Imagining Glorantha

[Qizilbashwoman]

Biskop Terbaru doesn't need to tell Indonesians who Bilal is. But you, a Christian, need context. It's not a random story! But you'd never know that if you watched the film only.

[Sir_Godspeed]

26 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But you, a Christian

For all I know Bill might be a Christian and you know this from prior conversations I don't know about, but otherwise please let's not assume each other's religious views (unless you mean in a wider cultural sense, which makes sense, but isn't quite clear). 

I personally appreciate the context though, my knowledge of the early Islamic ummah is very rudimentary, and as you mention, Bilal's identity is assumed to be known by the viewers.

Anyway - I'll be on the lookout for Bilal, even the interesting setting and story aside, the animation looks gorgeous (especially the backgrounds/environment). 

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

For all I know Bill might be a Christian and you know this from prior conversations I don't know about, but otherwise please let's not assume each other's religious views (unless you mean in a wider cultural sense, which makes sense, but isn't quite clear).

culturally

i mean like in the Jewish sense of "goyish". he might be a devout pagan but he's from the larger Christian culture that pervades the lives of all persons who aren't Jews or Muslims or Hindus, etc. Christianormativity, whatever you want to call it. it's inescapable. you can be raised atheist and you're still basically coming at the world with a Christianate viewpoint (just ask any Jew who has had to deal with online atheists - look at the brouhaha about Bernie Sanders' alleged unjewishness as presented in the goyish media, in comparison to the Jewish media, which finds this allegation simultaneously offensive and laughable in its confusion over what makes a Jew)

apologies if this was unclear. i have no idea what Bill's religion looks like, except he's not Muslim

Edited February 17, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

@Bill the barbarian, this is true. I have seen the film and what @Qizilbashwoman wrote above as a spoiler was still new to me! 

It'll all make sense to Muslims (I got that), but otherwise would go over your head. As per what often happens with foreign films, you usually lack all of the cultural contexts to fully understand and appreciate.

So it's like ...  an anti-spoiler?

Not IN the film, but context so the alien viewer can better understand what IS in the film?

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

culturally

i mean like in the Jewish sense of "goyish". he might be a devout pagan but he's from the larger Christian culture that pervades the lives of all persons who aren't Jews or Muslims or Hindus, etc. Christianormativity, whatever you want to call it. it's inescapable. you can be raised atheist and you're still basically coming at the world with a Christianate viewpoint (just ask any Jew who has had to deal with online atheists - look at the brouhaha about Bernie Sanders' alleged unjewishness as presented in the goyish media, in comparison to the Jewish media, which finds this allegation simultaneously offensive and laughable in its confusion over what makes a Jew)

apologies if this was unclear. i have no idea what Bill's religion looks like, except he's not Muslim

No worries. For personal reasons, I at least prefer a distinction being made between personal beliefs and cultural identity, although of course this isn't about me, just hopefully a general courtesy. As I mentioned, the info you shared is still valuable.

[Bill the barbarian]

I kind of like watching my films without context (the movie's point of view suffices for me, thought at the end I often do my research (such a geek). I just figure, the directors knows what they are doing and I let him or her (not enough of her... yet), but maybe that is me. In any case now having seen the film (rest assured, no spoilers are coming), it is great. The character arc is good, the animation is great. A mutant Roger Ebert might give it three thumbs up.

Qizilbashwoman, I must say I did not read all of your post. As soon as my spoiler-sense™ began tingling I quit reading and always will. Hate spoilers with a passion, so I will set phasers on ignore the moment I suspect such, Seeing as it is hard to read a post on another page and not lose the train of thought with this software, I will have to take your word that there are no spoilers and only context. Pardon my paranoia but again, I get a whiff of spoilers and out comes my patent pending ignore-a-phaser ™ 

Conclusion, context is not required, the movie stands on its own quite nicely.(And I still think it does a good job of bringing an aspect of The Oasis People of Prax to life, for me).

Cheers

[Ian Absentia]

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i mean like in the Jewish sense of "goyish".

Hmm.  It's best to not go bandying terms like that about.

!i!

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

Hmm.  It's best to not go bandying terms like that about.

!i!

? i literally speak yiddish it means "not jewish"

di goyishe velt "the non-Jewish world" is the opposite of di yidishe velt "the Jewish world" (or "the Yiddish world", in some contexts")

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

? i literally speak yiddish it means "not jewish"

di goyishe velt "the non-Jewish world" is the opposite of di yidishe velt "the Jewish world" (or "the Yiddish world", in some contexts")

I've seen some right-leaning people spread around the idea that it's a slur, possibly to get in on the hot oppression ticket, if you get what I mean. 

EDIT: By which I mean many people might have picked up an incorrect meaning of the word through cultural osmosis regardless of their beliefs. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I've seen some right-leaning people spread around the idea that it's a slur, possibly to get in on the hot oppression ticket, if you get what I mean. 

they can stuff it up their arsehole, though?

[Bill the barbarian]

This is entirely off topic folk... I have no idea how any of this has anything to do with Imagining Glorantha.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

they can stuff it up their arsehole, though?

Given that it's a neutral descriptor on par with "foreigner", I'd think so! 

EDIT: This is not to say that terms can't be multivalent. Even the term "foreigner" can be used in a pejorative way. Ian's lived experiences are his own, fair dues.

Hopefully this thread doesn't completely derail (which I realize I'm partly guilty of) and we can get back to sourcing out interesting visual references for imagining Glorantha.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

This is entirely off topic folk... I have no idea how any of this has anything to do with Imagining Glorantha.

