Spell boosting with magic points

[GAZZA]

48 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

This mix of "stackable spells", boosting with MPs, custom spells that have MP-based spending, across two (excluding Sorcery here) magic systems (and excluding duration considerations!) is a major source of confusion, as far as I can tell. I know I was confused about all this for at least a few months. I wish these mechanics had been cleaned up and unified around fewer standard concepts.

Indeed. I'm still not sure how Summon is supposed to work. I'm treating it as a 1 point spell that you boost with MPs, but I'm not under any misapprehension that this is anything but a house rule on my behalf (albeit one based on the RQ3 version of the spell).

[Lordabdul]

33 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

I'm still not sure how Summon is supposed to work.

Which Summon spell?

[GAZZA]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Which Summon spell?

Spirit magic version, Summon (Entity), RQG pp 265.

Edited May 19, 2020 by GAZZA

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/19/2020 at 3:46 AM, GAZZA said:

Indeed. I'm still not sure how Summon is supposed to work. I'm treating it as a 1 point spell that you boost with MPs, but I'm not under any misapprehension that this is anything but a house rule on my behalf (albeit one based on the RQ3 version of the spell).

At least it’s also Chaosium’s official house rule (cf. Jason in the Core Rules Q thread).

Edited May 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Ulla Taalasmaa]

On 5/15/2020 at 5:07 AM, davecake said:

Yes. This is not in the rules. Some people believe it, but there is no reason to think it is. 

Of course, if you want it as a house rule, go ahead. 

This was in the rules.

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

This reading was always there. I mostly assumed that the intent wasn’t there (it is of course possible to write a rule that says something other than you intended, and then you have to get into discussion like the death of the rules designer).

It’s very interesting that this reading now has official support, although the rules QA thread is such a mess of personal interpretations and outright house rules that it can’t really be said to be official.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[GAZZA]

There were at least a couple of those "you have answered your own question" responses where I had to scratch my head and say, "err... so, what was the answer then?"

[Akhôrahil]

We have an official ruling. "Defensive boosting" is official, but separate from "boosting for effect". I'm almost as surprised as the rest of you.

 

[GAZZA]

Yeah I'm basically going to chalk that one up for another "fair enough but not iMG" official ruling. It isn't the first. I doubt it will be the last.

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Yeah I'm basically going to chalk that one up for another "fair enough but not iMG" official ruling. It isn't the first. I doubt it will be the last.

I like it in principle, but I'm concerned about the balance issue. Slapping an Extended Shield 10 on you for a season was bad enough before, but at least it could be dispelled by someone else at your power level. Add 60 MPs worth of boosting, and that Shield stays up.

Similarly, if you pre-cast a big Sword Trance, it's probably worth using 10 MP or so for defensive boosting.

[Ulla Taalasmaa]

I am a little surprised that so many people thought that the magic points are not allowed to use  to boost spells  harder to dispel or dismiss. Where had you come to the notion that it is not possible, even though it read in the rulebook.

[Ulla Taalasmaa]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I like it in principle, but I'm concerned about the balance issue. Slapping an Extended Shield 10 on you for a season was bad enough before, but at least it could be dispelled by someone else at your power level. Add 60 MPs worth of boosting, and that Shield stays up.

Similarly, if you pre-cast a big Sword Trance, it's probably worth using 10 MP or so for defensive boosting.

Shield 10 is hard to be dispelled. You must use 10 rune points and you don't know how big the shield is. What if you use 10 points and your opponent has an 11 point shield. A better option to do yourself shield 10 or some offensive spell boost with magic points. Sunspear can act as a shield 10 against  without a boost. And I think the problem is more the goodness of the shield and the sword trance than this rule.

It’s a good thing that you can protect yourself if you fly with spells. Otherwise, all flying spells would be dropped to death.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Ulla Taalasmaa

[Akhôrahil]

32 minutes ago, Ulla Taalasmaa said:

I am a little surprised that so many people thought that the magic points are not allowed to use  to boost spells  harder to dispel or dismiss. Where had you come to the notion that it is not possible, even though it read in the rulebook.

It was never possible in any earlier edition, so I didn't think it would be added (the designers like to stick hard to RQ2), and when it was brought up, it was shot down by Jeff. Although like you say, strictly going by the most likely interpretation of the text itself, the best interpretation is probably that it should work.

[Ulla Taalasmaa]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It was never possible in any earlier edition, so I didn't think it would be added (the designers like to stick hard to RQ2), and when it was brought up, it was shot down by Jeff. Although like you say, strictly going by the most likely interpretation of the text itself, the best interpretation is probably that it should work.

