call of the divine/devilish ancestor and grow up to be one of their number.

The bestiary mentions their human origin. But then Tusk Riders have a human origin in the past, too.

 

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The entire point of it is cannibalism and incest to steal and intensify power of the bloodline - but it's a human bloodline, no matter how corrupt. The Red Cow clan introduction has an entire bit about this...

I disagree. It is a much-diluted ogre blood line trying to breed back to ancestral glory, hiding inside a human bloodline.

The Coming Storm covers the ogre realization of male offspring nicely, but fails to convey how an awakening female ogre would fare in her initiation, and how she might be able to escape getting caught.

Perhaps fae changelings are a good comparison for the ogre heritage hiding in mixed breed offspring?

 

If you want human cannibals, look at the Cannibal Cult of Prax. In my Glorantha at least, ogres are a humanoid chaos species.

 

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

IIRC (no books in front of me) they have different stats to humans. Which makes them no-human in the same way gern and Agimori are non-human.  Not a value judgement, simply the way they are. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Wait, Agimori aren't human?

Did you mean Agitori (the immortal ones)?

I suppose he meant Men-and-a-Half, who are fringe human. Their magical (Fire) nature makes them somewhat different from normal agimori, and their strict endogamy makes speculations about their degree of speciation difficult.

Doraddi are human in any aspect. Praxian Men-and-a-Half are quite different.

 

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

uhhh maybe you mean Agi. Agimori are people

So are Vadeli, Brithini, Grayskins, Cursed Telmori, Kitori Shapeshifters and Tusk Riders. And Ducks. Even Newtlings are people.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

- they are one of the Praxian tribes,

The Praxian Men-and-a-Half are a breed apart from the other Agimori. While they are mortal drinkers, they manage to retain most characteristics of the original Agi or Agitorani.

No Praxian Man-and-a-Half will contemplate a dark-skinned Doraddi or Pithdaran as possible marriage partner. They might (might!) consider some of the extra-large city dwellers of Laskal, although they probably have strayed too far with their soft, sedentary lifestyle.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

they include the Doraddi, they include half the Pygmies of Glorantha, and they also make up the population of one of the nations of the West, having arrived by boat to fight (apparently) Nysalor.

Agimori is also how the race of the multi-hued Teleosans is described, and all the Thinobutan-descended humans of coastal Pamaltela are of "Agimori race" even though they don't (necessarily) share any ancestors with either the Doraddi or the Men-and-a-Half (if they managed to remain pure-blooded - probably harder to do in Thinokos or on the Kumanku Isles, but feasible in Maslo or Kimos).

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

And they represent the indigenous inhabitants of Pamaltela. Saying Pamaltelans are nonhuman would uhhh not be a good look.

You're being overly agitated about this admittedly imprecise use of the term.

Most ogres appear to be of wareran appearance, because that's what their human (western human?) ancestors were. The RQG bestiary ties their origin to that of the Brithini and Vadeli. Possibly closer to the latter, but either side experienced their all-time lows and Chaos temptation.

 

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is a terrible way to determine if someone is human, because stats are relative. inbreeding and Chaos features of the cult change them but don't remove their humanity. also, stats change based on gear and power levels, which ogres gain by eating people...

Cacodemon ancestry is a feasible way to determine an alternative to humanity, though. In D&D terms, ogres would be tieflings, not humans.

Waertagi are clearly Wareran, but I would place them in a species of their own - at least a subspecies of a subspecies (the "Brithini" as a term for the last remnants of the original people of Malkion). They are as much a species of merfolk as they are human. (It is unclear where Waertag found his wives - his father Malkion was a demigod of Storm and Sea, his mother was a Waertain niiad like his paternal grandmother.)

Tusk Riders are as human as ogres.

Full shape-changer Kitori aren't really human, either.

Cursed Telmori are were-creatures, even though their Hsunchen ancestors were human-shaped sapient animals. Lapsed (civilized) Hsunchen are fully human as they lose the privileges of human-shaped sapient animals.

Ducks aren't humans, even though their ancestors might have been at some point in Godtime.

Deri aren't humans. Their ancestor was, before Eurmal killed and then multiplied him.