Thread drift is natural and unavoidable. I'm sure we'll correct soon enough, unless someone has some pressing comments.

[Bill the barbarian]

Not the reason I resurrected this needed thread, in any case.

[Jeff]

Please return to the topic of the thread or I will lock it down.

[Austin]

59 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Please return to the topic of the thread or I will lock it down.

PICTURES!

Pictures pictures pictures. That's back on topic!

I got my hands on a book collecting most (maybe all?) of the prints from Edward Curtis's The North American Indian some time back, and I really enjoy leafing through it for visual inspiration on Prax. Went online to look for a few samples to share here, and it looks like a good portion of the archive is available to view on an official site: https://www.edwardscurtis.com/

 

[Austin]

On 8/27/2019 at 1:26 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Bahubali, an indian myth made into a movie a couple of years ago, was recommended here at BRP central (can not remember by who) as a great view of a Heortland super hero. A little (okay, a lot at times) cheesy and over the top in a Gloranthan way, one can expect a Bollywood sized song with the whole cast and all the extras to break out, but I agree. It is worth a watch for someone trying to immerse themselves in Gloranthan goodness.

I've seen Bahubali in the time since, and oh my gods yes! It's great fun, and has led me to attempt shoving it down friends/players' throats as "This is what Sartar/Esrolia looks like!" Which isn't exactly helpful since our game is in Pavis/Prax, but besides the point...

It may be my favorite new movie I watched in 2019, and that includes both Avengers: Endgame and Detective Pikachu.

[Bill the barbarian]

 

3 minutes ago, Crel said:

I've seen Bahubali in the time since, and oh my gods yes! It's great fun

It is a blast, nice to see a Super Hero movie from another culture. This was a good deal of the fun of watching Bilal.

Thanks for the thread Crel, I hope it does not disappear again too soon.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

PICTURES!

Pictures pictures pictures. That's back on topic!

I got my hands on a book collecting most (maybe all?) of the prints from Edward Curtis's The North American Indian some time back, and I really enjoy leafing through it for visual inspiration on Prax. Went online to look for a few samples to share here, and it looks like a good portion of the archive is available to view on an official site: https://www.edwardscurtis.com/

 

A few years back I was at Taos Pueblo for a 24 Nation Pow-Wow. There were some Sacred Time rituals going on, although I was a lay member at best.

[Bill the barbarian]

That sounds like an honour.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

That sounds like an honour.

More total random dumb luck. I was visiting the Pueblo with my wife and kids, and my kids were talking to an old lady, providing her with much entertainment. She asked if we were here for the Pow-Wow that was going on. I told I had no idea one was going and she said you need to take your kids there, and gave us directions down a little dirt road one the reservation. We headed out, and got to attend a week-long festival, with two dozen tribes, which Is one part dance competition, one part religious ceremony, and one part market - just like a Gloranthan Holy Day. Thousands of people, almost all tribes members and local ranchers and farmers, with a sprinkling of outsiders. Absolutely incredible event. 

The following year we were at Canyon de Chelly near Spider Rock, when some young Navajos asked me about my Chaosium t-shirt. Turns out they were big fans of Call of Cthulhu and offered to guide me down to the canyon floor (you need to have a Navajo guide if you want to go down to the bottom of the canyon). I wanted to take them up on their offer, but my wife is desperately afraid of heights. Alas - but that's the power of the Chaosium Dragon!

[Austin]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The following year we were at Canyon de Chelly near Spider Rock, when some young Navajos asked me about my Chaosium t-shirt. Turns out they were big fans of Call of Cthulhu and offered to guide me down to the canyon floor (you need to have a Navajo guide if you want to go down to the bottom of the canyon).

Coincidentally, I'm presently reading a book about the indigenous people of that area, Pueblo Children of the Earth Mother by Thomas Mails. Again, wonderful resource for my imagination in Prax due to Mails' B&W sketches of various material culture objects. Votive offerings, baskets, pottery, and so on.

I was wondering, though, do any cultures in Glorantha make and live in structures like the pit houses/cliff house of the Anasazi? Since the Praxians themselves are nomads, my mind first went to maybe oasis people or the people of the Garden pre-Earthfall, but neither of those felt like a good fit.

All the site sketches have given me an itch to do something with a cliff house.

[Jeff]

Just now, Crel said:

Coincidentally, I'm presently reading a book about the indigenous people of that area, Pueblo Children of the Earth Mother by Thomas Mails. Again, wonderful resource for my imagination in Prax due to Mails' B&W sketches of various material culture objects. Votive offerings, baskets, pottery, and so on.

I was wondering, though, do any cultures in Glorantha make and live in structures like the pit houses/cliff house of the Anasazi? Since the Praxians themselves are nomads, my mind first went to maybe oasis people or the people of the Garden pre-Earthfall, but neither of those felt like a good fit.

All the site sketches have given me an itch to do something with a cliff house.

Plenty of cultures make pit houses - and they were probably pretty common in the First Age. Weaving houses, with their sunken floors and shrines to the Earth deities, are an echo of the practice. Plenty of Earth temples are reminiscent of a Kiva - note that Ernalda temples have their shrines and sacred space underground, like a Kiva with a structure above ground.

[Austin]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Plenty of cultures make pit houses - and they were probably pretty common in the First Age. Weaving houses, with their sunken floors and shrines to the Earth deities, are an echo of the practice.

There's lots of mention of wattle-and-daub or jacal work, but what I was really curious about was stuff like Mesa Verde or Chaco Canyon.

[Lordabdul]

(Lordabdul quietly searches pictures of kiva, pit houses, and weaving houses... takes notes... nods, and is very thankful for this topic)