Ok. That explains it. I remembered that the 3rd edition would have had a similarly worded rule to boost spells with magic points.

[David Scott]

I'm wondering where everyones' adventurers are getting all these Rune points and magic points from. I've got a few with 5 rune points and maybe 25 magic points with a crystal. No-one has even has shield yet.

Of all the games I've run and participated in (private, convention, etc) I've never seen this level of points used. Although last year I did have a Humakti cast Sword Trance boosted with 5 magic points.

I'd like to see some of these adventurers and hear what kind of high power games you are running where these rules become important.

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm wondering where everyones' adventurers are getting all these Rune points and magic points from. I've got a few with 5 rune points and maybe 25 magic points with a crystal. No-one has even has shield yet.

Of all the games I've run and participated in (private, convention, etc) I've never seen this level of points used. Although last year I did have a Humakti cast Sword Trance boosted with 5 magic points.

I'd like to see some of these adventurers and hear what kind of high power games you are running where these rules become important.

Crystals are common as dirt in published adventures, and if you’re going to cast a hugely boosted spell during downtime, you can borrow everyone’s. A couple of hundred MPs shouldn’t be a problem for a party with some experience and loot. MPs are also trivially regained, so the opportunity cost is minimal.

You can start with 9 Rune Points if your GM allows older starting characters, and you could expect 2 more per year. 10 RPs isn’t a lot in a medium-length campaign. As soon as you hit Rune Levels, your allied spirit starts to help out and will eventually almost double your Rune Points (it has the same progression you do). And this is long before we get to the Great Argrath Campaign and hero-levels.

Even just three Rune Points and 70 MPs can net an all-day Sword Trance at +500% as a spell that takes 22 points of dispelling to get rid of.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Crystals are common as dirt in published adventures, and if you’re going to cast a hugely boosted spell during downtime, you can borrow everyone’s.

A couple of hundred MPs shouldn’t be a problem for a party with some experience and loot. MPs are also trivially regained, so the opportunity cost is minimal.

My current group has 6 players, 2 have crystals, 15+12+18+15+10+13+ 2 have crystals, 10, 11 = 89 magic points. So at most they could boost with their own 18 magic points plus 21. My players don't really game this way. 

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You can start with 9 Rune Points if your GM allows older starting characters, and you could expect 2 more per year. 10 RPs isn’t a lot in a medium-length campaign.

This is how you play in your games? Starting with 9 points, how long did it take to get to 10 Rune points. Most of my players are still building their POW up.

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

As soon as you hit Rune Levels, your allied spirit starts to help out and will eventually almost double your Rune Points (it has the same progression you do). And this is long before we get to the Great Argrath Campaign and hero-levels.

No one is a Rune Level in my game yet. How long did it take in your games?

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even just three Rune Points and 70 MPs can net an all-day Sword Trance at +500% as a spell that takes 22 points of dispelling to get rid of.

Do you have characters with this level of magic? When have you used a +500% Sword trance? has anyone?

[Akhôrahil]

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

My current group has 6 players, 2 have crystals, 15+12+18+15+10+13+ 2 have crystals, 10, 11 = 89 magic points. So at most they could boost with their own 18 magic points plus 21. My players don't really game this way.

Sure, but if they did, you agree that it's good if the rules cover it and don't break down?

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

This is how you play in your games? Starting with 9 points, how long did it take to get to 10 Rune points. Most of my players are still building their POW up.

It was what I did in one campaign, since some PCs would start out older and the rulebook tells you to do it this way. In retrospect, it's a bit much - it weird how you get very little skill increase but a ginormous RP increase from age. One of older PCs aged out of his Damage Bonus during play and could no longer wear a full bronze armor, which was a fun effect.

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

No one is a Rune Level in my game yet. How long did it take in your games?

No-one is yet, but it's certainly not Rune Points that holds them back (both 18 POW and 18 CHA are harsh restrictions). One PC could get his shaman initiation at any point, and I believe one PC qualifies for God-Talker but needs to get the framework and economic support into place first.

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Do you have characters with this level of magic? When have you used a +500% Sword trance? has anyone?

No-one is Humakti, so no. Problem spells so far have been spamming Thunderbolt (when two PCs just pour on the Thunderbolts, virtually nothing can stand up to it) and how a Bless Crops 10 basically invalidates the need for any farming skill whatsoever.

The house rule I'm using now is that no-one can spend more than half (rounded up) of their RPs on a stackable Rune Spell.  

I know someone else had players doing a +1000% Sword Trance, which nets you a crit of 50%!

Edited June 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

59 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sure, but if they did, you agree that it's good if the rules cover it and don't break down?