All of these are people.

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Tusk Riders are as human as ogres.

Tusk Riders are technically both trolls and humans, a result of a bizarre curse on an early Orlanthi named Arim for neglecting Ernalda. They're quite... unhinged but various troll nations actually keep ambassadorships to them at the Ivory Plinth because they love mercenary work and are unaffected by the sun.

Kitori are also humans who have been trollified, although they are described as "not human, nor troll, but Kitori". The Sun Domers loooooooooooove to keep them as the lowest slaves (their children born into slavery, and kept naked and used as pack animals) almost more than they love to whip themselves and deny themselves sex and food.

Ducks and Rinliddi are kin! Distant kin, as the Manimati weren't waterfowl.

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The grayskins of Dorastor are humans with a chaos rune. The ogres are descendants of Cacodemon, which is why they worship that entity. Both species are sufficiently speciated that I would make them a species rather than a race.

I think that while the majority of Genertelan ogres are descendants of Cacodemon, there are examples of ogres who are not, including the ogres in Gaumata's Vision. IMG, the majority of ogres in Genertela are descended from Cacodemon, but the majority of ogres in Pamaltela are descended from succubi. (also, while Cacodemon figures in there somewhere, the ogres who appear spontaneously in the Red Cow are descendants of Ragnaglar)

[soltakss]

On 8/7/2019 at 1:35 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm guessing different rules for different kinds of entities, perhaps even societies

Genert must have a whole tribe of succubi, having mated with his mother, daughters and grandaughters. I don't know if he mated with his sisters, if he had any sisters. 

Wasn't Asrelia a daughter of Gata? As far as I know, Genert did not mate with any of Asrelia/Ty Kor Tek/Ernalda/Maran Gor/Voria/Babeester Gor. However, presumably Esrola was a Land Goddess and daughter of Genert, so he'd have mated with her and she seems to be connected with the Three Pairs of Earth Goddesses.

In my Glorantha, the Earth Pantheon either follows Genert and his children or the Six Goddesses and their children, but very rarely both together. I see them as being rivals in most things.

[soltakss]

On 8/8/2019 at 2:56 PM, Joerg said:

Ogres don't usually practice cannibalism - at least I have seen nothing to indicate that ogres devour other ogres regularly, or as the result of a victory in intra-racial disputes. Ogres prey on humans. That's similar to chimpanzees preying on monkeys.

Ogres see themselves as the First Humans, or the Best Humans and see other humans as being like them but inferior. They eat other humans and treat it as cannibalism.

On 8/8/2019 at 4:26 PM, Ali the Helering said:

IIRC (no books in front of me) they have different stats to humans. Which makes them no-human in the same way gern and Agimori are non-human.  Not a value judgement, simply the way they are. 

Gern are not humans, but Agimori are definitely humans. So are Brithini, Vadeli and Waertagi. All are full humans.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by soltakss

[Ali the Helering]

15 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Ogres see themselves as the First Humans, or the Best Humans and see other humans as being like them but inferior. They eat other humans and treat it as cannibalism.

Gern are not humans, but Agimori are definitely humans. So are Brithini, Vadeli and Waertagi. All are full humans.

 

 

As per my earlier post, I was referring to the men-and-a-half, not other Agimori. 

I don't play in the West, but my reading is that if their stats lie outside base humanity they are people, certainly, but not human. 

[soltakss]

9 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

As per my earlier post, I was referring to the men-and-a-half, not other Agimori. 

So was I.

10 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I don't play in the West, but my reading is that if their stats lie outside base humanity they are people, certainly, but not human. 

I don't think that is the case. All those humans can breed with each other, they look the same and are only slightly different. 

Tusk Riders, now I can accept they are different. 

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So was I.

I don't think that is the case. All those humans can breed with each other, they look the same and are only slightly different. 

Tusk Riders, now I can accept they are different. 

How interesting!  Since they are but part Uz, I would have thought them very likely to be able to breed with humans. 

