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Dinosaurs ... Dragon(ewt)s? Maran Gor?


g33k

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1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Of course, even if they look alike and are capable of mating, that does not mean that they are fertile matings. Different origins might imply infertility, or at best a mulish infertile offspring. 

Or it may not.

Most of the strains of Gloranthan humans (if widely different source) appear to be interfertile...

Barring some reason to the contrary, I will presume the same for each of the species of dinosaur.

YGWV.

Edit to add:  there will certainly, In My Glorantha, be instances of such "reasons to the contrary."

Edited by g33k
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As a useful addition, I bought a pre-copy of the upcoming Gods of Glorantha supplement and it does mention Maran Gor as specifically having mated with Hykim to produce Dinosaurs, and having a Control Dinosaur spell.  So I guess I was wrong about that, and some of the guesswork has been taken out about the mysterious Earth Goddess who mated with a dragon to make dinosaurs.  As a side issue, it also means that the dark earth isn't necessarily infertile, which is interesting.

Edited by Darius West
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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

it also means that the dark earth isn't necessarily infertile, which is interesting.

IMG the deep tantra of it is that you don't have any children right now.

TKT is past all of this. She's never coming back to Fertility and is focused on the world beyond. BBG refuses motherhood for compelling biographical reasons. And MG in the middle started out like Ernalda, suffered losses and became angry. Initiates can cross back and forth depending on circumstances and their own needs.

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6 hours ago, Darius West said:

  As a side issue, it also means that the dark earth isn't necessarily infertile, which is interesting.

Maran has always been the dark mother. The one who eats her boy babies, or similar stuff, but a mother nonetheless.

She is a giver of fertility for battlegrounds - the bloodier the battle, the better the harvest. Life given for life taken. And that's of course a perfect hanger for Hon-eel's maize rites which work along the same principle.

 

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

TKT is past all of this. She's never coming back to Fertility and is focused on the world beyond

Asrelia is as infertile as TKT. That's what the crone is about. Babs is the maiden, and has no business bearing children, just like Voria doesn't. Maran on the other hand is the mother, and an infertile mother is something unworkable.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Maran has always been the dark mother. The one who eats her boy babies, or similar stuff, but a mother nonetheless.

 

Eating of children is a trait often associated with sows in folklore, at least as far as I know. Just to add to the whole pig cult complex around Dragon Pass (and likely elsewhere).

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On 1/20/2020 at 1:23 AM, Darius West said:

As a useful addition, I bought a pre-copy of the upcoming Gods of Glorantha supplement and it does mention Maran Gor as specifically having mated with Hykim to produce Dinosaurs

...

TYVM!  That is indeed useful!

So I think we now have current "canon" which states (at least) 2 sources for Dino's -- M.Gor X Hykim, & Dragonewts (strayed from the Draconic Path).  What's the most recent source stating that Dragons can "devolve"?  Any other sources for dino's ever appear in canon?  I'm guessing that there's some ordinary "animal descent" just like almost every other other Mikyh/Hykim animal (this will likely be the case IMG ... possibly depending on whether canon (or the extended community here) comes up with some sort of particularly-interesting myth on the topic! ) .   There are the Jaskali dino-hsunchen, although the Glorantha Wiki tells me they don't shapechange into dino's; did they used to do so?  What happened?

I do not believe we have any canon which unambiguously states whether differently-sourced dino's can interbreed (or can do so fertilely); nor whether any particular species come from a unique source (e.g. maybe all large carnivorous dino's are draco-sourced?), or whether some species DON'T come from a given source (e.g. M.Gor originated nothing whose adult is smaller than a horse, that being the minimum size to "shake the earth"), etc etc etc...  Canon being silent on this, I guess we have to say:  ALL Glorantha's Will Vary.

Edited by g33k
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I still think it's less a case of multiple sources and more a case of multiple perspectives on the same source. THe GaGoG has a theistic slant, and a God Learner/Esrolian Knowledge Temple one as well, so it makes sense to emphasise the genealogical perspective.

 

Are the Jaskali dino-Hsunchen descended from escaped slaves of the Mostali or am I imagining that?

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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8 hours ago, g33k said:

What's the most recent source stating that Dragons can "devolve"?

That could be the Guide, with dinosaurs descended from dragonewts p.79.

Rather than "devolved", the lesser draconic species are all labeled "neotenic" instead.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That could be the Guide, with dinosaurs descended from dragonewts p.79.

Rather than "devolved", the lesser draconic species are all labeled "neotenic" instead.

That'd be the dragonewt instance, that we already knew:  "neotenic" means the adults never gain fully-adult features, keeping "juvenile" (aka dragonewt) features into adulthood.

Someone upthread alleged (I thought) an actual "devolution" path -- where a dragon strayed from the Draconic Way, & became a Dino -- existed in canon.  But maybe I mis-read...?

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5 minutes ago, g33k said:

Someone upthread alleged (I thought) an actual "devolution" path -- where a dragon strayed from the Draconic Way, & became a Dino -- existed in canon.  But maybe I mis-read...?

Dragonewts who stray too far from the path can be reborn as dinosaurs, usually by being overcome with a single emotion (or power rune perhaps?) that determines the type of dino they become. This has been an established part of canon. These "new" dinosaurs can breed with others of their species, but are intelligent and carnivorous despite what their species norm is. Any children will be normal dinosaurs, however.

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

That'd be the dragonewt instance, that we already knew:  "neotenic" means the adults never gain fully-adult features, keeping "juvenile" (aka dragonewt) features into adulthood.

Only the dragonewt species is a larval stage of True Dragonhood when it doesn't fall prey to entanglements that lead to magisaurs or dinosaurism. A dragonewt is by definition a transitional stage between egg and True Dragon.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Someone upthread alleged (I thought) an actual "devolution" path -- where a dragon strayed from the Draconic Way, & became a Dino -- existed in canon.  But maybe I mis-read...?

The dinosaur reference in the Guide is in the Dragons section rather than in the Dragonewts section. That section mentions successfully ascended dragonewts that participated in Godtime as True Dragons, like Genert's ally "All Eyes Open Except One" who had been born a dragonewt.

The wyverns are a devolved expression of the draconic dream that has become a regular specis of the setting. It is possible that dream dragons like the one in the Colymar Adverntures book in the GM Screen package are capable of producing corporeal offspring, too. It isn't clear how, but the Second Council of the Theyalans did create the species of wyverns which are fairly similar in size and mental capacities to the dream dragons I have seen.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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