I've never actually come across players going into this level of detail, it's not my experience to even hear of this level of conjecture except in this forum. Same with all the other games I play. Most of my players would bring up a credibility check if ever this happened - like the Fiasco card:

I realise that people play games differently, but often in this forum when it comes to the rules, it's more often down to How many angels can dance on the head of a pin, than making a GM decision in a live game. Fortunately @Jason D summed it up in System Crash, saying 

Quote

The play is the thing, not getting it “right”

I'm right behind him.

[Austin]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

No one is a Rune Level in my game yet. How long did it take in your games?

My campaign has played a year and a half, give or take, with weekly sessions ranging from 3 to 6 hours. Gaining experience checks probably every 3 or 4 sessions (I haven't tracked how long the "average" adventure takes us, though we aren't super-inclined to hours of roleplaying at the table). My players overwhelmingly prefer to sacrifice POW for Rune points and enchantments (from the spirit magic spells, which you can purchase, and are priced as being pretty trivial spells). We have no Rune Masters yet, though the Issaries merchant is close (just needs to get himself up to 18 POW I think), and the old-start Humakti is also close.

My typical player floats around 8-14 POW to optimize POW Gain rolls.

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sure, but if they did, you agree that it's good if the rules cover it and don't break down?

I've never actually come across players going into this level of detail, it's not my experience to even hear of this level of conjecture except in this forum.

It is literally something my players read the rulebook, saw, and then did.

They have a magic point enchantment with 15+ POW sacrificed into it from multiple entities, which provides over 100 magic points. My campaign's the one Akhorahil mentions with Sword Trance 1000%. I explicitly told them I was gonna let them get away with big Extension'd Sword Trance exactly once, before putting a banhammer on it. Preeeeetty much by GM fiat, if I'm honest.

They also determined that there's no reason you can't command a controlled spirit to sacrifice its POW into an enchantment, provided it was a spirit they didn't care about. I made it very clear to them after they did this once that if they ever did it again, they'd likely suffer in-world karmic consequences for fuckin' with the Universe in such an evil manner. If I ever start a new campaign, I'm removing the "others can add POW to enchantments" rule, or maybe restricting it to "only members of the same cult" so initiates can donate to a Rune Master.

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Crel said:

My typical player floats around 8-14 POW to optimize POW Gain rolls.

13 is a really great number - you have okay spellcasting and POW gain, you're not yet above 95% chance to overcome POW for typical POW 7 enemies, and you just hit the skill modifier threshold. Although aiming for 18 is important if anyone is looking for God-Talker.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I've never actually come across players going into this level of detail, it's not my experience to even hear of this level of conjecture except in this forum.

Well, I mean... let's say someone is going up against a better opponent in a Humakti duel. While these things aren't supposed to go to the death, they easily can. I think it's completely reasonable if the player pulls out all the stops trying to win it, and that includes pushing Sword Trance as high as can be afforded. RQ isn't fair nor balanced when it comes to the opposition, and I wouldn't want to tell a player to knock it off when they're doing things that are completely supported by the rules in order to survive and that the PC would be fully aware of. It's the business of the rules to be written in ways that make them difficult to abuse. Saying that the GM can keep all that in line is just lazy rules writing - the GM can do anything, and we're buying rules so that we don't have to make it all up, and should be able to expect that they're functional. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'd like to see some of these adventurers and hear what kind of high power games you are running where these rules become important.

My RQG game is on hiatus as I'm stuck in France, but my previous RQ3 game would have been quite different if this rule had been a thing. It only takes a few spare MP to make the difference between a spell being dismissed or not, it doesn't have to be a silly high level game. Particularly sorcery, if you can dump a few spare MP on top of a Boon of Kargan Tor then why not do so?

[GAZZA]

@David Scott my campaign has 4 players, it's been going about a dozen sessions. There are a total of 7 PCs (I have different groups in case one of the players isn't available), and I'm playing RQ2/3 converted material in Prax for the most part set in 1616 - not obscure stuff, just River of Cradles and Borderlands. There's at least 3 MP stores (not crystals, surprisingly, they're all matrices) that have been found so far (some haven't yet been identified as such) and that's not counting the ones that they had to hand over to Duke Raus. They're not that uncommon.

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

My RQG game is on hiatus as I'm stuck in France, but my previous RQ3 game would have been quite different if this rule had been a thing. It only takes a few spare MP to make the difference between a spell being dismissed or not, it doesn't have to be a silly high level game. Particularly sorcery, if you can dump a few spare MP on top of a Boon of Kargan Tor then why not do so?

Yes, Sorcery explicitly rewards you for hoarding as many MP as possible.