Divergence by cultural norms or isolation are quite likely to result in lower rates of fertility.  Gonna hafta go check now, dammit! 😜

[Sir_Godspeed]

The species concept seems pretty useless in Glorantha. I mean, does all this mean that Storm Age Helerings weren't human? Durevings? Artmali? It starts getting pretty pointless pretty quickly, and we essentially end up applying an etic/non-diegetic concept (human in s naturalistic sense) to an emic/diegetic perspective.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

I brought these examples up as humanoids with human descent who had magical proof that they were no longer human but something else, much like ogres.

The Ergeshi are a special case, similar to latent ogres among the Tormakting lineage of the Red Cow clan. But then, initiation makes it clear whether a Tormakting awakens as a human or as an ogre (or, judging from the variation on male initiation with all the lethal options where the initiee gets killed, not at all).

 

16 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Tusk Riders are technically both trolls and humans, a result of a bizarre curse on an early Orlanthi named Arim for neglecting Ernalda.

Aram ya Udram (Yu Adariam in some ancient sources) was the human member of the Unity Council at the Dawn, and his people, the Aramites, were fully human at the time.

At the time of the Machine Wars, the Aramite hero Varankol the Mangler had tusks much like the Tusker boars he and his people rode on. This physiognomy was the reason why they were called half-trolls. A troll ancestry has never been proven or corroborated by the Uz.

16 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They're quite... unhinged but various troll nations actually keep ambassadorships to them at the Ivory Plinth because they love mercenary work and are unaffected by the sun.

It is quite lethal to be posted as permanent ambassador to the Ivory Plinth, even for uz. The Tusk Riders aren't really picky when it comes to providing sacrifices to the darkness demon that aided Aram in overcoming Gouger, the God Pig sent by Ernalda to punish (or test) the humans who had neglected her worship.

By the criteria of the dragonewts and their dragon rescuers, the (surviving) Aramites of the Stinking Forest were counted among the Inhuman Occupators of Dragon Pass after the Dragonkill. If they had leaders steeped in EWF draconic lore, they would have lost them in the 1042 mass utuma/assassination of the Wyrmfriends and speakers of Auld Wyrmish.

 

The Orlanthi named Arim also managed to win over the bearer of Kero Fin's Necklace, but he lived around 1330 years after the Dawn and founded the Kingdom of Tarsh. No known connection to the Tusk Riders.

 

16 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Kitori are also humans who have been trollified, although they are described as "not human, nor troll, but Kitori". The Sun Domers loooooooooooove to keep them as the lowest slaves (their children born into slavery, and kept naked and used as pack animals) almost more than they love to whip themselves and deny themselves sex and food.

Full Kitori are shapechangers able to take on human, troll or dehori shape. The Ergeshi slaves of the Sun Domers are "frozen" in their human shape and have been cut off their Darkness heritage by hostile Sun Domer magic. It isn't quite clear whether they are fully human or whether they only register as humanoid when targeted by sorcery making that distinction.

There is no information whether Sun Dome County has human slaves in addition to Ergeshi slaves, and if so, whether they interbreed.

The Kitori were tolerated to cross the Crossline and to participate in the Troll Wars during the Inhuman Occupation.

 

But then, the Puppeteers (predominantly humans) were able to enter their old stages during the Inhuman Occupation, too - but they probably used their Illusionary Troupe magics to avoid physically crossing the Crossline or Deathline. Another factor may have been that they never claimed the land as theirs.

 

16 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Ducks and Rinliddi are kin! Distant kin, as the Manimati weren't waterfowl.

Herons have residually webbed feet and stalk waters. They are in the same family as Pelicans, so I would class them as water fowl.

The Manimati trace their descent to the Suvarians, who claim to have hatched from a clutch of eggs of their great spirit Surensliba, the Heron Goddess. The Suvarian wetlands once reached from Esel River in Carmania all the way to the Oslir Valley, but the eruption of the Yolp Volcanoes cut off the westernmost marshes in the Storm Age.

There is no evidence that the durulz of Maniria have any connection to Suvaria. The Brithini remember an invasion by Solkathi that carried "Beakies" with it, but that tidal wave (nothing to do with Lunar tides) was boiled, and none of the beaked passengers carried into Brithini seas survived. There is a possibility that these were keets carried off the East, and that some of them were deposited in Maniria, but again there is no proof for this as the origin of the durulz.

I don't think that the Manimati have any special ties to Vrimak other than recognizing him as the Imperial Beast. The Kestinliddi folk worship/breed hawks, quails and flightless augners, but no water fowl.

I don't recall seeing any duck Yelmalians, although I know of at least one fan scenario with an Elmali duck. (And no, @Quackatoa, this is not a challenge.)

 

14 hours ago, davecake said:

I think that while the majority of Genertelan ogres are descendants of Cacodemon, there are examples of ogres who are not, including the ogres in Gaumata's Vision. IMG, the majority of ogres in Genertela are descended from Cacodemon, but the majority of ogres in Pamaltela are descended from succubi. (also, while Cacodemon figures in there somewhere, the ogres who appear spontaneously in the Red Cow are descendants of Ragnaglar)

Big surprise there - Cacodemon is a grandson of Ragnaglar. It should be fairly hard for a descendant of Cacodemon not to be descended from Ragnaglar.

The Tormakting variation on the Initiation Quest only applies to males. I wonder why the females were omitted. Is it because any females born with the trait are likely to marry out of the clan (and thereby the bloodline), diluting the trait too much for it to re-surface?

I suppose that an ogre lineage can be created by procreating while possessed by Cacodemon (or at least a fiend). Given the superior physical abilities of ogres, the Chaos-leaning survivors of northern Pamaltela may have undergone that procedure despite the known disadvantages (but then, human sacrifice was on the table regularly anyway, so why not on the dinner table?).

[Ali the Helering]

There have been some interesting studies recently regarding interracial pregnancies, indicating some difficulties relating to pelvic size, differing rates of prenatal diabetes and blood group incompatibilities. 

RW rather than Glorantha, yet interesting. 

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

I think that while the majority of Genertelan ogres are descendants of Cacodemon

Are Ogres descended from Cacodemon? They worship him and accepted a part of his power to strengthen then I didn't think they were his descendants. I suppose some might have incarnated Fiends to breed with female Ogres, to strengthen individual family lines and seem to remember that happening in a scenario somewhere, but didn't think that Ogres descended from Cacodemon.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Ogres see themselves as the First Humans, or the Best Humans and see other humans as being like them but inferior. They eat other humans and treat it as cannibalism.

I disagree. The First Humans origin is held as a belief by "at least one Western sect" (of Malkioni? of ogres?), but not by all ogres. The Cacodemon ancestry on the other hand is widely acknowledged, even though there are many documented cases of ogres joining other Chaotic cults, and even non-chaotic ones.

(There are no known cases of ogres in the Storm Bull cult, though. Zorak Zoran might be possible.)

IMO ogres can satisfy their appetite by consuming any man rune species. A well connected ogre might be able to survive on a diet of food trollkin or ducks. A diet of newtling tails won't do, though.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Gern are not humans, but Agimori are definitely humans. So are Brithini, Vadeli and Waertagi. All are full humans.

All are able to breed with humans or other fringe humans, and able to produce viable mixed offspring that may in some cases be counted among the fringe humans, in others with the ordinary humans.

We know of the marriage of an ageless Brithini to a Seshnegi emperor. Their offspring was human, no longer ageless.

Waertagi interbred with dronari in Nolos, if the greenish skin of one of those palanquin-bearers is in any way relevant. After a few generations of dilution, the merman heritage and the need to stay by the ocean side may have been bred out of that lineage. On the other hand, individuals initiated as Waertagi are a kind of merfolk, and are recognized by Sea entities as kin. Normal Malkioni aren't, and neither are cross-breeds with non-Malkioni (like e.g. Masloi on Edrenlin, or Pelaskites in Kethaela).

If Vadeli have offspring with normal humans, nothing has been reported on them. I would suggest that both Brithini and Vadeli would break caste obligations when fornicating with anyone but members of their own caste (or in case of the Brithini, the Menena caste).

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

The "Ogres regard themselves as True People" reminds me of this article from the SCP Foundation. It's delighfully creep.

http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1788
A voice-acted version for those so inclined: